Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Making a solid argument


Nani

Recommended Posts

Okay...so I think I’m going to do it soon. How do I make a solid argument? I’m going to talk to my parents about some troubling passages in the Bible. How do I even tell them that they make me uncomfortable? I’m going to try to mention a few verses that make me uncomfortable and they’re from the Old Testament. I know they’ll say “we’re not under law” so how do I still make my case for this? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you think they will agree with your perspective? Are they hardcore fundies? Or somewhat liberal?

 

Christians seem to think a guy bleeding on the cross is a story suitable for children soooo, umm...not sure what to tell ya. Logic is not a big factor with regard to comfortable or uncomfortable religious teaching. Jesus could eat a small child and Christians would put a positive spin on it.

 

You could whip out Mt 5:18 on em regarding ignoring the OT law, but then they might hit you with the all encompassing "You took that out of context!" blather.

 

Are you of legal age and able to move out? If not, might have to deal with some religion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Nani said:

Okay...so I think I’m going to do it soon. How do I make a solid argument? I’m going to talk to my parents about some troubling passages in the Bible. How do I even tell them that they make me uncomfortable? I’m going to try to mention a few verses that make me uncomfortable and they’re from the Old Testament. I know they’ll say “we’re not under law” so how do I still make my case for this? 

 

You don't necessarily need to make a case to others, including your parents.  Perhaps a more accurate conversation could be started with, "I am having trouble reconciling aspects of the religion I have been taught with aspects of reality.  I am going to spend a few years studying this, and similar topics, in more detail.  I am going to start with learning how to think rationally with intellectual honesty."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do you plan to accomplish from these talks?  I avoid most discussions with my religious family but I would make an exception if I felt they were ganging up on one of my relatives for "not being Christian".

 

If you are really insisting on trying to change your relative's minds the only way I know that works is called Street Epistemology.  I find it a very difficult skill to master but there are plenty of online resources to learn from.  You can google youtube for "street epistemology" if you want to learn.  It boils down to asking the right questions in order to make the believer think about why they believe.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seconding MM's sentiment. Be sure that you identify your goals clearly before you have the talk.

 

For myself, I realized that my family was very likely to not ever agree with me. The goal, for me, was never to convince them that I was right. It was just to explain that I wasn't a Christian anymore. I was honest with them. I explained clearly that I was no longer a Christian, that I wasn't trying to convince them of anything, and briefly explained how I had come to lose my faith. Then I left it in their court by telling them that I'd be open to any questions they might have. They had a few initially, and have had a number more since, and I always make a point of responding to their questions sincerely, rigorously, and, to the best of my ability, compassionately. This has allowed us to maintain a functional, if, at times, strained relationship.

 

I cannot do enough to underscore how happy I am that I waited as long as I did to have this conversation. I was completely independent from my parents, but I still wanted to make sure that I didn't destroy our relationship. Even though I was independent, it wasn't easy to wait, but it was a very good choice. Think it through. Think everything through, then think it through some more.

 

As for your specific question about "not being under law", Matthew 5:17-48 should be helpful. You can even take the whole chapter if taking things out of context is a concern. I can discuss how I, personally, deal with this objection in much more detail if you would like. Just let me know.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, midniterider said:

Do you think they will agree with your perspective? Are they hardcore fundies? Or somewhat liberal?

 

Christians seem to think a guy bleeding on the cross is a story suitable for children soooo, umm...not sure what to tell ya. Logic is not a big factor with regard to comfortable or uncomfortable religious teaching. Jesus could eat a small child and Christians would put a positive spin on it.

 

You could whip out Mt 5:18 on em regarding ignoring the OT law, but then they might hit you with the all encompassing "You took that out of context!" blather.

 

Are you of legal age and able to move out? If not, might have to deal with some religion.

My parents have mixed beliefs. For instance they want me to get an education and work outside of the home yet still think I should submit to my husband once I get married. They still love my brother even though he’s gay. My brother still identifies as a Christian and he said he’s praying to not be gay anymore. I’m just getting sick of hiding my feelings. They’re the type to always mention Jesus when something happens. I try to talk to them about things that I go through and they just say pray. They said it’s okay because we live in an imperfect world because of the fall and I need to learn to accept that. It gets annoying. I’m of legal age and I’m currently saving up to move out. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mymistake said:

What do you plan to accomplish from these talks?  I avoid most discussions with my religious family but I would make an exception if I felt they were ganging up on one of my relatives for "not being Christian".

 

If you are really insisting on trying to change your relative's minds the only way I know that works is called Street Epistemology.  I find it a very difficult skill to master but there are plenty of online resources to learn from.  You can google youtube for "street epistemology" if you want to learn.  It boils down to asking the right questions in order to make the believer think about why they believe.

I just want to be free of religion. Everything is about Jesus around my house. My main focus is just to point out why I don’t believe. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of good advice given by the posters above. I would try to identify what your goal is in talking to them. My goal was never to convince my family that my views were somehow more correct than theirs. My goal was to say enough about my non belief that they would understand that bringing up the topic or trying to change my mind would be useless. In other words, to gain some peace and space for myself apart from their beliefs, and hopefully the chance to still have a relationship with them that isn't incredibly strained.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Nani said:

I just want to be free of religion. Everything is about Jesus around my house. My main focus is just to point out why I don’t believe. 

You don't need to justify to them why you don't believe. It could be that bringing up points about the bible etc will only invite more discussion on their part, and if that isn't what you want, I would avoid that. It's enough to simply say "I am in the process of re-examining my beliefs" or "I no longer hold the same beliefs and would appreciate it if I could be given some space and respect for my own beliefs."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

If you do want to go into the why you no longer believe you might this letter by @Citsongato be of help

 

 

Thank you! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nani said:

I just want to be free of religion. Everything is about Jesus around my house. My main focus is just to point out why I don’t believe. 

 

 

I wouldn't bother explaining why because I don't think they will understand.  If you dive into why that might invite them to bring out the apologetics to try to change your mind.  After all, they don't want you to burn in hell forever.

 

Maybe instead focus on what has happened or what won't happen - that you are not going to go back and all this religious talk isn't helping.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Nani said:

Okay...so I think I’m going to do it soon. How do I make a solid argument? I’m going to talk to my parents about some troubling passages in the Bible. How do I even tell them that they make me uncomfortable? I’m going to try to mention a few verses that make me uncomfortable and they’re from the Old Testament. I know they’ll say “we’re not under law” so how do I still make my case for this? 

 

Make sure you're certain that confronting your parents is the best route for you. I did write the lengthy letter that @TruthSeeker0 graciously recommended, and I hope you find it helpful, but I would point out that I no longer lived with my parents at the time and I wrote it in response to them confronting me. I was not initiating a confrontation myself. You will need to evaluate what the best approach is for your situation.

 

As far as the passages that you alluded to, the standard Christian practice of writing off the bulk of the Bible as "just the Old Testament" is nonsensical. They claim that the OT is part of God's Word when it's convenient but then write it off as outdated when what it says is inconvenient. These same Christians usually claim that God and morality are absolutes, so there's no valid way for them to defend changes in moral expectations. There are serious holes in all of their attempts to get around the problems with the Law allegedly dictated by God Himself in the OT.

 

Whatever you do, I wish you the best. If you do choose to confront your parents and they bring up stuff you aren't prepared to respond to, feel free to ask for advice here and some of us will probably be able to help. Good luck!

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 08/04/2018 at 2:55 AM, Nani said:

Okay...so I think I’m going to do it soon. How do I make a solid argument? I’m going to talk to my parents about some troubling passages in the Bible. How do I even tell them that they make me uncomfortable? I’m going to try to mention a few verses that make me uncomfortable and they’re from the Old Testament. I know they’ll say “we’re not under law” so how do I still make my case for this? 

Remember now that they know the truth, and you'll be practically flogging a dead horse. Forget about their small minded belief's and go and live your life your way.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I'm not going to church any more because I'm an atheist!"

"How do you like me now, bitches?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, MOHO said:

"I'm not going to church any more because I'm an atheist!"

"How do you like me now, bitches?"

 

Spew some barf and spin your head around also.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you to everyone here for all of the help and the encouragement. I will be moving out soon and I may never return to this site again. Too much has happened and things have changed in such a short time. I am appreciative of all your help. Goodbye. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

Uhhh, okay...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Nani said:

Thank you to everyone here for all of the help and the encouragement. I will be moving out soon and I may never return to this site again. Too much has happened and things have changed in such a short time. I am appreciative of all your help. Goodbye. 

 

Was is something we said?

 

I took a shower this morning.

Wait.....yup...took shower.    ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

I feel so used. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Nani said:

Thank you to everyone here for all of the help and the encouragement. I will be moving out soon and I may never return to this site again. Too much has happened and things have changed in such a short time. I am appreciative of all your help. Goodbye. 

 

 

Yeah, that is why I try to discourage people from having these talks with their folks.  Sometimes it works out but Christianity is a system and the system has been keeping families divided for centuries.  I wish you the best of luck in whatever happens.  Hopefully you can give us an update whenever you get the chance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.