Hell no

[quinntar]

Christian's if you're afraid and tormented by the idea that your non believing love one's could be lost to the fiery pit's of damnation, then doesn't that suggests that you are conflicted about the moral implications of God sending people there. I mean why do you stress about something that's just and fair? But you mustn't think it's fair if your up at night rolling around on your bed worried out of your mind.

[mwc]

     When I was younger my mom worked for herself and shared the office space with another guy that she had known for ages.  He was an atheist while we were xians.  I knew him a little and my mom described him as one of the best people she knew (in spite of his not believing).

 

     So, one day he dies and not long after this it begins to really bother me.  We're down at their office and his stuff is still there since it hadn't been too long afterward.  I asked my mom if it bothered her if this good guy, her friend, was now in hell?  Her only response was "I try not to think about it."  I didn't push the issue since I was young and it was her friend but that answer was not good enough for me.  It never was.  It's still not.

 

          mwc

 

[Thumbelina]

He is not in hell, ahem, yet.

He has to face the judgment.

He's in the grave.

[quinntar]

4 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

He is not in hell, ahem, yet.

He has to face the judgment.

He's in the grave.

Finally someone gets it, that's it I'm going back to Jesus! 

[mymistake]

4 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

He is not in hell, ahem, yet.

He has to face the judgment.

He's in the grave.

 

Hello Thumbelina, thank you for dropping by to grace us with your wisdom.

 

Why don't you answer the question that was asked in the original post?  Let's assume you are right and this atheist friend who died years ago is located in a place called "the grave" (not the actual cemetery plot but a spiritual place) and will be judged one day.  After judgement if the atheist gets sent to hell destroyed does that seem fair?  Like theanticrash said:

 

(Sorry, had to edit this when I remembered you don't believe in hell.)

But even if God destroys all the people who lose at judgement doesn't that seem harsh?

 

 

On 4/17/2018 at 3:19 PM, theanticrash said:

Christian's if you're afraid and tormented by the idea that your non believing love one's could be lost to the fiery pit's of damnation, then doesn't that suggests that you are conflicted about the moral implications of God sending people there. I mean why do you stress about something that's just and fair? But you mustn't think it's fair if your up at night rolling around on your bed worried out of your mind.

 

 

 

[quinntar]

23 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

Hello Thumbelina, thank you for dropping by to grace us with your wisdom.

 

Why don't you answer the question that was asked in the original post?  Let's assume you are right and this atheist friend who died years ago is located in a place called "the grave" (not the actual cemetery plot but a spiritual place) and will be judged one day.  After judgement if the atheist gets sent to hell destroyed does that seem fair?  Like theanticrash said:

 

(Sorry, had to edit this when I remembered you don't believe in hell.)

But even if God destroys all the people who lose at judgement doesn't that seem harsh?

 

 

 

 

 

If thumbelina thinks that God will burn up the non believer after judgment so destroying them completely, then is that not also a concern for her or any Christian who thinks that way?

 

Won't that still be a form of torture,? For being destroyed would still be a painful experience, right? Or does thumbelina think that the non believer just stays dead. Well then how would they be judged if the perish at death?

 

If they are judged, then that would mean they still exist in some form after death. OK, so back to my original point.

[Thumbelina]

I didn't even see the OP, sorry.

 

God's heart is also breaking for the ones who'll be lost. God, like us, has emotions (except His are perfect) & He has NO pleasure in the death of the wicked. Even though He already knows the outcome He still feels those painful emotions of His creatures being lost.

If you had a prodigal child who even breaks the civil laws, won't you & your family & friends be anxious that they will kill themself or be jailed? The problem is not the civil laws, it's the prodigal's wayward behavior that'll get him or her in trouble. What would happen if there's no justice?  Yes, it'll be sad if the prodigal gets jailed or killed while behaving in a rebellious way & a parent will cry for them but intellectually they will understand that the child did wrong & hurt others. An example of that is Absalom in the bible; David loved him but that kid was bad news. I can use Absalom as another example too; David did not take action when Absalom's sister got raped by her half brother & it made Absalom really really really angry. Justice is the other side of love. Love is a principle. Jesus ALREADY paid the penalty of the sins of this world, those who accept it won't have to perish because they broke God's laws. The bible said that God will wipe away all the tears of those who would lose people whom they loved; there'll eventually be no more sorrow. Time will heal the pain of losing someone that they love.

 

[mymistake]

9 minutes ago, Thumbelina said:

I didn't even see the OP, sorry.

 

God's heart is also breaking for the ones who'll be lost. God, like us, has emotions (except His are perfect) & He has NO pleasure in the death of the wicked. Even though He already knows the outcome He still feels those painful emotions of His creatures being lost.

If you had a prodigal child who even breaks the civil laws, won't you & your family & friends be anxious that they will kill themself or be jailed? The problem is not the civil laws, it's the prodigal's wayward behavior that'll get him or her in trouble. What would happen if there's no justice?  Yes, it'll be sad if the prodigal gets jailed or killed while behaving in a rebellious way & a parent will cry for them but intellectually they will understand that the child did wrong & hurt others. An example of that is Absalom in the bible; David loved him but that kid was bad news. I can use Absalom as another example too; David did not take action when Absalom's sister got raped by her half brother & it made Absalom really really really angry. Justice is the other side of love. Love is a principle. Jesus ALREADY paid the penalty of the sins of this world, those who accept it won't have to perish because they broke God's laws. The bible said that God will wipe away all the tears of those who would lose people whom they loved; there'll eventually be no more sorrow. Time will heal the pain of losing someone that they love.

 

 

 

Well I thank you for answering.  Personally I think it would be better if God were to step up here and now.  Let there be no rape.  Let there be no murder and no starvation.  Let there be no suffering.  That would be better in every way then God allowing all this chaos and suffering only to destroy people later in the name of justice.  That's my two cents.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Throughout history people have been burned. Some even crash planes into buildings but no one, save Jesus, has faced separation from God the way Jesus did, as yet. Ultimately, hell is separation from the Father & knowing it. Jesus experienced that for us so we won't have to. He sweated blood when He contemplated what He had to face.

[mymistake]

2 minutes ago, Thumbelina said:

 

 

Throughout history people have been burned. Some even crash planes into buildings but no one, save Jesus, has faced separation from God the way Jesus did, as yet. Ultimately, hell is separation from the Father & knowing it. Jesus experienced that for us so we won't have to. He sweated blood when He contemplated what He had to face.

 

 

It certainly makes for a great story.

[quinntar]

22 minutes ago, Thumbelina said:

I didn't even see the OP, sorry.

 

God's heart is also breaking for the ones who'll be lost. God, like us, has emotions (except His are perfect) & He has NO pleasure in the death of the wicked. Even though He already knows the outcome He still feels those painful emotions of His creatures being lost.

If you had a prodigal child who even breaks the civil laws, won't you & your family & friends be anxious that they will kill themself or be jailed? The problem is not the civil laws, it's the prodigal's wayward behavior that'll get him or her in trouble. What would happen if there's no justice?  Yes, it'll be sad if the prodigal gets jailed or killed while behaving in a rebellious way & a parent will cry for them but intellectually they will understand that the child did wrong & hurt others. An example of that is Absalom in the bible; David loved him but that kid was bad news. I can use Absalom as another example too; David did not take action when Absalom's sister got raped by her half brother & it made Absalom really really really angry. Justice is the other side of love. Love is a principle. Jesus ALREADY paid the penalty of the sins of this world, those who accept it won't have to perish because they broke God's laws. The bible said that God will wipe away all the tears of those who would lose people whom they loved; there'll eventually be no more sorrow. Time will heal the pain of losing someone that they love.

 

But there are decent caring people who by no fault of their own are born in the wrong culture with the wrong religion & miss the revelation. The thing about your God is that he will destroy (Punish) those who simply don't know him. Is not knowing someone a crime? 

[Thumbelina]

Man is not the ultimate arbiter of morality, God is.

God has given every man a measure of faith. Most folk have a yearning for Him even if they don't understand it. If there's someone who has had NO reasoning, like their frontal lobes completely destroyed, & based on my reasoning from the scriptures, God will leave them dead  just like He will babies who died. They can't make a choice if they definitely don't understand. That is the minority of people though.

God will punish willful blindness ( check out the acted parable of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed).

[quinntar]

1 minute ago, Thumbelina said:

Man is not the ultimate arbiter of morality, God is.

God has given every man a measure of faith. Most folk have a yearning for Him even if they don't understand it. If there's someone who has had NO reasoning, like their frontal lobes completely destroyed, & based on my reasoning from the scriptures, God will leave them dead  just like He will babies who died. They can't make a choice if they definitely don't understand. That is the minority of people though.

God will punish willful blindness ( check out the acted parable of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed).

I yearn for social connection's and meaningful relationships. Having a relationship with an invisible person is psychologically damaging.

[Anushka]

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

I didn't even see the OP, sorry.

 

God's heart is also breaking for the ones who'll be lost. God, like us, has emotions (except His are perfect) & He has NO pleasure in the death of the wicked. Even though He already knows the outcome He still feels those painful emotions of His creatures being lost.

If you had a prodigal child who even breaks the civil laws, won't you & your family & friends be anxious that they will kill themself or be jailed? The problem is not the civil laws, it's the prodigal's wayward behavior that'll get him or her in trouble. What would happen if there's no justice?  Yes, it'll be sad if the prodigal gets jailed or killed while behaving in a rebellious way & a parent will cry for them but intellectually they will understand that the child did wrong & hurt others. An example of that is Absalom in the bible; David loved him but that kid was bad news. I can use Absalom as another example too; David did not take action when Absalom's sister got raped by her half brother & it made Absalom really really really angry. Justice is the other side of love. Love is a principle. Jesus ALREADY paid the penalty of the sins of this world, those who accept it won't have to perish because they broke God's laws. The bible said that God will wipe away all the tears of those who would lose people whom they loved; there'll eventually be no more sorrow. Time will heal the pain of losing someone that they love.

 

 

.

[Thumbelina]

We all yearn for that but life is just too short & painful at times. Mass shootings, plane crashes, diseases, betrayals ... . Earthly things don't last or aren't certain. The correct understanding of God's love will draw people to Him (John 12:32 ). God yearns for us, He wants to share His universe with us.

[Thumbelina]

I don't believe I'm being obtrusive when I discuss religion in the place where it is permitted.

I mean no harm.

[mymistake]

40 minutes ago, Thumbelina said:

We all yearn for that but life is just too short & painful at times. Mass shootings, plane crashes, diseases, betrayals ... . Earthly things don't last or aren't certain. The correct understanding of God's love will draw people to Him (John 12:32 ). God yearns for us, He wants to share His universe with us.

 

Yet he doesn't stop the mass shootings, plane crashes, diseases, betrayals and so on.  Sorry but God's inactions speak louder than God's word.  If God really cared then God wouldn't stand around watching while people suffered.

[quinntar]

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

We all yearn for that but life is just too short & painful at times. Mass shootings, plane crashes, diseases, betrayals ... . Earthly things don't last or aren't certain. The correct understanding of God's love will draw people to Him (John 12:32 ). God yearns for us, He wants to share His universe with us.

So you build certainty on a flimsy premise like God. Certainty is not built on faith, faith is employed when you're not certain about a situation.

[LogicalFallacy]

19 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

He is not in hell, ahem, yet.

He has to face the judgment.

He's in the grave.

 

Shes back. Hey Thumby.

 

8 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Jesus ALREADY paid the penalty of the sins of this world, those who accept it won't have to perish because they broke God's laws. The bible said that God will wipe away all the tears of those who would lose people whom they loved; there'll eventually be no more sorrow. Time will heal the pain of losing someone that they love.

 

I have two questions here - I hit Ironhorse with the first a number of times.... we ended up going in circles. Lets see if you can be a bit more direct with your answers. Bear with me we will be carrying on two seperate thought threads in the same conversation.

 

1) You say penalty for "sins of this world". What sins are they?

 

2) Something I've been pondering. You  make reference to Revelations 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

 

If you eventually forget your life on earth, as people will have to in order to be happy, what was the whole point of existence here? Christians like to claim that if atheists are right and we just die and that's it then life on earth is meaningless. But if a mother and father get to heaven then they will not have any memory of life on earth or how or why they got to heaven. If they did they'd remember they have a son who is now apparently burning in hell. So if they don't remember anything of this life "Former things are passed away" what's the point?

 

And imagine the grief in heaven if they do keep their memories for all those years as people wailed about their loved ones now condemned to eternity in hell.

 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

I didn't even see the OP, sorry.

 

God's heart is also breaking for the ones who'll be lost. God, like us, has emotions (except His are perfect) & He has NO pleasure in the death of the wicked. Even though He already knows the outcome He still feels those painful emotions of His creatures being lost.

If you had a prodigal child who even breaks the civil laws, won't you & your family & friends be anxious that they will kill themself or be jailed? The problem is not the civil laws, it's the prodigal's wayward behavior that'll get him or her in trouble. What would happen if there's no justice?  Yes, it'll be sad if the prodigal gets jailed or killed while behaving in a rebellious way & a parent will cry for them but intellectually they will understand that the child did wrong & hurt others. An example of that is Absalom in the bible; David loved him but that kid was bad news. I can use Absalom as another example too; David did not take action when Absalom's sister got raped by her half brother & it made Absalom really really really angry. Justice is the other side of love. Love is a principle. Jesus ALREADY paid the penalty of the sins of this world, those who accept it won't have to perish because they broke God's laws. The bible said that God will wipe away all the tears of those who would lose people whom they loved; there'll eventually be no more sorrow. Time will heal the pain of losing someone that they love.

 

Did god cry when he created hell? Did god cry when he decided he needed to create himself again and sacrifice a part of himself so that people wouldn't end up in that hell he created? You sound exactly like those in the church I left, you put god on a pedestal and refuse to judge his ethics or morality because this is somehow against the rules. Well, in reality, those of us who have woken up from the delusion realize what love is, and it isn't the Christian god no matter how you want to spin it. 

[Thumbelina]

Hello.

1)The sins of the world is not loving God with ALL our hearts, souls & minds & subsequently, not loving our neighbor as ourselves. The latter CANNOT be done without the former. We inherited selfishness from our first parents. The bible says we're born in sin & shapen in iniquity; that is a PREDICTIVE text, all men failed, & will fail, by sinning. I think the bible describes Enoch as being one of the best humans when it came to abiding in God but he too sinned. Only Jesus never sinned.

 

2) Who said that God has that pen from Men In Black that erases memory?
The redeemed will recall their redemption, just in a different way; they will sing the song of Moses & the lamb. Christians can do that even now (somewhat), people often say forgive & forget; it's basically impossible to forget but the Christian, by God's grace, can remember their experience in a different way. As time goes by they can forget the painful part for they understand that all their experiences work together for good.
Hell does not exist yet, it will exist after the judgment when God will give men the payment according to their work (evil deeds). To prove that God is a just judge & to show that the unrighteous will never, ever change, they will be resurrected & they will try to attack God & the saints (redeemed). ... read Revelation, see 20:9 etc.
When the evil people are behaving like demons, fire from God will come down & eventually destroy them. God's presence is the fire, the righteous would have had the blood of the lamb above their door posts so they can exist in God's presence, not so with the wicked.

[sdelsolray]

Thumby is back with her (more or less) annual proselytizing.

 

Hey Thumby, tell us the part again about how you're special and those that don't believe (exactly) like you do are evil, not worthy and will suffer.  That's some funny stuff.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Hello.

1)The sins of the world is not loving God with ALL our hearts, souls & minds & subsequently, not loving our neighbor as ourselves. The latter CANNOT be done without the former. We inherited selfishness from our first parents. The bible says we're born in sin & shapen in iniquity; that is a PREDICTIVE text, all men failed, & will fail, by sinning. I think the bible describes Enoch as being one of the best humans when it came to abiding in God but he too sinned. Only Jesus never sinned.

 

Capitalizing words don't make them more legitimate or truthful. "The bible says....." claims have little impact on this forum. Just saying. Most of us here view the bible as a collection of stories, fairytales, or myths.

[quinntar]

16 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Hello.

1)The sins of the world is not loving God with ALL our hearts, souls & minds & subsequently, not loving our neighbor as ourselves. The latter CANNOT be done without the former. We inherited selfishness from our first parents. The bible says we're born in sin & shapen in iniquity; that is a PREDICTIVE text, all men failed, & will fail, by sinning. I think the bible describes Enoch as being one of the best humans when it came to abiding in God but he too sinned. Only Jesus never sinned.

 

2) Who said that God has that pen from Men In Black that erases memory?
The redeemed will recall their redemption, just in a different way; they will sing the song of Moses & the lamb. Christians can do that even now (somewhat), people often say forgive & forget; it's basically impossible to forget but the Christian, by God's grace, can remember their experience in a different way. As time goes by they can forget the painful part for they understand that all their experiences work together for good.
Hell does not exist yet, it will exist after the judgment when God will give men the payment according to their work (evil deeds). To prove that God is a just judge & to show that the unrighteous will never, ever change, they will be resurrected & they will try to attack God & the saints (redeemed). ... read Revelation, see 20:9 etc.
When the evil people are behaving like demons, fire from God will come down & eventually destroy them. God's presence is the fire, the righteous would have had the blood of the lamb above their door posts so they can exist in God's presence, not so with the wicked.

Umm, I just don't get it, any of it. What does this have to do with love? 

 

Read 1 Corinthians 13

 

 

[Thumbelina]

 There can be no love without justice as long as sin exists. Would we really want a God who behaves like Afluenza kid's mom? That high school shooter & others like him, should they just get a slap on the wrist & be sent back in society? Should God give eternal life to people who refuse to obey His commandments & who would not live peaceably with his/her fellow men? 1 Corinthians 13 says love suffers long, not forever.

 

 

People tend to focus on hell when they should be focusing on a God who gave Himself so we can live.