Once a sinner always a sinner

[quinntar]

"We love sin"

 

This is a religious phrase that has been used against those who are struggling to leave or left Christianity. When the Ex-Christian demonstrates their independence and freedom from the shackles of their belief system, the Christian returns fire by saying.

 

"You have turned away from God because you love sin"

 

My objective here is to begin a defence and raise awareness of this particular attack. It is a low blow in my book, and it was something that caused me to rethink my position on leaving the Christian God. It is like a dormant virus that can still take the Ex-Christian hostage at some point in their deprogramming. 

[Geezer]

Sin tends to have a fluid definition. Even within Christianity there is disagreement on what is and is not sinful. Essentially sin is breaking a church or biblical rule or command. Christianity is basically a voluntary agreement to live a self disciplined life and adhere to the laws, rules, & commands of the church & bible, even though there is often no agreement on exactly what those are. 

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, theanticrash said:

"We love sin"

 

This is a religious phrase that has been used against those who are struggling to leave or left Christianity. When the Ex-Christian demonstrates their independence and freedom from the shackles of their belief system, the Christian returns fire by saying.

 

"You have turned away from God because you love sin"

 

My objective here is to begin a defence and raise awareness of this particular attack. It is a low blow in my book, and it was something that caused me to rethink my position on leaving the Christian God. It is like a dormant virus that can still take the Ex-Christian hostage at some point in their deprogramming. 

 

One defense to this might be to say, "I am immune to your attempt at guilting me back into the mind prison of Christianity. If you enjoy being a robot for Jesus, go ahead."

[mymistake]

My favorite response is "There is no such thing as sin".

 

If that doesn't shut them up I would elaborate with:

 

Crime is real.  Crime is behavior that offend the government.  Rudeness is real.  Rudeness is behavior that offends the people around you.  Sin is behavior that offend imaginary beings.  If imaginary beings are not real then neither is sin.

 

If the Believer counters with "But my God is not imaginary because my God is real!" then I would come back with:

 

Okay show me objective evidence.  Show me something your God can do that an imaginary person couldn't do.  I will wait.

[Thumbelina]

That would be rude to say to someone. Based on what I've been reading about many of those who reject Christianity, they think  the God of the bible is mean; they think he'll burn finite sinners forever. If I truly believed that I'd be an atheist against that God too.

[mymistake]

4 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

That would be rude to say to someone. Based on what I've been reading about many of those who reject Christianity, they think  the God of the bible is mean; they think he'll burn finite sinners forever. If I truly believed that I'd be an atheist against that God too.

 

 

More importantly, most of them think the God of the Bible is probably imaginary.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

That would be rude to say to someone. Based on what I've been reading about many of those who reject Christianity, they think  the God of the bible is mean; they think he'll burn finite sinners forever. If I truly believed that I'd be an atheist against that God too.

I take it you've actually read the old testament? There's plenty in there that both Christians and atheists can agree is pretty sadistic and awful behaviour, either commanded or condoned by the 'lord.' So yes, we think the god of the bible is mean, and for good reason.

[quinntar]

On 4/17/2018 at 4:09 AM, mymistake said:

My favorite response is "There is no such thing as sin".

 

If that doesn't shut them up I would elaborate with:

 

Crime is real.  Crime is behavior that offend the government.  Rudeness is real.  Rudeness is behavior that offends the people around you.  Sin is behavior that offend imaginary beings.  If imaginary beings are not real then neither is sin.

 

If the Believer counters with "But my God is not imaginary because my God is real!" then I would come back with:

 

Okay show me objective evidence.  Show me something your God can do that an imaginary person couldn't do.  I will wait.

See the blow comes due to the fact that you do bad things sometimes, some people do bad things more often. So basically your being shoehorned into facing your own harmful behavior, it could just be behavior that's harmful to you. But it's there, and Christian's use this fact to get us to accept their sin theology.

[mymistake]

2 minutes ago, theanticrash said:

See the blow comes due to the fact that you do bad things sometimes, some people do bad things more often. So basically your being shoehorned into facing your own harmful behavior, it could just be behavior that's harmful to you. But it's there, and Christian's use this fact about us to inject their sin theology into us.

 

Okay, then I would further elaborate with "Sure, self harm is real.  There is behavior that harms the self.  And there are ways to deal with that self harm."

 

Many Christians think being born gay or bisexual harms yourself, or giving in to the natural urges for those born that way is self harmful but really it isn't.  Christians try to fit reality into the framework of their religion when it doesn't really fit.

 

[quinntar]

5 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

That would be rude to say to someone. Based on what I've been reading about many of those who reject Christianity, they think  the God of the bible is mean; they think he'll burn finite sinners forever. If I truly believed that I'd be an atheist against that God too.

All Gods really.

[quinntar]

1 minute ago, mymistake said:

 

Okay, then I would further elaborate with "Sure, self harm is real.  There is behavior that harms the self.  And there are ways to deal with that self harm."

 

Many Christians think being born gay or bisexual harms yourself, or giving in to the natural urges for those born that way is self harmful but really it isn't.  Christians try to fit reality into the framework of their religion when it doesn't really fit.

 

Yeah, true.

 

However the Christian will simply point out to you "You do bad things, or have done bad things, right?" And no matter how you account for your own bad behavior, you've got to accept that's true.

 

From here the Christian might say

 

"That's what sin is"

 

Then you're like hmm OK, see it's a very effective tactic 

 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, theanticrash said:

Yeah, true.

 

However the Christian will simply point out to you "You do bad things, or have done bad things, right?" And no matter how you account for your own bad behavior, you've got to accept that's true.

 

From here the Christian might say

 

"That's what sin is"

 

Then you're like hmm OK, see it's a very effective tactic 

 

 

So tell them that everyone does bad things, christian or non christian alike. Humans are human, nobody is perfect.

[quinntar]

Just now, TruthSeeker0 said:

So tell them that everyone does bad things, christian or non christian alike. Humans are human, nobody is perfect.

If you hold to that position the Christian will smile and say "There was someone who was without sin" 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, theanticrash said:

If you hold to that position the Christian will smile and say "There was someone who was without sin" 

So, then I would smile and say "yes, because you believe he actually existed." Really, just smile back and walk away. There is no reasoning with them. They define bad behaviour by biblical terms, and atheists don't. I would just point out that their holy book is nothing but stories for me, therefore lecturing me on the "bad behaviour" as defined in such is completely irrelevant. Just point out that your basis for "bad behaviour" is completely different therefore you have nothing in common, and leave it at that.

[quinntar]

4 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

So, then I would smile and say "yes, because you believe he actually existed." Really, just smile back and walk away. There is no reasoning with them. They define bad behaviour by biblical terms, and atheists don't. I would just point out that their holy book is nothing but stories for me, therefore lecturing me on the "bad behaviour" as defined in such is completely irrelevant. Just point out that your basis for "bad behaviour" is completely different therefore you have nothing in common, and leave it at that.

It's the definition, so true. 

[Geezer]

Sin is popular because it always involves something that is fun or feels really good. Behaving yourself & following all the rules tends to get boring rather quickly. 

 

According to fundamentalists Christians everyone is pretty much going to hell anyway, so we better have as much fun as we can for as long as we can.   

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, theanticrash said:

 

Then you're like hmm OK, see it's a very effective tactic 

 

 

Well not when I debate Christians.  They want to take their toys and go home.  But I see what you are getting at.  You have to know your stuff.  I was super heavy into Christian apologetics so I kind of have a feel for where they are going with it.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

On 5/3/2018 at 6:04 PM, Geezer said:

Sin is popular because it always involves something that is fun or feels really good. Behaving yourself & following all the rules tends to get boring rather quickly. 

 

According to fundamentalists Christians everyone is pretty much going to hell anyway, so we better have as much fun as we can for as long as we can.   

 

I've thought for a long time that all of those fun things the pastor used to rant about all the time during church services, are quite enjoyable. Does that mean I want to sin? No, not really. It means I like doing things that religious nuts like to tell me are sinful. Christians probably can't tell that there is a difference between those things, but as long as we know it, then their preaching is meaningless to us. It makes them fun to chew on when they're in the Lion's Den though.

 

OM NOM!

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:51 AM, Thumbelina said:

That would be rude to say to someone. Based on what I've been reading about many of those who reject Christianity, they think  the God of the bible is mean; they think he'll burn finite sinners forever. If I truly believed that I'd be an atheist against that God too.

 

I also think Sauron is an asshole for creating the one ring and causing so much suffering in Middle Earth. Good thing he, like Yahweh, is imaginary.

 

 

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

On 5/3/2018 at 6:04 PM, Geezer said:

Sin is popular because it always involves something that is fun or feels really good. Behaving yourself & following all the rules tends to get boring rather quickly. 

 

According to fundamentalists Christians everyone is pretty much going to hell anyway, so we better have as much fun as we can for as long as we can.   

No kidding! The amount of fear fundamentalists live in every day in the shadows of an angry, hateful God is astounding... as well as their insistence that spending an eternity with that entity and praising his insecure name somehow constitutes a heaven. It seems to be the Original Sin concept is often taken to the extreme of "existence itself is sin". Ok, then, I'm leaving Xianity not because I like sin, exactly, but because apparently sin is inescapable and preaching/living a double life of sinning and hating yourself for it is hypocritical - and I hate hypocrisy! 

[midniterider]

On 5/3/2018 at 8:51 AM, Thumbelina said:

That would be rude to say to someone. Based on what I've been reading about many of those who reject Christianity, they think  the God of the bible is mean; they think he'll burn finite sinners forever. If I truly believed that I'd be an atheist against that God too.

 

So in your own words, what is the final punishment? Or is there one?

[sdelsolray]

Criticizing "sin", claiming it does not exist, etc., can inhibit communication or cause miscommunication.  I've made similar claims.  What I've noticed is that communication is more thorough is such statements are preceded with a qualifier/premise.  

 

The term "sin " means acting, behaving or thinking in ways that violate rules or laws put forth by a god or gods.  Human societies have laws and regulations which forbid certain acts or behaviors.  Some are criminal laws.  Some are civil laws.  In addition, human societies discourage certain behaviors although those behaviors are not illegal under that societies' laws.

 

Not surprisingly, many of human socieities' forbidden and discouraged acts/behaviors and many of the sins of certain religious tents are identical, overlap or are similar.  Some are not.  Sinful behavior (in a religious context) and illegal/discouraged behavior (in a humanistic context) are often identical.  It's the same behavior.

 

The only difference is the source of the rules/laws, either an imaginary god or human societies.

 

Thus, I might say something like, "I do not believe in sin, nor do I believe I have sinned.  However, I have violated certain criminal and civil laws and I have behaved in certain unethical and immoral ways during my life."

[♦ Fuego ♦]

On 5/9/2018 at 2:17 AM, crazyguy123 said:

 

I also think Sauron is an asshole for creating the one ring and causing so much suffering in Middle Earth. Good thing he, like Yahweh, is imaginary.

 

 

 

Side note: I was thinking about this the other day. If the scriptures were regarded simply as an adventure story with some truly boring parts, then it could have some value. The bravery of Frodo, the enticing ring, the perseverance of the fellowship, embracing people who are "other" in a common cause; all of these and more could be paralleled in the scriptures (not surprising given the author was a believer). I think that is why The Odyssey and The Iliad were written, to give an interactive feel to otherwise absent gods. I find myself quoting Dumbledore from Harry Potter more than scriptures these days, because nuggets of wisdom can be found anywhere.

[mymistake]

11 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

Criticizing "sin", claiming it does not exist, etc., can inhibit communication or cause miscommunication.  I've made similar claims.  What I've noticed is that communication is more thorough is such statements are preceded with a qualifier/premise.  

 

The term "sin " means acting, behaving or thinking in ways that violate rules or laws put forth by a god or gods.  Human societies have laws and regulations which forbid certain acts or behaviors.  Some are criminal laws.  Some are civil laws.  In addition, human societies discourage certain behaviors although those behaviors are not illegal under that societies' laws.

 

Not surprisingly, many of human socieities' forbidden and discouraged acts/behaviors and many of the sins of certain religious tents are identical, overlap or are similar.  Some are not.  Sinful behavior (in a religious context) and illegal/discouraged behavior (in a humanistic context) are often identical.  It's the same behavior.

 

The only difference is the source of the rules/laws, either an imaginary god or human societies.

 

Thus, I might say something like, "I do not believe in sin, nor do I believe I have sinned.  However, I have violated certain criminal and civil laws and I have behaved in certain unethical and immoral ways during my life."

 

 

You are welcome to do it your way.  But inhibiting communication was my intention when the Christian narrative is that everything natural offends their invisible friend and we are born in a state of rebellion where we have no choice but to sin.  That crap needs to be stopped in it's tracks.

 

Come to think of it, isn't it funny how the Christian apologists assert that God had to allow sin because otherwise "we would be robots" but once Adam and Eve sinned we are robots who have no choice but to sin unless we accept the guidance of God in our lives?  More crap that needs to be stopped in it's tracks.

 

In my experience Christians are not trying to understand unless one has already begun the early steps of the deconversion process.  So yes, I could see why you would have a more sensitive and nuanced conversation with a deconverting Christian.  I save my "There is no sin" story for the Fire-and-Brimstone moments when Christians want to preach and judge.

 

 

[florduh]

Yes, I think this oldie but goody hasn't been improved upon.