Is hell good or bad?

[Guest end3]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 12:49 PM, florduh said:

Trust comes in differing forms. It is reasonable to "trust" that your car will start today since it has started every day for the past couple of years. It is reasonable to "trust" the pilot of your plane will be able to get you to the next airport safely; he or she has training, certification and experience before you get on the aircraft. It is NOT reasonable to trust the guy selling magic beans because there is no evidence other than his word that magic exists, those beans really do work, and they are worth the price. You may choose to trust him anyway if you like, but it's a dumb thing to do.

As I said, many here have supplanted trust with regard to a moral mechanism for trust in science/logic.  The former has no value? Is dumb?

 

If it had no value, there wouldn't be a need for Ex-C....ya recon.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 hours ago, end3 said:

When was sin a threat?  You said A & E were ignorant.  And now because temptation was allowed, God is evil?  Can we be subjected to temptation without us subscribing to evil?  Can God, even though he is the author?

 

 

 

We've done this before, End3; but for the sake of lurkers and newcomers alike, let's do it again.

 

What motivated Eve to eat the fruit?  Wasn't it the thought that she could be like god?  Wasn't that thought spawned in pride?  Isn't pride a sin?

 

How could Eve have been motivated by sin, unless sin was already a part of her nature?  And how could sin already be a part of her nature, unless it was also already a part of god's nature, in whose image she was created?

 

The wages of sin is death.  god created Adam and Eve with sin already in their nature, as it was already in his nature.  god then blamed Adam and Eve, and all the rest of us, for sin and death.

 

You're right.  Sin isn't the threat.  god is.

[Guest end3]

24 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

We've done this before, End3; but for the sake of lurkers and newcomers alike, let's do it again.

 

What motivated Eve to eat the fruit?  Wasn't it the thought that she could be like god?  Wasn't that thought spawned in pride?  Isn't pride a sin?

 

How could Eve have been motivated by sin, unless sin was already a part of her nature?  And how could sin already be a part of her nature, unless it was also already a part of god's nature, in whose image she was created?

 

The wages of sin is death.  god created Adam and Eve with sin already in their nature, as it was already in his nature.  god then blamed Adam and Eve, and all the rest of us, for sin and death.

 

You're right.  Sin isn't the threat.  god is.

You didn't answer the pertinent question.....is it possible for us to be subjected to evil without choosing evil.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

40 minutes ago, end3 said:

You didn't answer the pertinent question.....is it possible for us to be subjected to evil without choosing evil.

Actually, I did answer that question, albeit in a round-about way.  god created Adam and Eve with sin already inherent in their nature.  That is obvious from the story.  What you are not wanting to see is that, as a result, we were subjected to evil whether we chose it or not.  

[Guest end3]

You still didn't answer.  It's a yes or no.  Let me refresh... Can we be subjected to evil without chosing evil.

[quinntar]

5 minutes ago, end3 said:

You still didn't answer.  It's a yes or no.  Let me refresh... Can we be subjected to evil without chosing evil.

Evil is purely a human concept for actions a person(s) take that are perceived as negative. Good actions a person(s) take are perceived as positives. Basically we create morals and laws by what we think is positive or negative about each other's actions.

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

40 minutes ago, end3 said:

You still didn't answer.  It's a yes or no.  Let me refresh... Can we be subjected to evil without chosing evil.

Yes.  We did not chose evil.  Even if I allow that Adam and Eve did, I didn't.  You didn't.  Yet god subjected us to it anyway.  Because god is evil.

[disillusioned]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

You still didn't answer.  It's a yes or no.  Let me refresh... Can we be subjected to evil without chosing evil.

 

The answer to this question is obviously "yes". It isn't really even a question.

 

Come on End. You're better than this.

[midniterider]

Theists argue their point.

Ex-c-ists argue their point.

God is silent as always. Why is that?

[quinntar]

31 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Theists argue their point.

Ex-c-ists argue their point.

God is silent as always. Why is that?

That's right, why does Bible God need end3 or ironhorse or anyone to explain to us why he's real.

 

Doesn't this God draw all men to him, doesn't he open our spiritual eyes? But he's said nothing to you, or me or anyone I would say, sounds like he's just not that real enough.

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Yes.  We did not chose evil.  Even if I allow that Adam and Eve did, I didn't.  You didn't.  Yet god subjected us to it anyway.  Because god is evil.

Well I expect I am happy with the answer at this point.  You think God is evil because he subjected humanity to evil.  I think it was more a necessity.  Thanks for the visit.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

Well I expect I am happy with the answer at this point.  You think God is evil because he subjected humanity to evil.  I think it was more a necessity.  Thanks for the visit.

I have come to the conclusion that god is evil as a result of three "facts", as it were:

 

1.  god's own confession that he created evil  (Isaiah 45:7)

2.  god's lie that Adam would die the day he ate the fruit (Genesis 5:5)

3.  Eve's ability to experience pride prior to eating the fruit, which demonstrates that she already had "sin" in her nature, which was created in the image of god (Genesis 3:5&6)

 

These three "facts" prove god to be evil; and each is supported by the very word of god himself, the bible.  So to be clear: god is not evil because he subjected humanity to evil; rather god subjected humanity to evil because god is evil.

 

You think it was more of a necessity for god to subject humanity to evil.  Can you demonstrate that with scripture?  I'll wait...

[mymistake]

7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

3.  Eve's ability to experience pride prior to eating the fruit, which demonstrates that she already had "sin" in her nature, which was created in the image of god (Genesis 3:5&6)

 

 

Brilliant.  Absolutely brilliant.

[Guest end3]

I don't know what you think is so evil or novel about learning to overcome our nature.  Actually, I think it's a far BETTER thing to do and gives us our true nature.   

[mymistake]

32 minutes ago, end3 said:

I don't know what you think is so evil or novel about learning to overcome our nature.  Actually, I think it's a far BETTER thing to do and gives us our true nature.   

 

 

You never overcome your nature.  That is a Christian lie.  Christians lie about how they cannot be good without the help of God.  But our ancestors learned how to work together for the common good millions of years ago back when they were just animals.  Your God wasn't invented until a few thousand years ago.

 

 

One dog risks his own life to save another dog.  No Jesus required.

 

 

 

 

You don't need any god in order to work with other people for the common good.  Just do the right thing.  You don't need a religious text.  Use the empathy that is part of your nature.  Think.  Use your brain.  Ask yourself how you think others would feel based on your actions.  You have a nature that allows you to be very good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, end3 said:

I don't know what you think is so evil or novel about learning to overcome our nature.  Actually, I think it's a far BETTER thing to do and gives us our true nature.   

I don't need god for that.

 

You need to address my point.

[Robbie67]

Behave yourself, trust God and his anointed preachers and you will be rewarded with blessings and heaven. Fail to uphold the high standards, lose trust in the great God and you will be condemned to hell. It's all a bit manipulative for a supposedly loving and forgiving deity if you as me. 

[quinntar]

9 hours ago, end3 said:

I don't know what you think is so evil or novel about learning to overcome our nature.  Actually, I think it's a far BETTER thing to do and gives us our true nature.   

You don't lose the ability to overcome your faulty nature when you leave the bible God end3, is that what you think? That you can't be a better person due to a moral law giver.

[Guest end3]

23 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I don't need god for that.

 

You need to address my point.

First, there are several scriptures regarding testing to "refine" our nature.  This is what I meant when I was mentioning a necessity.

Second, if evil is a function of a created entity, then why is it you think God is evil.  I, the created, could choose evil, or another created entity could employ evil, but I question your "fact" that this makes God evil....unless you are taking all creation as God in some sense. 

 

Ask S, he's the lawyer....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 hours ago, end3 said:

First, there are several scriptures regarding testing to "refine" our nature.  This is what I meant when I was mentioning a necessity.

Second, if evil is a function of a created entity, then why is it you think God is evil.  I, the created, could choose evil, or another created entity could employ evil, but I question your "fact" that this makes God evil....unless you are taking all creation as God in some sense. 

 

Ask S, he's the lawyer....

Why would it have been necessary for Adam and Eve to be subjected to evil in order to "refine" their nature, if they were created in the image of god?  Why would their nature have needed any "refining" unless they had been created with flaws already built in, such as the ability to experience pride, for example?

 

Second, who said anything about evil being a function of a created entity?  god created evil; therefore god is evil.

 

Lastly, please demonstrate, using scripture, why it was necessary for god to subject us to evil.

[Guest end3]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Why would it have been necessary for Adam and Eve to be subjected to evil in order to "refine" their nature, if they were created in the image of god?  Why would their nature have needed any "refining" unless they had been created with flaws already built in, such as the ability to experience pride, for example?

 

Second, who said anything about evil being a function of a created entity?  god created evil; therefore god is evil.

 

Lastly, please demonstrate, using scripture, why it was necessary for god to subject us to evil.

No, dude, you're missing the point.  It's not your creation.  We don't know why God would create humanity with a dichotomous nature/free will.  You can not equated God being evil with his creating evil.  Giving someone the ability to choose does not equate to the giver being evil.  It certainly might be in his wheelhouse, but again, doesn't equate to him using it.  And proof was Jesus.   

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

No, dude, you're missing the point.  It's not your creation.  We don't know why God would create humanity with a dichotomous nature/free will.  You can not equated God being evil with his creating evil.  Giving someone the ability to choose does not equate to the giver being evil.  It certainly might be in his wheelhouse, but again, doesn't equate to him using it.  And proof was Jesus.   

I'll concede that point, for now.

 

But I would like you to address the other points in my post.  Why would it have been necessary to subject Adam and Eve to evil in order to "refine" their nature, if they were created in the image of god?  Why would their nature have needed any "refining" unless they had been created with flaws already built in, such as the ability to experience pride, for example?

 

And also, please demonstrate, using scripture, why it was necessary for god to subject us to evil.

[mymistake]

12 hours ago, end3 said:

No, dude, you're missing the point.  It's not your creation.  We don't know why God would create humanity with a dichotomous nature/free will.   

 

What free will?

 

12 hours ago, end3 said:

You can not equated God being evil with his creating evil. 

 

An all-good and all-knowing being could not create evil.  Christianity is wrong about the nature of God.  Also Christianity is wrong about the existence of God.  But you can't even get your story strait.

 

 

13 hours ago, end3 said:

Giving someone the ability to choose does not equate to the giver being evil.  It certainly might be in his wheelhouse, but again, doesn't equate to him using it.  And proof was Jesus.   

 

The ability to blindly choose suffering for billions of people that would last for all eternity.  It is infinite suffering so God is infinitely evil.  Again a good being wouldn't do something like that.

 

Also, what Jesus?  You can't say something if proof if you can't show it even exists.

 

[mwc]

13 hours ago, end3 said:

No, dude, you're missing the point.  It's not your creation.  We don't know why God would create humanity with a dichotomous nature/free will.  You can not equated God being evil with his creating evil.  Giving someone the ability to choose does not equate to the giver being evil.  It certainly might be in his wheelhouse, but again, doesn't equate to him using it.  And proof was Jesus.   

     As has been pointed out by @mymistake this can't be correct.

 

     We're not talking about an unintended consequence.  Like god was an Albert Einstein who created a theory which could be used for good things but then bad things, like nuclear bombs, as well.  But he was short sighted and never saw that coming or was fallible and dismissed it for those "greater good" things or simply his own pride.

 

     We're talking about a god that knew the end game before the the field was even created.  So if god created evil that god knew was evil was and what evil would do before this god even started.  This god would know its own moral objections to evil as well.  That it was a polar opposite to a thing it was creating.  How this is even possible I don't even know.  How an all-good god could create something not even contained within its own character, being or "essence" is beyond me?  How it could even imagine it is beyond me.  To do so would mean it must be a part of itself on some level.

 

     Whether or not god defines itself but this "evil" is really beside the point.  That it knew what it would do to the creation is really more to the point.  It wreaked havoc.  In these religions we literally talk about "sin" and "evil" and having ruined everything.  So to know this in advance and still allow it isn't a "test" at all.  It's just evil.  God unleashed evil which makes him evil.  Had he not had the ability to know and evil was simply an unintended consequence then that we could say otherwise but that isn't the case.  It would excuse failed prophecies too.  It would also mean we couldn't trust god to know the end game as to whether his goodness will triumph over evil either.  If god knows the future, absolutely so, then he is the one responsible.

 

          mwc

 

[Guest end3]

3 hours ago, mwc said:

     As has been pointed out by @mymistake this can't be correct.

 

     We're not talking about an unintended consequence.  Like god was an Albert Einstein who created a theory which could be used for good things but then bad things, like nuclear bombs, as well.  But he was short sighted and never saw that coming or was fallible and dismissed it for those "greater good" things or simply his own pride.

 

     We're talking about a god that knew the end game before the the field was even created.  So if god created evil that god knew was evil was and what evil would do before this god even started.  This god would know its own moral objections to evil as well.  That it was a polar opposite to a thing it was creating.  How this is even possible I don't even know.  How an all-good god could create something not even contained within its own character, being or "essence" is beyond me?  How it could even imagine it is beyond me.  To do so would mean it must be a part of itself on some level.

 

     Whether or not god defines itself but this "evil" is really beside the point.  That it knew what it would do to the creation is really more to the point.  It wreaked havoc.  In these religions we literally talk about "sin" and "evil" and having ruined everything.  So to know this in advance and still allow it isn't a "test" at all.  It's just evil.  God unleashed evil which makes him evil.  Had he not had the ability to know and evil was simply an unintended consequence then that we could say otherwise but that isn't the case.  It would excuse failed prophecies too.  It would also mean we couldn't trust god to know the end game as to whether his goodness will triumph over evil either.  If god knows the future, absolutely so, then he is the one responsible.

 

          mwc

 

I've already said it was a necessity, imo, that God allow evil for a purpose.  I guess the question is do we have free will or not.  If I am predestined, then I don't know it. You?