LogicalFallacy

Evil and Original Sin

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Many here will be familiar with the Christian apologetic that evil was only brought into the world by the sin of Adam and Eve and this of course was passed on to us.

 

These people obviously didn't bother reading Genesis chapter 3, and I quote:

 

Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

Gen. 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

 

This is clearly stating that good and evil already existed prior to the 'fall'. The 'sin' merely resulted in Adam and Eve becoming aware of what existed prior.

 

So I think the answer to "There is evil because Adam and Eve brought it into the world" is Genesis 3:22. They became as gods knowing good and evil.

 

This rebuttal of evil existing prior is backed up by other bible verses:

 

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

 

Conclusion: Humans did not bring evil into the world. It was a pre-existing condition created by the one who created everything if you want to argue the Christian theology.

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27 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Many here will be familiar with the Christian apologetic that evil was only brought into the world by the sin of Adam and Eve and this of course was passed on to us.

 

These people obviously didn't bother reading Genesis chapter 3, and I quote:

 

Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

Gen. 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

 

This is clearly stating that good and evil already existed prior to the 'fall'. The 'sin' merely resulted in Adam and Eve becoming aware of what existed prior.

 

So I think the answer to "There is evil because Adam and Eve brought it into the world" is Genesis 3:22. They became as gods knowing good and evil.

 

This rebuttal of evil existing prior is backed up by other bible verses:

 

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

 

Conclusion: Humans did not bring evil into the world. It was a pre-existing condition created by the one who created everything if you want to argue the Christian theology.

Checkmate Christian's.

 

Then again a Christian could always say that God knows what good & evil is, not that he acts in any good or evil way.

 

Then again the Christian believes that God is good and can only do good, so

 

Checkmate Christian's

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On Earth, it was humans (or earlier sentient moral agents, now extinct), who were first capable of moral and immoral behavior, were the first to construct the concepts of good and evil and were the first to perform good and evil actions.  But that's actual history.  The Genesis story is fiction.

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12 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

On Earth, it was humans (or earlier sentient moral agents, now extinct), who were first capable of moral and immoral behavior, were the first to construct the concepts of good and evil and were the first to perform good and evil actions.  But that's actual history.  The Genesis story is fiction.

The question for me is then, how do we ultimately deconstruct this construct.  Science gives us answers, but what science gives us an explanation for the decisions we make.

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4 hours ago, end3 said:

Science gives us answers, but what science gives us an explanation for the decisions we make.

Psychology and neuroscience.

 

We make decisions not on some concrete external model of good/evil but rather on our personality, upbringing, personal circumstances and experiences. Decisions can come from selfishness, empathy, altruism or pragmatism. I don't think it's such a mystery, really.

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17 minutes ago, florduh said:

Psychology and neuroscience.

 

We make decisions not on some concrete external model of good/evil but rather on our personality, upbringing, personal circumstances and experiences. Decisions can come from selfishness, empathy, altruism or pragmatism. I don't think it's such a mystery, really.

Right, of course we do.  Again, why do we intentionally keep wanting to educate ourselves and practice things that promote life.  I'm not understanding explanation and prediction of behavior agree when it comes to humanity.  This makes sense in that science should at some point be able to explain and therefore predict. 

 

Edit:  The point being, you are describing "being blown back and forth".  This implies that there is a standard that is optimal. 

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3 minutes ago, end3 said:

Right, of course we do.  Again, why do we intentionally keep wanting to educate ourselves and practice things that promote life.  I'm not understanding explanation and prediction of behavior agree when it comes to humanity.  This makes sense in that science should at some point be able to explain and therefore predict. 

 

Again science does explain this. I would have thought the answer to why we want to keep educating and practice things that promote life is self evident? We do those things because its beneficial to us individually, and to the species.

 

We of all species have developed the ability to think of how our actions affect our species as a whole and we realise that its beneficial that we act in a way that promotes life.

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6 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Again science does explain this.

No, science can't do this yet.

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23 minutes ago, end3 said:

No, science can't do this yet.

 

We are now completely off topic, but how does science not explain "wanting to educate ourselves and practice things that promote life"?

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On 4/15/2018 at 8:21 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

Many here will be familiar with the Christian apologetic that evil was only brought into the world by the sin of Adam and Eve and this of course was passed on to us.

 

These people obviously didn't bother reading Genesis chapter 3  . . . 

 

I think what you are up against is that Christians are trained to not read it right.  Back when I was a Christian I was taught to literally believe that the words "on the day you eat it you shall surly die" means:

 

"Your nature will be altered in millions upon millions of ways.  So will all the plants and animals on Earth so there will be birth defects, sickness, disease, hunger, suffering, mistakes, a food chain,     and so on and so forth."

 

I was trained to literally disregard the actually meaning of the words in the passage and instead read into it the meaning of every bad thing we have ever discovered.  I read Genesis hundreds of times as a Christian but I followed my training.

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15 hours ago, end3 said:

Right, of course we do.  Again, why do we intentionally keep wanting to educate ourselves and practice things that promote life.  I'm not understanding explanation and prediction of behavior agree when it comes to humanity.  This makes sense in that science should at some point be able to explain and therefore predict. 

 

Edit:  The point being, you are describing "being blown back and forth".  This implies that there is a standard that is optimal. 

There is a standard that is optimal from an evolutionary point of view. Optimal is whatever behaviors tend to continue the existence of the race. It's not optimal in the sense that there is some goal to be reached, it's just that traits leading to preservation are more successful than destructive traits. Those destructive traits tend to die out as helpful traits come to dominate. That's why the vast majority of humans are not inclined to murder their neighbor and steal their stuff.

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15 hours ago, end3 said:

No, science can't do this yet.

It's called super science, and it's coming to a cinema near you.

 

Wait!? That's the new marvel movie, is that out yet?

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15 hours ago, end3 said:

Right, of course we do.  Again, why do we intentionally keep wanting to educate ourselves and practice things that promote life.  I'm not understanding explanation and prediction of behavior agree when it comes to humanity.  This makes sense in that science should at some point be able to explain and therefore predict. 

 

Edit:  The point being, you are describing "being blown back and forth".  This implies that there is a standard that is optimal. 

It's not all black & white end3, there are a myriad of colours to paint your picture with.

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20 hours ago, end3 said:

The question for me is then, how do we ultimately deconstruct this construct.  Science gives us answers, but what science gives us an explanation for the decisions we make.

Can't you wait to find out at the end, or must you assume you know why your here just because a bronze age book tell's you?

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On 4/15/2018 at 8:21 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

Gen. 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

     The tree is the source of the knowledge of good and evil.  Perhaps the gods, unlike Adam and Eve, were allowed to eat from this tree and so that's how they had this knowledge?  It's easy to imagine that the god somehow imbued the tree with this magical power once it takes on the role of sole creator but if we simply go with the idea that the garden was planted by and for the god(s) for their use with the human as caretaker and one of the trees that was planted was this one as well as the other we know about which is the tree of life then it makes more sense.

 

     This then becomes more like along the lines of Greek mythology where the gods partake of special foods to give them some special ability (ie. ambrosia).  And if humans get a hold of it then they can also become like the gods but only while they also partake otherwise the effects fade.

 

     So it's not the gods that placed the powers into the trees but the trees that placed the powers into the gods (and humans).

 

          mwc

 

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