readyforchange Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 On 5/18/2018 at 1:01 AM, Thumbelina said: God is longsuffering, He gives people chances, Uzzah knew better but he was presumptuous. It is better for one person or some people to die than for the entire human race to perish; the savior of the world needed to be born & God needed an obedient people to carry out His plan. If God had let Uzzah's disobedience slide He wouldn't have been able to keep order. The ark contained God's ten commandment law, God exalts His Word more than His name (not that His name isn't important). The commandment law represents God's character & His government. God had to curb the evil in this world & that's what He did. Is there any context from the Biblical account of Uzzah that suggests that Uzzah was presumptuous? When I read 2 Samuel 6 and 1 Chronicles 13, I I do not see anything describing Uzzah's attitude at the time. What if Uzzah just had a natural human instinct kick in to try and catch something valuable that was about to fall? This is a story I find somewhat puzzling. Did the person or people who originally placed the ark on top of the cart do it without touching the ark themselves, and did that person or those people also die? It seems plausible that someone could have been injured during the transport of the ark and later died. Then a story about what happened became exaggerated to where the person died because Yahweh commanded that no one touch the ark. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 3 hours ago, readyforchange said: Is there any context from the Biblical account of Uzzah that suggests that Uzzah was presumptuous? When I read 2 Samuel 6 and 1 Chronicles 13, I I do not see anything describing Uzzah's attitude at the time. What if Uzzah just had a natural human instinct kick in to try and catch something valuable that was about to fall? This is a story I find somewhat puzzling. Did the person or people who originally placed the ark on top of the cart do it without touching the ark themselves, and did that person or those people also die? It seems plausible that someone could have been injured during the transport of the ark and later died. Then a story about what happened became exaggerated to where the person died because Yahweh commanded that no one touch the ark. A synonym for presumptuous is overconfident. The bible says that one should not mix the Holy with the profane or the common (see Leviticus 10:10 etc.) & Uzzah disobeyed God's expressed command that ONLY the priests, the descendants of Aaron, were to touch the ark or even to look upon it uncovered. Numbers 4:15 says the sons of Kohath could lift the ark by staves. Numbers 7:9 says the ark was only supposed to be carried by the sons of Kohath on their shoulders. When the descendants of Aaron touched the ark nothing happened to them, they were commanded by God to do so. The ark was not supposed to be on any cart! When the Philistines touched it God winked because of their ignorance (Acts 17:10). Based on biblical principles & cross referencing the texts, one can deduce that Uzzah knew better & was presumptuous (see John 9:41). Why do soldiers in the military have such strict rules & need to follow their commander's expressed commands? Why do they have to obey orders? Is their obeying orders helpful for the team & the country they're fighting for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 On 5/19/2018 at 11:41 PM, Astreja said: Dead people cannot experience anything. He is risen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 7 hours ago, Thumbelina said: He is risen. Edit: Perhaps my first response was too harsh. How about this: Do you have objective evidence that it is real? In other words do you have more than personal experience and an old book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Thumbelina said: He is risen. Nope. Just a silly myth. People do not come back from the dead. They get cremated, or their bodies rot, and their atoms eventually make it back into the environment. That is the only "eternal life" that we can reasonably hope for, but our personalities do not come along for the ride -- our ideas, beliefs, memories and sense of self die forever when our brains die. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 4 hours ago, Thumbelina said: He is risen. So it has been said. Hang on. If he's the bread of life, and he is risen, is it time to get baked? Is that a sin? I can't keep up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 On 5/21/2018 at 2:26 AM, Astreja said: Nope. Just a silly myth. People do not come back from the dead. They get cremated, or their bodies rot, and their atoms eventually make it back into the environment. That is the only "eternal life" that we can reasonably hope for, but our personalities do not come along for the ride -- our ideas, beliefs, memories and sense of self die forever when our brains die. Initially yes, you are right, the dead know not anything ( Ecc 9:5) but there's hope. You sound like Solomon when he became atheistic & pessimistic about the future (afterlife). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 20 hours ago, Ann said: Apologies for jumping on your train @LogicalFallacy Your question to @Thumbelina is well put and well written. I'd would like to pose a similar question on the concept of being born into sin, but wrapped in crassness....because that is how my brain works. Thumbelina....So now, humans aren't really born into sin....the goal post has moved. How convenient for you....and now we are born with the propensity to sin. So with that new insight, I wonder why god sends dead babies to hell? Let me explain. You may think babies do not sin because they can't make a choice. Wrong! Babies are nothing but selfish, egocentric beings. All they care about is themselves. When have you seen a baby make a choice other than the ones they make for themselves? You may think babies don't make choices, but I have seen babies stop crying when a sweet was placed in front of them. On some level, that baby made a choice....so babies go to hell because they can make choices and they are selfish and selfishness is a sin. Why does your god send babies to hell when they die? And if you say that babies don't really know what they are choosing....then do you think the guy that saved the ark of the c from falling knew in that moment what he was choosing? Or was he punished for not thinking carefully before he chose and was punished for reacting before thinking?....Like a reflex. Kinda like babies reacting and making a choice without careful thought? Why does one scenario get punished (dude who touched the ark) and the other not (babies)? All humans are born with sinful natures, even Jesus *gasp*. Humans are born with sinful tendencies or with a sinful nature which is not sin itself; people sin which is why they become sinners. Jesus had a human nature like ours (see Hebrews 2:14) but He NEVER sinned; as a human He was able to be tempted, just like us. Adam passed down a sinful nature to all, so all tend to die the first death (God took Enoch so he got to skip the first death) but Enoch was born again, He was converted. However, only those who sin & remain that way, by not accepting Jesus's sacrifice for all mankind, will die the second death (destruction/ obliteration in hell). For someone to be considered to be deserving of the second death, they have to be cognizant of right & wrong, hence, babies & children who don't understand what they're doing WON'T be destroyed in hell. Jesus stated two prerequisites for baptism (an outward witness of an inward change) in Matthew 28:14 & Mark 16:16; a person has to be taught the basics of salvation (John 3:16)- the Eunuch had to be rightly taught before he was baptized- & they need to have faith or believe, in order to be saved. In Acts 2:38 Peter gave another prerequisite for baptism, a person has to repent. Can a baby & children who don't quite understand what they're doing do those three things? That's why baptizing them before they understand makes no sense. It is better to dedicate them to God or ask God 's influence into their lives. Scripture says that Jesus had the Holy Spirit from the womb, seems like John the Baptist did too; they grew up in homes where the Holy Spirit was invited. The bible says that the Holy Spirit is given in increments, I believe that because Jesus had the Holy Spirit near at all times & He was ALWAYS filled with said Spirit, He was a perfect baby & not selfish & separated from God. That continual abiding in God made Him not even deserve the first death & He never had to be born again. His mother, Mary, had to give offerings for her own sins but Jesus never had to give any offerings for sin because He never did sin. While John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit too, He sinned (all it takes is one time) so he had the Holy Spirit with measure. I've seen a near perfect baby/child in modern times, won't cry when hungry, quite polite, mostly calm, had a Mona Lisa smile & an all round sweet child & that child belonged in a nominal Christian home & perhaps a quasi agnostic one too. I said that to say this, there are rules of engagement with God, the Holy Spirit was welcomed in Mary & Joseph's home; that family whom I know is a really nice family but they don't know much about salvation etc & one of them sort of doubts the veracity of the bible. If in these times, people can be sooooo nice, can you imagine how it was in a home where the Holy Spirit was totally welcomed? Concerning Uzzah, they weren't supposed to be trying to move the ark on a cart in the first place, the sons of Aaron were supposed to carry it. He was treating the ark as a trivial thing, the ark was at his house previously so he KNEW the rules, He was being uber disrespectful (see John 9:4; John 15:22; James 4:7 to see the principle about presumption). I bet the others learned to follow instructions after that incident. The Messiah had to be born to save the world, God was making a Holy line, hence in the OT, under the Theocracy, some of the rules were more strict; the Holy line would have been in jeopardy if God didn't do some of the seemingly harsh things that He did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 5 hours ago, Thumbelina said: Initially yes, you are right, the dead know not anything ( Ecc 9:5) but there's hope. Do you have objective evidence that salvation is real? In other words do you have more than personal experience and an old book? If salvation is a myth then you offer false hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 5 hours ago, Thumbelina said: Initially yes, you are right, the dead know not anything ( Ecc 9:5) but there's hope. You sound like Solomon when he became atheistic & pessimistic about the future (afterlife). "Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it." - Raistlin Majere in Dragons of Autumn Twilight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 14 hours ago, Ann said: Who makes these rules? God, clearly. Silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 21 hours ago, Ann said: A question just popped up....So if Uzzah and "they" whoever "they" are.....weren't supposed to be moving the ark in the first place, then why did god wait until Uzzah touched the arc to kill him? Why not kill him immediately when "they" were trying to move it in the first place? And why Uzzah?....you used the word "they" so there were others also doing something they knew they shouldn't.....why did god only punish Uzzah and not the "they" too? That is easy. When people loaded the ark on the cart (which was a sin) God showed them mercy because God's kindness and love are endless. When the ark was about to fall off the cart but Uzzah saved it (which was a sin) that is when God killed Uzzah because God is a God of justice who cannot tolerate sin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 18 hours ago, Thumbelina said: However, only those who sin & remain that way, by not accepting Jesus's sacrifice for all mankind, will die the second death (destruction/ obliteration in hell). For someone to be considered to be deserving of the second death, they have to be cognizant of right & wrong, hence, babies & children who don't understand what they're doing WON'T be destroyed in hell. Your posts are like a second death. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 18 hours ago, Thumbelina said: All humans are born with sinful natures, even Jesus *gasp*. Humans are born with sinful tendencies or with a sinful nature which is not sin itself; people sin which is why they become sinners. I was not born with a sinful nature nor have I ever sinned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 2 hours ago, midniterider said: I was not born with a sinful nature nor have I ever sinned. Yes! None of us have sinned. None of us were born in sin. Sin is make believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 On 5/22/2018 at 10:33 PM, Ann said: Sin is make believe too??? What will religions use to scare us with if there is no such thing as sin? Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 On 5/22/2018 at 6:02 PM, disillusioned said: God, clearly. Silly. You know the answer! Yes, I see the sarcasm but you're disillusioned so I see why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 On 5/22/2018 at 10:01 PM, midniterider said: I was not born with a sinful nature nor have I ever sinned. *side eye* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 On 5/24/2018 at 1:04 PM, midniterider said: On 5/23/2018 at 1:33 AM, Ann said: Sin is make believe too??? What will religions use to scare us with if there is no such thing as sin? Exactly. If there's no sin then there's no law (only in people's preconceived minds) & vice versa. ... but it ain't so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 28, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, Thumbelina said: If there's no sin then there's no law (only in people's preconceived minds) & vice versa. ... but it ain't so. No. There are still laws. Gravity is a law. Entropy is a law. You are confusing law with morality; but you're still failing, because plenty of people have morals without the concept of sin. The reality is that if there is no sin, christ's death is meaningless. Without meaning the cross is worthless. A worthless cross means no heaven ever after and all your hopes and dreams are but ash and dust. Have fun with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 21 minutes ago, Thumbelina said: You know the answer! Yes, I see the sarcasm but you're disillusioned so I see why. Don't you think it is strange that God makes all these rules but God never tells us about them in person? God always uses some random person to write God's word or to tell us what God thinks. And for every real, genuine message from God there are thousands upon thousands of false prophets who spread false messages from false gods. Gee, why did God decide to make his message the needle in a haystack of lies? And no, don't give me that nonsense about listening to your heart or knowing the Bible to figure out which prophets are true and which are false. It doesn't work. Only the message you choose is the right one, according to you. But the next Christian visitor will tel us a different message is the right one because he has the one and only true message from God. And so will the next guy and the next and the next. Your God looks imaginary. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 @TheRedneckProfessor Yes, we agree there are different laws but for humans to coexist there needs to be moral laws. The moral laws come under the umbrella of God's ten commandments. Is stealing wrong? Is murder, slander, going around deliberately giving partners HIV? ... You agree with the bible when you say unbelievers have morals without believing in a God (Romans 2:14). The thing is, humans are not saved by keeping the law, humans are saved by GRACE alone, through FAITH alone. God's standards are quite high & no man of himself can meet them. We have to yoke up with Christ to be perfected. I have to hand it to ya, you are thinking, you realize that antinomianism makes Christ & salvation unnecessary. I do believe moral laws are necessary & ultimately we can't truly do good (with pure heart & motive) without God. Edit: Good works and obedience are manifestations of believers saving relationship with God. The believer never does (should never do) works to be saved; that is legalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Thumb: The thing is, humans are not saved by keeping the law ... Saved from what? Oblivion? I'm cool with oblivion. Every night I enjoy 8 hours of oblivion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 28, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 28, 2018 10 hours ago, Thumbelina said: @ TheRedneckProfessor Yes, we agree there are different laws but for humans to coexist there needs to be moral laws. The moral laws come under the umbrella of God's ten commandments. Is stealing wrong? Is murder, slander, going around deliberately giving partners HIV? ... You agree with the bible when you say unbelievers have morals without believing in a God (Romans 2:14). The thing is, humans are not saved by keeping the law, humans are saved by GRACE alone, through FAITH alone. God's standards are quite high & no man of himself can meet them. We have to yoke up with Christ to be perfected. I have to hand it to ya, you are thinking, you realize that antinomianism makes Christ & salvation unnecessary. I do believe moral laws are necessary & ultimately we can't truly do good (with pure heart & motive) without God. Edit: Good works and obedience are manifestations of believers saving relationship with God. The believer never does (should never do) works to be saved; that is legalism. See, the thing is, you said earlier that without sin there would be no law. Now you're saying that the law is irrelevant because of grace through faith. If the law is unnecessary; then sin must also be irrelevant, since sin is what made the law necessary in the first place. You have thus argued yourself right back to the meaninglessness of the cross, because both sin, and the law, are irrelevant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 14 hours ago, midniterider said: Thumb: The thing is, humans are not saved by keeping the law ... Saved from what? Oblivion? I'm cool with oblivion. Every night I enjoy 8 hours of oblivion. Yeah, but the 2nd death (which eventually leads to oblivion) won't be peachy keen (understatement). You get ten brownie points for understanding that death is a sleep (John 11:11-14). The dead are not conscious, they can't do anything. Edit: You think death is a welcome friend and NOT a terrible foe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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