Is hell good or bad?

[Guest end3]

My feeling is this.....and it sounds nuts.....but I have my reasons for thinking so.  I expect when we die this death, the consciousness we retain has the ability to see the end game of those with our current consciousness.  In other words, we can't omnisciently see, but will be able to gain some upon physical death.  Sounds crazy and it might be...but there is a whole host of people trying to gain a greater consciousness now.   Thanks, going to go take my pills now.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

26 minutes ago, end3 said:

I've already said it was a necessity, imo, that God allow evil for a purpose.  I guess the question is do we have free will or not.  If I am predestined, then I don't know it. You?

No.  You are talking out of both sides of your mouth, End3.  You say god gave us a choice whether to choose evil or not.  You also say it was a necessity for god to subject us to evil.  You can't have it both ways.  Either we really are free to make our own decisions, in which case god is evil to punish us for using the free will he gave us; or we simply get what god subjects is to, in which case god is evil for subjecting us to evil.

[Guest end3]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  You are talking out of both sides of your mouth, End3.  You say god gave us a choice whether to choose evil or not.  You also say it was a necessity for god to subject us to evil.  You can't have it both ways.  Either we really are free to make our own decisions, in which case god is evil to punish us for using the free will he gave us; or we simply get what god subjects is to, in which case god is evil for subjecting us to evil.

I think you are misunderstanding slightly.

 

What I am saying is we have a choice WITHIN the non-choice of good and evil.  We don't have the absolute choice of good or evil, i.e. an existence where there is one or the other.

 

 

[mymistake]

43 minutes ago, end3 said:

I've already said it was a necessity, imo, that God allow evil for a purpose.  I guess the question is do we have free will or not.  If I am predestined, then I don't know it. You?

 

Free will and predestination are both wrong.  Both doctrines exclude the obvious - that nobody is running the universe but human brains are biological machines.

 

 

And if evil was necessity for God then God is not all-mighty.

[Guest end3]

16 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  You are talking out of both sides of your mouth, End3.  You say god gave us a choice whether to choose evil or not.  You also say it was a necessity for god to subject us to evil.  You can't have it both ways.  Either we really are free to make our own decisions, in which case god is evil to punish us for using the free will he gave us; or we simply get what god subjects is to, in which case god is evil for subjecting us to evil.

And if you will notice, God did give A&E free will to choose and they opted not to.  How could they weigh the options if they weren't exposed to both?  There's the answer to your question....

[mymistake]

1 minute ago, end3 said:

And if you will notice, God did give A&E free will to choose and they opted not to.  How could they weigh the options if they weren't exposed to both?  There's the answer to your question....

 

 

What the heck?  God told them that if they eat from the tree then billions of their descendents would be born into sin and then would have to spend all eternity in Hell unless they say a pledge of allegiance to Jesus?  Did he also warn them that Jesus would leave no objective evidence and there would be thousands of false religions to lead people away so only a tiny fraction of humans would be saved?

 

Genesis doesn't say anything like that because the theology wasn't invented until almost a thousand years after Genesis was written.

 

Remember that making choices is not free will.  Free will means you have to understand the consequences.  You must really know God is real (even if you say you don't) and you must really know God is good and loving (even if you say you don't) and then you choose to go to hell so you can reject God.  That is the myth of free will.

 

 

[Guest end3]

4 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

 

What the heck?  God told them that if they eat from the tree then billions of their descendents would be born into sin and then would have to spend all eternity in Hell unless they say a pledge of allegiance to Jesus?  Did he also warn them that Jesus would leave no objective evidence and there would be thousands of false religions to lead people away so only a tiny fraction of humans would be saved?

 

Genesis doesn't say anything like that because the theology wasn't invented until almost a thousand years after Genesis was written.

 

Remember that making choices is not free will.  Free will means you have to understand the consequences.  You must really know God is real (even if you say you don't) and you must really know God is good and loving (even if you say you don't) and then you choose to go to hell so you can reject God.  That is the myth of free will.

 

 

No,  they failed a very simple test of free will.  What more was required?  And the story purports that humanity keeps failing the free will test.  You act like had they known the end, it would have made a difference.  Your own free will now is a prime example of you knowing the end and choosing otherwise.

[mwc]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

I've already said it was a necessity, imo, that God allow evil for a purpose.  I guess the question is do we have free will or not.  If I am predestined, then I don't know it. You?

     Free will and predestination aren't really factors prior to creation except if we're talking about these things in relation to a god.  Is that the case?

 

     Did god have the free will to create evil or was god predestined to create evil?

 

     If god is perfect, and god never changes, then it stands to reason that anything that god thinks is perfect and never changes.  So could god think of more a single plan for creation?  It would seem that the first thought, the first plan, would be the perfect plan and therefor the only plan for creation.  There could be no revision as that would render the first thought, the first plan, imperfect.

 

     This would be true not only for the creation but for all things.  Once a plan is devised there can be no deviation from that plan.  Once god thought up the plan for the universe, including its start, everything in it, and its ultimate end then it follows that there is nothing, at all, at that point that could deviate from that plan including god itself less god render his own plan imperfect which is impossible by definition.

 

     So, since god is the first and only cause, he is the one that imagined evil, "the fall," and all the rest.  He imagined this and it was both good and perfect by definition.  He was the source of these things before they were even created.  Before anyone or anything else could even imagine them.  God is the origin of evil.  Human free will is an illusion.

 

          mwc

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

I think you are misunderstanding slightly.

 

What I am saying is we have a choice WITHIN the non-choice of good and evil.  We don't have the absolute choice of good or evil, i.e. an existence where there is one or the other.

 

 

And what I'm saying is that god DID have the choice to create an existence where there was one or the other; and he chose to subject us to evil.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

52 minutes ago, end3 said:

No,  they failed a very simple test of free will.  What more was required?  And the story purports that humanity keeps failing the free will test.  You act like had they known the end, it would have made a difference.  Your own free will now is a prime example of you knowing the end and choosing otherwise.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.  Genesis 3:4-5

 

Read the bible, End3.  Not only did they not know the end; they didn't even understand the difference between the very things they were supposed to choose from.  Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, no way of understanding the difference between the two.  Yet god demanded they make that choice and he hung the fate of all humanity upon their choice made in ignorance.  Your god is nothing short of pure, unadulterated evil.

[mymistake]

10 hours ago, end3 said:

No,  they failed a very simple test of free will.  What more was required?  And the story purports that humanity keeps failing the free will test.  You act like had they known the end, it would have made a difference.  Your own free will now is a prime example of you knowing the end and choosing otherwise.

 

Sorry but what exactly do I know?  The end of what?  What do you mean and how do I know it?  And this is extra rich, why would I choose the opposite of what I know?

 

What in the world is a "free will test"? 

 

10 hours ago, end3 said:

You act like had they known the end, it would have made a difference.

 

Nope.  The story is fiction.  The author made A&E ignorant of theology that wasn't invented until centuries later because the author was ignorant of it as well.  But if he had made up the theology himself the story wouldn't be that much different.  By the time the Romans wanted a new religion they might have picked entirely different beliefs and your religion might be something else.  However it would still have the same hypocrisy and problems all false religions have.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

How could they weigh the options if they weren't exposed to both?

Exactly.  But god expected them to make the choice anyway; and then condemned us all to eternal hellfire and brimstone because they weren't given the opportunity to even make an educated guess, let alone a qualified decision.

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, mymistake said:

...

Nope.  The story is fiction.  The author made A&E ignorant of theology that wasn't invented until centuries later because the author was ignorant of it as well.  But if he had made up the theology himself the story wouldn't be that much different.  By the time the Romans wanted a new religion they might have picked entirely different beliefs and your religion might be something else.  However it would still have the same hypocrisy and problems all false religions have.

 

A bit of reality is always helpful.

[mymistake]

On 3/26/2018 at 12:57 PM, mymistake said:

 

Sorry but what exactly do I know?  The end of what?  What do you mean and how do I know it?  And this is extra rich, why would I choose the opposite of what I know?

 

What in the world is a "free will test"?  

 

(crickets chirp)

 

I guess I will never find out what I already know.

[Thumbelina]

On 3/21/2018 at 3:28 PM, TrueScotsman said:

Didn't get what message?  The one left by anonymous ancient authors who wrote as human beings?  Why would a god make us trust in second hand anonymous reports from fellow fallible human beings in order to justify our eternal destiny?  Why not send Jesus now in 2018 when the majority of mankind could have made such a decision of sufficient evidence to trust or not trust his message?  Why send him to an illiterate remote location in the Middle East and have no contemporaries report on such events?  

 

Even if God was to manifest  Himself, human nature will cause them to be like the mixed multitude that left Egypt with the Israelites, many will become timeservers. God ONLY wants to be worshipped based on love. Also, Satan will fool people who depend on signs to believe in a creator. He will perform miracles & appear as an angel of light & therefore deceive many.

 

Hmmmm, I dunno, skeptics want evidence & claim that they don't believe in having faith, yet they have faith that:

Nothing produced everything

Non life produced life

Randomness produced fine tuning

Chaos produced information

Unconsciousness produced consciousness

Non reason produced reason

 

Non of the above has been observable, testable, repeatable & they are not allowed to be falsifiable because atheistic scientists use scientific gobbledygook to intimidate & confuse people. So their interpretation of how this universe came about is not empirical science but historical science & just like creationists, they believe by FAITH.

 

I prefer to believe in a loving God & savior through personal experiences, biblical evidences & observing the world etc. than to have nihilistic beliefs & the like.

 

 

 

[Thumbelina]

On 3/26/2018 at 3:50 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.  Genesis 3:4-5

 

Read the bible, End3.  Not only did they not know the end; they didn't even understand the difference between the very things they were supposed to choose from.  Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, no way of understanding the difference between the two.  Yet god demanded they make that choice and he hung the fate of all humanity upon their choice made in ignorance.  Your god is nothing short of pure, unadulterated evil.

 

Adam & Eve did not really have a frame of reference for understanding what evil was or the extent of how necessary it is to obey God which is why God gave them another chance. Mercy said no, I'm not going to let you go ..., that's why her & Adam did not die immediately but they surely died. Eve was deceived. However, there was no excuse or reason for disobedience, they were ungrateful which is why they sinned.

Hell isn't prepared for humans, it's for the devil & his angels (Google the text). Any person that ends up there (when it is manifested I.e.)  will be there because they totally aligned themselves with Satan & spurned God's love & grace. God has to test creatures in order to know if they would like immortality to be imparted to them. Could parents ask a zygote if it wants to live? When the child is born & can eventually reason he/she can choose to live & not commit suicide.

[Axelle]

''It's really quite pleasant, except for the smeeell!!''

[mwc]

4 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

Even if God was to manifest  Himself, human nature will cause them to be like the mixed multitude that left Egypt with the Israelites, many will become timeservers. God ONLY wants to be worshipped based on love. Also, Satan will fool people who depend on signs to believe in a creator. He will perform miracles & appear as an angel of light & therefore deceive many.

 

     So basically the story of jesus?

 

          mwc

 

[mwc]

57 minutes ago, Axelle said:

''It's really quite pleasant, except for the smeeell!!''

     Sounds like my pitch for anal sex to the wife.

 

          mwc

 

[Axelle]

1 hour ago, mwc said:

     Sounds like my pitch for anal sex to the wife.

 

          mwc

 

Hmmm it's from a song by My Chemical Romance 

[mwc]

11 minutes ago, Axelle said:

Hmmm it's from a song by My Chemical Romance 

     How do they know what I've said to my wife?

 

          mwc

 

[disillusioned]

Just now, mwc said:

     How do they know what I've said to my wife?

 

          mwc

 

 

Ummm.... The song is called Mama.

 

You ok mwc?

[mwc]

1 minute ago, disillusioned said:

 

Ummm.... The song is called Mama.

 

You ok mwc?

     Who are they?  What do they know?

 

          mwc

 

[mymistake]

On 5/5/2018 at 9:56 PM, Thumbelina said:

 

Even if God was to manifest  Himself, human nature will cause them to be like the mixed multitude that left Egypt with the Israelites, many will become timeservers. God ONLY wants to be worshipped based on love. Also, Satan will fool people who depend on signs to believe in a creator. He will perform miracles & appear as an angel of light & therefore deceive many.

 

 

If God wants to be worshiped (really, is that fair?) based on love then why doesn't God actually come down here and have a real relationship with humans?  I mean a real one, not one we have to imagine.  The relationship you have with God you could just as easily have with Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter.  The human does all the work using the imagination while God pretends to be a dead beat who never calls, never texts and doesn't even send a post card.  No, the Bible doesn't count because God had other people write it.  Why can't God even bother to write something all by himself?  This is not a relationship. 

 

Now, if Superman showed up and caught all the violent criminals, reduced the casualties from most major disasters and helped kittens down from trees he would be loved because he actually did something for us and we didn't have to imagine it.  Superman hears people who cry out to him because Superman has super hearing.  If you are in trouble and call out to Superman he doesn't stand there and watch.  Too bad Superman isn't real either.

 

 

On 5/5/2018 at 9:56 PM, Thumbelina said:

Hmmmm, I dunno, skeptics want evidence & claim that they don't believe in having faith, yet they have faith that:

Nothing produced everything

Non life produced life

Randomness produced fine tuning

Chaos produced information

Unconsciousness produced consciousness

Non reason produced reason

 

No, none of those things are based in faith.  First of all skeptics don't believe "nothing produced everything".  Non-life produced life is the best explanation for how life came to be.  There is no fine tuning.  Perhaps you don't know what information means.  An explosion does produce information.  Consciousness is an emerging property as is reason.

 

None of that is faith based.  None.

 

 

On 5/5/2018 at 9:56 PM, Thumbelina said:

Non of the above has been observable, testable, repeatable & they are not allowed to be falsifiable because atheistic scientists use scientific gobbledygook to intimidate & confuse people. So their interpretation of how this universe came about is not empirical science but historical science & just like creationists, they believe by FAITH.

 

Nonsense!  We observe empirical evidence all the time.  Some of it leads to conclusion that are on your list.  We test ideas.  We repeat the tests.  Ideas that fail get discarded.  

 

That you feel intimidated or confused doesn't make it faith.  And none of it was handed down from on high though prophesy.  We observe, we test, we repeat.  Ignorance doesn't change the nature of science, especially willful ignorance.

[Thumbelina]

Look, I am not a scientist but I'm not impressed with or intimidated by high sounding atheistic gobbledygook. 

Atheists are trying to disprove God by faith just as believers believe in a creator God by faith. It is not blind faith to believe in God, it is based on evidence.

 

God did leave a cloud of witnesses & their accounts are written in the bible.

Skeptics will believe in the annals of Tacitus & other historical writings but they refuse to believe the biblical narrative. God is selfless, He is meek & lowly; when He declares His supremacy it's not about ego, it's about facts. He alone is innately immortal & holy so when He declares His power it's to preserve & protect His creation; obeying Him implicitly is what will cause peace.

 

Satan & his imps show up as deceased loved ones (many religions think the dead are not really dead) of people. They may show up as extraterrestrials too. Bible believers ought to know that this planet is under quarantine & beings from other worlds, except holy angels, do not come into our sphere. We have a contagion called sin, they can observe us from a distance only (see the account in the book of Job).

 

Atheistic gobbledygook says that all that we are now started from nothing with no intelligence behind it, I even heard it on National Geographic some years ago. An atheistic high priest said so too:

 

 

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going." Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinov, The Grand Design
 

 

http://thedivinemercy.org/videos/Physics-and-the-Self-Creating-Universe-5602

 

Non life producing life is not logical. The chicken came before the egg, God made it so.

 

 

Hawking fails logic and meta-science

 

"self-creation’ is self-contradictory. Something can do something—including create—only if it exists; something not yet existing has no power to do anything, including create itself." 

https://creation.com/stephen-hawking-god
 

 

Even the claim that scientists created life in the laboratory, isn't the scientist supposed to just sit back & observe something coming from nothing instead of him being the intelligence manipulating the event? lol

 

 

If one follows atheistic thinking to its logical conclusion it will make one most miserable. This life is too short, many die prematurely & the injustices on this planet is enough to make one lose heart. ... but there is a Creator who loves us & wants to save us.