theanticrash

Is hell good or bad?

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10 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

Even if God was to manifest  Himself, human nature will cause them to be like the mixed multitude that left Egypt with the Israelites, many will become timeservers. God ONLY wants to be worshipped based on love.

 

 

 

He wants to be worshipped based upon love, so he hides and sent anonymous non-eye witness authors to testify to us.  Sounds like a sick game to bet on the eternal destiny of billions of people, for the sake of his ego.

 

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Also, Satan will fool people who depend on signs to believe in a creator. He will perform miracles & appear as an angel of light & therefore deceive many.

Heck, it seems that Satan doesn't exist then too, since there are no legitimate documented miracles having ever taken place.  

 

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Hmmmm, I dunno, skeptics want evidence & claim that they don't believe in having faith, yet they have faith that:

Here come the standard ignorant apologetics.

 

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Nothing produced everything

Obviously there is a quantum realm where the universe emerged from, whether this is some kind of quantum vacuum that existed for who knows how long (if time is even appropriate to use in this context), the truth of it is, we don't know exactly how the universe got here.  I'm still open to learning more about it, you're the one who has complete faith that god produced everything.

 

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Non life produced life

Life is based upon chemistry, which is the interaction of atoms created by the stars, all you need is the proper settings for such organic molecules to organize into self replicating RNA.  We of course don't know all the details, since there aren't any fossils until 600,000 million years ago, but it is likely this happened near hydrothermal vents in the ocean.  Your ignorance regarding abiogenesis doesn't mean it didn't happen, and it is far more likely the case than any kind of special creation, for which there is zero evidence.

 

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Randomness produced fine tuning

This we simply don't know about, is there a multiverse, is the universe even finely tuned (like some kind of mechanical structure?).  No it seems that the universe was not finely tuned for life, which is why most of it is utterly lifeless and indeed hostile to life that exists on this planet or elsewhere.

 

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Chaos produced information

What does this even mean?  Don't know if you've ever taken a course on Organic Chemistry, but the interactions of organic molecules are not governed by chaos.  

 

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Unconsciousness produced consciousness

Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain, which has been evolving for hundreds of millions of years.  Evolution, open a book sometime and read about it.

 

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Non reason produced reason

Well, we do have your post as exhibit A of such a phenomenon taking place.

 

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Non of the above has been observable, testable, repeatable & they are not allowed to be falsifiable because atheistic scientists use scientific gobbledygook to intimidate & confuse people. 

Plenty of tests have been performed to validate aspects of scientists theories regarding the above list, organic chemistry has even been found in space conditions by radio astronomy recently.  We can't go back in time to the beginning of the universe or the beginning of life, which gives you a gap to insert your god.  I assert there is only one world, the natural world, and I am doing my best to understand, not deny that world.

 

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So their interpretation of how this universe came about is not empirical science but historical science & just like creationists, they believe by FAITH.

Okay Frank Turek, have any original arguments?  It is about confidence in the evidence, not faith, I have more confidence when there is more evidence, many of the areas you pointed out we are still learning about and you are jumping to a conclusion that we have it all settled and based upon faith.  You are the one who has faith that god did all of that, stop deluding yourself with your projections.

 

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I prefer to believe in a loving God & savior through personal experiences, biblical evidences & observing the world etc. than to have nihilistic beliefs & the like.

Just because there isn't some invisible god saying he cares about us, doesn't mean all meaning in life is empty.  You exist don't you?  You prefer a fantasy over reality though, and that's okay, you're free to do so.  You're not free to twist that said reality and make it apply to the rest of us though, especially when you have NO EVIDENCE.

 

Better luck next time, maybe something original.

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On 5/5/2018 at 9:56 PM, Thumbelina said:

 

Even if God was to manifest  Himself, human nature will cause them to be like the mixed multitude that left Egypt with the Israelites, many will become timeservers. God ONLY wants to be worshipped based on love. Also, Satan will fool people who depend on signs to believe in a creator. He will perform miracles & appear as an angel of light & therefore deceive many.

 

 

If God wants to be worshiped (really, is that fair?) based on love then why doesn't God actually come down here and have a real relationship with humans?  I mean a real one, not one we have to imagine.  The relationship you have with God you could just as easily have with Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter.  The human does all the work using the imagination while God pretends to be a dead beat who never calls, never texts and doesn't even send a post card.  No, the Bible doesn't count because God had other people write it.  Why can't God even bother to write something all by himself?  This is not a relationship. 

 

Now, if Superman showed up and caught all the violent criminals, reduced the casualties from most major disasters and helped kittens down from trees he would be loved because he actually did something for us and we didn't have to imagine it.  Superman hears people who cry out to him because Superman has super hearing.  If you are in trouble and call out to Superman he doesn't stand there and watch.  Too bad Superman isn't real either.

 

 

On 5/5/2018 at 9:56 PM, Thumbelina said:

Hmmmm, I dunno, skeptics want evidence & claim that they don't believe in having faith, yet they have faith that:

Nothing produced everything

Non life produced life

Randomness produced fine tuning

Chaos produced information

Unconsciousness produced consciousness

Non reason produced reason

 

No, none of those things are based in faith.  First of all skeptics don't believe "nothing produced everything".  Non-life produced life is the best explanation for how life came to be.  There is no fine tuning.  Perhaps you don't know what information means.  An explosion does produce information.  Consciousness is an emerging property as is reason.

 

None of that is faith based.  None.

 

 

On 5/5/2018 at 9:56 PM, Thumbelina said:

Non of the above has been observable, testable, repeatable & they are not allowed to be falsifiable because atheistic scientists use scientific gobbledygook to intimidate & confuse people. So their interpretation of how this universe came about is not empirical science but historical science & just like creationists, they believe by FAITH.

 

Nonsense!  We observe empirical evidence all the time.  Some of it leads to conclusion that are on your list.  We test ideas.  We repeat the tests.  Ideas that fail get discarded.  

 

That you feel intimidated or confused doesn't make it faith.  And none of it was handed down from on high though prophesy.  We observe, we test, we repeat.  Ignorance doesn't change the nature of science, especially willful ignorance.

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Look, I am not a scientist but I'm not impressed with or intimidated by high sounding atheistic gobbledygook. 

Atheists are trying to disprove God by faith just as believers believe in a creator God by faith. It is not blind faith to believe in God, it is based on evidence.

 

God did leave a cloud of witnesses & their accounts are written in the bible.

Skeptics will believe in the annals of Tacitus & other historical writings but they refuse to believe the biblical narrative. God is selfless, He is meek & lowly; when He declares His supremacy it's not about ego, it's about facts. He alone is innately immortal & holy so when He declares His power it's to preserve & protect His creation; obeying Him implicitly is what will cause peace.

 

Satan & his imps show up as deceased loved ones (many religions think the dead are not really dead) of people. They may show up as extraterrestrials too. Bible believers ought to know that this planet is under quarantine & beings from other worlds, except holy angels, do not come into our sphere. We have a contagion called sin, they can observe us from a distance only (see the account in the book of Job).

 

Atheistic gobbledygook says that all that we are now started from nothing with no intelligence behind it, I even heard it on National Geographic some years ago. An atheistic high priest said so too:

 

 


"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going." Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinov, The Grand Design
 

 

http://thedivinemercy.org/videos/Physics-and-the-Self-Creating-Universe-5602

 

Non life producing life is not logical. The chicken came before the egg, God made it so.

 

 

Hawking fails logic and meta-science

 

"self-creation’ is self-contradictory. Something can do something—including create—only if it exists; something not yet existing has no power to do anything, including create itself." 


https://creation.com/stephen-hawking-god
 

 

Even the claim that scientists created life in the laboratory, isn't the scientist supposed to just sit back & observe something coming from nothing instead of him being the intelligence manipulating the event? lol

 

 

If one follows atheistic thinking to its logical conclusion it will make one most miserable. This life is too short, many die prematurely & the injustices on this planet is enough to make one lose heart. ... but there is a Creator who loves us & wants to save us.

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Thumbelina, even if disbelief was faith (Pro tip #1:  It isn't!) I vastly prefer it to your idea of faith.  I have always seen your god and the Bible stories as fictional, and I don't expect that to change.

 

Your god, if it exists, knows what we will find convincing.  (Pro tip #2:  Your testimony is not it.)

 

Rail at us all you like.  It won't save you when you reach the end of your days and your brain dies.  Your fate is identical to ours, and faith has nothing to do with it.

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24 minutes ago, Astreja said:

Thumbelina, even if disbelief was faith (Pro tip #1:  It isn't!) I vastly prefer it to your idea of faith.  I have always seen your god and the Bible stories as fictional, and I don't expect that to change.

 

Your god, if it exists, knows what we will find convincing.  (Pro tip #2:  Your testimony is not it.)

 

Rail at us all you like.  It won't save you when you reach the end of your days and your brain dies.  Your fate is identical to ours, and faith has nothing to do with it.

Hello. Long time no see.

I'm not railing, the bible says Christians shouldn't be railers 😉 😃.

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1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Look, I am not a scientist but I'm not impressed with or intimidated by high sounding atheistic gobbledygook.  

 

Are you talking about facts and logic?

 

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Atheists are trying to disprove God by faith . . . 

 

This is not true.  Isn't bearing false witness a sin in your religion?

 

 

Thumbelina said:

 

"God did leave a cloud of witnesses & their accounts are written in the bible."

 

But the Bible looks like it's just a story.  If it is just a story then the witnesses are made up.  See how this is not evidence?  If you want to persuade then where is the evidence that the Bible was more than a made up story?

 

 

Thumbelina said:

 

"Skeptics will believe in the annals of Tacitus & other historical writings but they refuse to believe the biblical narrative."

 

Correct, because the first has strong supporting evidence but the second doesn't.  See the difference?  Following the evidence is not faith.

 

 

 

Thumbelina said:

"God is selfless, He is meek & lowly; when He declares His supremacy it's not about ego, it's about facts. He alone is innately immortal & holy so when He declares His power it's to preserve & protect His creation; obeying Him implicitly is what will cause peace."

 

But you are not presenting facts.  Facts are things we can verify.  That is how we know they are facts.  What you list off here are your beliefs about God.  Again the difference between faith and evidence.  Also when the Church ruled the entire Western world and everyone was a Christian the result was not peace.  That is history.  The middle ages were full of wars and conflict.

 

 

Thumbelina said:

 

"Satan & his imps show up as deceased loved ones (many religions think the dead are not really dead) of people. They may show up as extraterrestrials too. Bible believers ought to know that this planet is under quarantine & beings from other worlds, except holy angels, do not come into our sphere. We have a contagion called sin, they can observe us from a distance only (see the account in the book of Job)."

 

Sounds like you have read C. S. Lewis' space trilogy.  I have as well.  I use to love that author.

 

 

Thumbelina said:

"An atheistic high priest said so too:"

 

You are bearing false witness again.  Is that still a sin?

 

 

Thumbelina said:

"Non life producing life is not logical."

 

Sure it is, if that is the nature of the universe.

 

 

Thumbelina said:

"Hawking fails logic and meta-science"

 

I don't know what you mean by meta-science but you seem to be confused about logic.

 

 

Thumbelina said:

"Even the claim that scientists created life in the laboratory, isn't the scientist supposed to just sit back & observe something coming from nothing instead of him being the intelligence manipulating the event?"

 

I don't think they created life in the lab yet.  But you can't observe anything come from nothing if nothing does not exist.  That is the problem with "something from nothing".  When is there ever nothing?  The concept of nothing might be a myth.

 

Thumbelina said:

"If one follows atheistic thinking to its logical conclusion it will make one most miserable."

 

 

Maybe, but happiness isn't evidence of truth.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 5/8/2018 at 8:16 PM, Thumbelina said:

If one follows atheistic thinking to its logical conclusion it will make one most miserable. This life is too short, many die prematurely & the injustices on this planet is enough to make one lose heart. ... but there is a Creator who loves us & wants to save us.

 

If one follows Christian thinking to its logical conclusion one will obsess about an imaginary being all day long.

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On 5/8/2018 at 8:16 PM, Thumbelina said:

Look, I am not a scientist but I'm not impressed with or intimidated by high sounding atheistic gobbledygook.

 

I'm not a Christian anymore ... and therefore no longer impressed with or intimidated by high sounding Jesusy/biblical gobbledygook.

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Reject atheist gobbledygook, buy my religious gobbledygook about loved ones visiting from the great beyond as extraterrestrials.  As if this person can even pretend to care about logic and evidence.

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On 5/8/2018 at 8:16 PM, Thumbelina said:

Look, I am not a scientist but I'm not impressed with or intimidated by high sounding atheistic gobbledygook. 

 

You sound like Mrs. MOHO.

No one is trying to impress or intimidate - just educate and/or provide an explanation of why we disbelieve. Your's and Mrs. MOHO's responses are akin to ad hominem  attacks.

 

I know you do this out of fear. 

I know that I was afraid once. Now I just feel free of the mind control that is the main reason for the existence of religion. 

 

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On 5/10/2018 at 12:47 PM, midniterider said:

 

If one follows Christian thinking to its logical conclusion one will obsess about an imaginary being all day long.

 

... atheists think & therefore talk about God a LOT 😉.

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On 5/10/2018 at 1:13 PM, TrueScotsman said:

Reject atheist gobbledygook, buy my religious gobbledygook about loved ones visiting from the great beyond as extraterrestrials.  As if this person can even pretend to care about logic and evidence.

 

If supposed loved ones are visiting then those are demons & not loved ones. The bible says the dead know not anything. Check it for YOURSELF. Learn to cross reference too.

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5 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

... atheists think & therefore talk about God a LOT 😉.

 

 

We wouldn't if it were not for Christians trying to force Christianity on everyone else.  When Christians are not active there is no reason for atheists to think about God.  Instead we think about more important things.

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7 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

... atheists think & therefore talk about God a LOT 😉.

 

The ones at ex-c do, at least. Though, lately, politics and other topics  seem to be getting more time on this site. 

 

Outside of this site though, an atheist relative of mine doesnt even bring up religion. My parents who were atheists/agnostics rarely said anything about god or religion and dad had been a churchgoing Christian as a kid.

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21 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

The ones at ex-c do, at least. Though, lately, politics and other topics  seem to be getting more time on this site. 

 

Outside of this site though, an atheist relative of mine doesnt even bring up religion. My parents who were atheists/agnostics rarely said anything about god or religion and dad had been a churchgoing Christian as a kid.

As an atheist, I think very little about god these days.  Did a lot more after initially disconcerting, but after reeducating myself on everything we know from science and philosophy, I pretty much departed this subject for more worldly topics.  Such as politics.  :)

 

 

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1 hour ago, mymistake said:

 

 

We wouldn't if it were not for Christians trying to force Christianity on everyone else.  When Christians are not active there is no reason for atheists to think about God.  Instead we think about more important things.

Yup, that's the only reason I see the topic as still quite important.

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8 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

If supposed loved ones are visiting then those are demons & not loved ones. The bible says the dead know not anything. Check it for YOURSELF. Learn to cross reference too.

 

Another fine Christian obsession ... Satan paranoia. People in the church I attended suffered from that.

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32 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Another fine Christian obsession ... Satan paranoia. People in the church I attended suffered from that.

Mine too. The further I get from it all the crazier it appears. 

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14 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

The ones at ex-c do, at least. Though, lately, politics and other topics  seem to be getting more time on this site. 

 

Outside of this site though, an atheist relative of mine doesnt even bring up religion. My parents who were atheists/agnostics rarely said anything about god or religion and dad had been a churchgoing Christian as a kid.

 

 

Bible prophecy says that SADLY, politics & religion would become enmeshed in these last days so I guess soon they'll be back to talking religion 😃.

 

Your parents are atheistic, then how did you end up a Christian? Hope you don't mind me asking?

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25 minutes ago, Thumbelina said:

 

 

Bible prophecy says that SADLY, politics & religion would become enmeshed in these last days so I guess soon they'll be back to talking religion 😃.

 

Your parents are atheistic, then how did you end up a Christian? Hope you don't mind me asking?

Simply, people like you should be fucking dead! In the grave dead.

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