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SerenelyBlue

How can I answer this Christian?

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On 11/04/2018 at 3:22 AM, SerenelyBlue said:

Josephus, the Jewish historian, records that Christ was crucified. We have the attestations of the Apostles that he was resurrected from the dead. If it was all a made-up story, you wouldn't have had a woman being the first one to report seeing the risen Lord. Nor would you have had the Apostles going to their tortuous deaths to spread a lie, or the chief persecutor of the Christians being converted on the road to Damascus. Immediately following the Crucifixion, the Apostles were in total disarray, demoralized and scared. Something would have had to happen to give them the faith and fortitude to carry on. The world was changed by the Resurrection of Christ. The world would be changed further if more people believed and took to heart the teachings of Christ.

 

The above is a post on a help website.  How would you suggest I counter this?

But yet we are supposed to believe that anyone actually died for Jesus, by the accounts of the Christian forefathers the apostle's all died for the truth. However has the secular world kept a record of the martyrs of this faith.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

But you would never know that when you listen to a lot of Christian pastors. They talk as if the Gospels and all these miracles were written by eyewitnesses to the events, which is far from the truth. 

 

Pastors make stuff up any time they need it.  They take some old Bible story, embellish it, twist it around and turn it into anything they want.  History and facts can get the same treatment.

 

 

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On 4/12/2018 at 1:25 PM, SerenelyBlue said:

You are wrong about Josephus' writings. He wrote "The Jewish War" in 75 A.D. As a historian, he was familiar with events just before his lifetime. He mentions both Jesus and John the Baptist. We also know that Pontius Pilate was a real person--a tablet bearing his name, and dated to the time period of Jesus, was found in Israel. Josephus also mentions Pilate, who is also mentioned by Tacitus and Philo of Alexandria.

 

Finally, the Apostles were NOT fanatics. They were scared s***ss after the Crucifixion. There is quite a difference between people like that and fanatics. Fanatics have limited capacity for reason. The Apostles preached with both reason and the words of Jesus on their side.

Christianity is not a myth. It is real. And the truth is there for those who will but seek it.

That Jesus, John the Baptist "were real people", doesn't make Jesus a supernatural entity.

 

As to the apostles being scared.........of what exactly, they were supposed to be the hand picked best buddies of the king of the Universe. Why would you be scared if God was your best friend.

 

Christianity makes claims that fail over and over and over again in the real world. Show me a minister that can move a mountain with his magic thoughts and I will reconsider my position.

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On 4/10/2018 at 6:27 PM, mymistake said:

 

 

Oh I've heard the same thing a hundred times.  The Jewish culture hated women, or so the story goes.  But today I realize the New Testament was written by Greeks and Romans.  The Greeks and Romans had plenty of goddesses and maidens in their old stories.  So the objection is making several assumptions that might be false.  It's not a solid way to prove your religion is true.

Add to that the whole idea god would only be able to love us after he killed his innocent son in our place is a most odious and ridiculous doctrine. The notion of living sacrifices pleasing an angry God is a pathetic, ancient picture of fearful humanity lost in a fog of ignorance and superstition. See photo below and God saying : " She may be  beautiful and sweet, but I have to kill and torment my son before I can love her". And I used to believe that rot...smh

20170527_0853212028503263.jpg

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On 4/10/2018 at 1:22 PM, SerenelyBlue said:

Josephus, the Jewish historian, records that Christ was crucified. We have the attestations of the Apostles that he was resurrected from the dead. If it was all a made-up story, you wouldn't have had a woman being the first one to report seeing the risen Lord. Nor would you have had the Apostles going to their tortuous deaths to spread a lie, or the chief persecutor of the Christians being converted on the road to Damascus. Immediately following the Crucifixion, the Apostles were in total disarray, demoralized and scared. Something would have had to happen to give them the faith and fortitude to carry on. The world was changed by the Resurrection of Christ. The world would be changed further if more people believed and took to heart the teachings of Christ.

 

The above is a post on a help website.  How would you suggest I counter this?

 

As others have mentioned, this is a hop, skip and jump though a series of diverse logic leaping. 

 

See, "ta da," proof that Jesus existed, had these disciples as mentioned, was crucified, died and resurrected and ascended unto heaven. 

 

The only problem is that Josephus wrote in the late 1st century, wasn't a contemporary of Jesus, and wrote about some 20 Jesus's, some of which contain fragments of the Jesus of Nazareth myth among them. It has been alleged that the Jesus of Nazareth myth is nothing more than taking many different aspects of each of these other Jesus's stories and rolling them into one, Jesus of Nazareth myth, as a template for an historical sounding tale.

 

As to the rest of Josephus, some scribe apparently decided to insert Jesus the Christ, via interpolation, among these some odd 20 other mundane Jesus's which were mentioned in his writings. And possibly another reference to "James the brother of the Lord." Both have been suspect for years. Both, even if original in part, only suggest that by the late 1st century the Jesus myth existed and may have been noted by Josephus in passing. He didn't believe in Jesus as a follower, so the whole Christ thing is very suspect. 

 

Attestations of the Apostles are completely throw away, just like that. We have no original gospels written by the apostles in question. We have only 2nd century and later fragments of gospels written anonymously, by writers who have been shown not to have been contemporaries of the time and place in question, much like Josephus. There's nothing in the historical record of either Jesus's "cruci-fiction," nor of any of the so called disciples demises either. That would be major headline news if such evidence were to be found. None of any of these alleged executions were recorded and preserved. Challenge him to provide the hard evidence. 

 

Paul being converted on the road to "Dumb-ass-cuss," is just that, a dumb ass assertion based on taking Luke - Acts at face value when you actually can't. We can't say anything about the state of the disciples after the "cruci-fiction," because, again, there's no evidence for either the "cruci-fiction," the disciples, nor anything other than references to someone we can confirm, Pontius Pilate. But there's no record either from the Jews nor Roman's of Jesus' "cruci-fiction" during the reign of Pontius Pilate. Nor of these disciples either. Challenge him to provide the contemporary court records which YHWH made sure were preserved so future generations, like us, would have concrete proof of all of this. 

 

We're into some King Arthur shit, pulling the sword from the stone with the Christ myth. Quasi-Historical referencing in the context of a blatant myth. 

 

And worse yet, the world was not changed by the "res-erection" of Christ because there's no freaking evidence that even proves that Jesus was an historical person living during the time of Pontius Pilate, having these alleged disciples, dying or "res-erecting," certainly not ascending to heaven, and not even appearing to a Saul / Paul on the road to "Dumb-ass-cuss." 

 

The world received yet another myth, based upon previous and contemporary myths of the time and place, which, fell on flaccid results until several hundred years later when it so happened to cross paths with Augustine and then passed down from there. We wouldn't be talking about it now if it weren't for a few chance events that if simply went in a different direction, we all may be debating Mithraic priests, apologist's and blind believers right now instead of christian. But this is how the cards fell and this what we got. And as any number of other ways myths could have gotten this far, they all have in common the fact that we'd be here now negating them thoroughly based on the fact what we're an advancing society, in a technological age, who are letting go of, even if slowly, our SUPERSTITIONS. 

 

And that's my Friday after work analysis....

 

(citations can be added to all of the above) 

 

 

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On 4/12/2018 at 5:25 AM, SerenelyBlue said:

You are wrong about Josephus' writings. He wrote "The Jewish War" in 75 A.D. As a historian, he was familiar with events just before his lifetime. He mentions both Jesus and John the Baptist. We also know that Pontius Pilate was a real person--a tablet bearing his name, and dated to the time period of Jesus, was found in Israel. Josephus also mentions Pilate, who is also mentioned by Tacitus and Philo of Alexandria.

    Yep, Josephus likely wrote Wars round about 75 CE.  Of course the passage in question isn't in Wars but Antiquities which was written about 20 years later.  Josephus does differ from the gospels about John the Baptist.  It also seems strange that he would write what he does about jesus when he derides all messianic figures except Vespasian.

 

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After the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ, strange things happened in the temple. When the lots for the goats were chosen by the high priest on the Day of Atonement, the priest always picked the black lot first--considered a bad omen. Black lots were picked from the Crucifixion until the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. The odds of that happening year after year from 33 A.D. to 70 A.D. are about one in 5 billion. Also, when the red sash was cut in two and one part retained by the high priest, and the other part placed on the scapegoat, the red cloth NEVER turned white as it did in years past. The heavy bronze doors to the temple would also open by themselves every night--it took 20 men to move them, but they opened by themselves. The light on the menorah closest to the Holiest of Holies would always go out--it would not stay lit. Finally, just before the temple's destruction, Josephus records that a strange white light permeated the entire temple at night for a few hours, and then went out. This was perceived as the spirit of God leaving the temple. Now--these facts are recorded in the Jerusalem Talmud, which, Serenity, is a JEWISH source. The Sanhedrin blamed all of these happenings on Jesus. What is NOT in dispute is that they HAPPENED.

     These things would likely be in dispute since there's no evidence for any of them.  The Talmud is full of unreliable stories.  And he leaves out where Josephus mentions the sacrificial heifer giving birth to a lamb.  That certainly must have happened too, right?  So lots of signs and portents.  And the shaking of the ground and the voices (a multitude) that say "let us remove hence."  And that's how god left the building at Pentecost.

 

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Some of Paul's letters are dated from around 55 - 60 A.D. The Gospels themselves were written from around 60 - 70 A.D. The synoptic Gospels were written by people who KNEW the original Apostles; the Gospel of John was supposedly written by the Apostle John himself--John the son of Zebedee.

     Sure.  I mean we can say they weren't but this is all game of "he said, she said."  I can say the synoptics were written by people that knew the original alien overlord Xenu's buddy Tim but only believers will accept that answer.  Assertions don't mean much.

 

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Islam, if you recall, was spread by the armies of Islam after the death of Muhammad. Christians and Jews living in conquered lands were required to pay a heavy tax, the jizyah, to their new overlords or face execution. The Muslim Crusades predate the Christian Crusades by centuries. Both were bloody affairs. Right after the death of Muhammad, his son-in-law and cousin, Ali, was killed in internecine warfare.

     And?

 

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Finally, the Apostles were NOT fanatics. They were scared s***ss after the Crucifixion. There is quite a difference between people like that and fanatics. Fanatics have limited capacity for reason. The Apostles preached with both reason and the words of Jesus on their side.

Christianity is not a myth. It is real. And the truth is there for those who will but seek it.

     The apostles were so scared so shitless they just sort of hung around Jerusalem and spoke in tongues (according to the Acts)?  The stories have jesus magically appearing to them hanging around.  The only time they're sequestered is kind of the day or two after the crucifixion happened (I'll go maybe a week or two tops) but they then sort of went about their business fishing and shit depending on the source.  After that we're told they wandered around preaching.  The whole world just stopped looking for them, probably because they could just see them standing around, and they got over their fear pretty quickly.

 

     Oh, wait, I see.  Islamists were fanatics and unreasable.  Xians were scared shitless and very reasonable as people in that state usually are.  Makes sense.

 

          mwc

 

 

 

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