Hell no

[quinntar]

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

 

 

Did Jesus commit suicide, did He nail Himself to the cross?

He permitted those things in order to save us!

Sacrifice is to give up something important or valued for the sake of other considerations. Jesus abhors sin & He sacrificed Himself by having an abhorrent thing placed on Him & He experienced death & most importantly, separation from the Father in order to save us.

 

Altruism originated with God & God's image is not totally obliterated in us humans; if it was we'd be exactly like the demons. Humans, including atheists, can do good deeds (Romans 2:14).

 

We see humans willing to give their lives to save others-- firefighters, soldiers, policemen & women etc.-- throughout history but they get paid.

Here's an amazing story of someone sacrificing for their loved ones & there was no pay:

 

Mass. mom saves kids by throwing herself in front of car

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/03/19/massachusetts-mom-speedbump-saves-kids/6612509/

 

 

Do you think that mom would've done that for her adversary? Did Jesus give His life for His adversaries?

..............

 

The bible says there are false sacrifices too, if a person gives up their body to be burned & it's not because of love then they did that in vain (like the crazies who flew in to the twin towers). I put that in cuz  I'm just balancing out the theology.

 

If we, being evil, can sometimes give up our lives to save another, it has to mean God gave up even more. If evil people can feel shame & guilt & all those emotions that indicate we're separated from God, how do you think Jesus felt when the sins (past, present & future) of the entire planet was mysteriously (1 Tim 3:16) placed upon Him? There was a sundering between Him & the Father & that pain superseded any physical pain. Sin was His kryptonite.  He experienced hell/death. The word hell is used 54 times in the bible;  31 times sheol is translated as hell in the OT & it means the grave. In the NT it Hades is translated hell & that too means the grave. It is translated from the word Gehenna, which means a place of burning &1 time it is translated from Tartarus which means a place of darkness. we deserve death but Jesus didn't.

 

 

Jesus experienced hell/the grave for us. Since He never sinned He became the 2nd Adam & therefore, He legitimately gave eternal life to us, whereas the 1st Adam had passed death to us. Those who reject the salvation offered to them will experience the 2nd death which will be burning in the lake of fire. 

Does this planet still exist?

Then hell does not exist yet. It says in Revelation that it is this planet on fire that's going to be the place of burning, what we call hell. Also, hell won't be like in  the Greek mythologies, the bible says that the last enemy to be defeated is death. The fire (God's holy presence) will consume sin & sin will exist no more.

I remember many many year's ago I saved a child from being trampled to death by a horse. I guess now I own her soul for all eternity.

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Did Jesus commit suicide, did He nail Himself to the cross?

He permitted those things in order to save us! 

 

This makes no sense.  There is no logic for why the cross would save anybody.  Oh God had to or else God couldn't forgive?  That means God is weak and puny.  A mere human can forgive without a blood sacrifice.  A human can forgive in exchange for nothing at all.  Are humans better than God at forgiveness?  It's nonsense.

 

 

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Sacrifice is to give up something important or valued for the sake of other considerations. Jesus abhors sin & He sacrificed Himself by having an abhorrent thing placed on Him & He experienced death & most importantly, separation from the Father in order to save us.

 

Let's be honest, in the story Jesus didn't sacrifice himself.  Jesus sacrificed his weekend.

 

 

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Altruism originated with God & God's image is not totally obliterated in us humans; if it was we'd be exactly like the demons. Humans, including atheists, can do good deeds (Romans 2:14).

 

We see humans willing to give their lives to save others-- firefighters, soldiers, policemen & women etc.-- throughout history but they get paid.

 

You can find dozens of videos on youtube of dogs risking their own lives to save another dog.  No belief in God is required.  Animals can do it.  And people have done it without pay and even for strangers.  All it takes is empathy.

 

 

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Did Jesus give His life for His adversaries?

 

Not if Jesus is still alive.  You don't give up your life and also get to keep it.  Stop acting like Jesus did something super special.  If God is all powerful then the whole death thing was optional drama.  If Jesus didn't stay dead then he didn't give up anything.

 

 

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

If evil people can feel shame & guilt & all those emotions that indicate we're separated from God, how do you think Jesus felt when the sins (past, present & future) of the entire planet was mysteriously (1 Tim 3:16) placed upon Him?

 

You are imagining it all.  None of that happened.  You can't be separated from somebody who doesn't exist.  Jesus feeling bad in a story is like Luke Skywalker learning that Darth Vader is his father.

 

 

1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Then hell does not exist yet.

 

Nor will it ever.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Man, why you still being difficult, huh? It's implied in my answer that there are wrong words that are taught that can cause folks to wrest the scriptures to their own destruction --- like thinking God will torture people throughout the ceaseless ages & avoiding Him as a result .

You could set us straight, Thumperina.  All you need to do is answer the question we've all been asking:  Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

[quinntar]

Here's a verse from the Bible I really like.

 

Romans 2:24

24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

 

Yeah, because of you Christian's. 

 

I can't help but notice that the early church was riddled with issue's. For people who had the living Apostle's with them, they sure had a lot of drama. 

[duderonomy]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:54 AM, Thumbelina said:

He is not in hell, ahem, yet.

He has to face the judgment.

He's in the grave.

 

Judgment for what?  Love covers the multitude of sins and God is love.  If that isn't enough, the Bible tells us that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. It's all in the Bible, so why the veiled threats? God's got this.

[midniterider]

On 5/9/2018 at 9:20 PM, Thumbelina said:

Sacrifice is to give up something important or valued for the sake of other considerations. Jesus abhors sin & He sacrificed Himself by having an abhorrent thing placed on Him & He experienced death & most importantly, separation from the Father in order to save us.

 

 

So Jesus is dead now?

[Storm]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:11 PM, Thumbelina said:

God's heart is also breaking for the ones who'll be lost. God, like us, has emotions (except His are perfect) & He has NO pleasure in the death of the wicked. Even though He already knows the outcome He still feels those painful emotions of His creatures being lost.

 

What are imperfect emotions? Is sadness or joy or despair or anticipation imperfect when they exhibit in humans? In what way are "God's" emotions perfect?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Storm said:

What are imperfect emotions? Is sadness or joy or despair or anticipation imperfect when they exhibit in humans? In what way are "God's" emotions perfect?

I didn't understand the whole point of imperfect emotions either. I suspect Thumby is meaning that perfect emotions are positive ones and imperfect ones are negative. If so, I don't know how this can be supported, as the god of the Bible has plenty of negative emotions and at  one point he supposedly flooded the whole earth due to his negative emotions. Either that or Thumby is just stating that the extian god is beyond reproach. And that's the approach one must take to continue to believe in fiction. 

[Storm]

1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I didn't understand the whole point of imperfect emotions either. I suspect Thumby is meaning that perfect emotions are positive ones and imperfect ones are negative. If so, I don't know how this can be supported, as the god of the Bible has plenty of negative emotions and at  one point he supposedly flooded the whole earth due to his negative emotions. Either that or Thumby is just stating that the extian god is beyond reproach. And that's the approach one must take to continue to believe in fiction. 

You may be right, but I have no idea what she means by perfect emotions. I wasn't aware that emotions were flawed.

[Astreja]

41 minutes ago, Storm said:

You may be right, but I have no idea what she means by perfect emotions. I wasn't aware that emotions were flawed.

 

That's because emotions aren't flawed.  They are expressions of specific mental states.

 

However, people often have a tendency to see others' emotions as wrong -- for instance, telling them that they should not be angry, should forgive so-and-so, and similar thoughtless and intrusive BS.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

That's because emotions aren't flawed.  They are expressions of specific mental states.

 

However, people often have a tendency to see others' emotions as wrong -- for instance, telling them that they should not be angry, should forgive so-and-so, and similar thoughtless and intrusive BS.

I totally agree, emotions are not flawed. However with my fundamentalist upbringing I was taught to think that negative emotions aren't godly, therefore they are flawed. I can't speak for others of course but for me this resulted in a lot of emotional repression.

[mymistake]

5 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I totally agree, emotions are not flawed. However with my fundamentalist upbringing I was taught to think that negative emotions aren't godly, therefore they are flawed. I can't speak for others of course but for me this resulted in a lot of emotional repression.

 

 

I don't know about that.  I've struggled with depression my whole life and I just don't get that whole thing about validating emotions.  Not saying you guys are wrong - only that I don't understand it.  But I've met people with emotional disorders that were much worse than mine.  To me emotions are base instincts.  We can't help that we have them.  We can't help which ones we experience.  It's complicated.

[Storm]

7 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

 

I don't know about that.  I've struggled with depression my whole life and I just don't get that whole thing about validating emotions.  Not saying you guys are wrong - only that I don't understand it.  But I've met people with emotional disorders that were much worse than mine.  To me emotions are base instincts.  We can't help that we have them.  We can't help which ones we experience.  It's complicated.

This was exactly my point. Emotions are just emotions. They are neither right or wrong, or perfect or imperfect. They are simply our bodies response to situations. Even if someone has an emotional disorder, it doesn't make the emotions bad or good, the disorder is simply a malfunction of how the body reacts.

 

I think Thumbelina has some sort of Platonism thing going on in which she thinks that God's emotions are pure and perfect since he's God, and ours are imperfect since we are fallen, but the bible simply demonstrates that his emotions are no different than ours. I don't see any distinguishable difference.

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

 

I don't know about that.  I've struggled with depression my whole life and I just don't get that whole thing about validating emotions.  Not saying you guys are wrong - only that I don't understand it.  But I've met people with emotional disorders that were much worse than mine.  To me emotions are base instincts.  We can't help that we have them.  We can't help which ones we experience.  It's complicated.

Yeah I just think it's problematic to say that your emotions are somehow wrong. I agree that they are base instincts and they just are. I know my feelings on this arise from a lifetime of having to hide any negative emotions like frustration or anger. It did no good. 

[mymistake]

54 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Yeah I just think it's problematic to say that your emotions are somehow wrong. I agree that they are base instincts and they just are. I know my feelings on this arise from a lifetime of having to hide any negative emotions like frustration or anger. It did no good. 

 

 I agree.  I would never call an emotion wrong because wrong has multiple meanings.  But I wouldn't rely on emotions to provide information.  I don't trust my emotions.  I don't think they give me a clear picture of what is happening.  On the other hand there is no way to force somebody to have different emotions.  They will experience what they experience.

[mymistake]

2 hours ago, Storm said:

 

I think Thumbelina has some sort of Platonism thing going on in which she thinks that God's emotions are pure and perfect since he's God, and ours are imperfect since we are fallen, but the bible simply demonstrates that his emotions are no different than ours. I don't see any distinguishable difference.

 

 

 

Remember the time when the Ark of the Covenant was about to fall over and Uzzah saved it so God got angry and killed him instantly?  That will teach Uzzah to stop God from being spilled on the floor.

 

Or what about the time that Jesus created fig trees so they could only bear fruit during fig season, then Jesus checked a fig tree when it was out of season so Jesus cursed the tree for doing exactly what Jesus designed it to do?

 

Must be perfect!

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina said:

1)The sins of the world is not loving God with ALL our hearts, souls & minds & subsequently, not loving our neighbor as ourselves. The latter CANNOT be done without the former. We inherited selfishness from our first parents. The bible says we're born in sin & shapen in iniquity; that is a PREDICTIVE text, all men failed, & will fail, by sinning. I think the bible describes Enoch as being one of the best humans when it came to abiding in God but he too sinned. Only Jesus never sinned.

  ........

So how do we get this sin? If its applied at or just before we are born, at conception even it can be anything we do. You say sin is not loving god, but apparently we are already born with it before we can learn to love god. So which one is it?

 
Thumbelina says: The bible describes sin as transgression of God's law (the 10 commandments. See 1 John3:4). All humans are born with sinful propensities, even Jesus was born with the propensity to sin (as God He could not be tempted so He put on human flesh to be able to identify with us, therefore He was able to be tempted); every human failed/fell into sin except Jesus. Sins can only be committed by CHOICE, a person has to be cognizant of right & wrong in order to become a sinner (that's why baptizing babies & children too young to understand makes no sense). To be a sinner all one has to do is sin one time. Having a sinful human nature or having the propensity to sin is of itself not sin. The text I cited previously, about being born in sin & shapen in iniquity simply means humans have sinful proclivities; it's not saying zygotes are sinners.
Concerning that text, it's Psalm 51:5, the commentary Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges states:

5–8. He has inherited a sinful nature; and yet, so he is confident, God can and will make it conform to His desire. The emphatic ‘Behold!’ marks the beginning of a new stanza.

See? The Psalmist was stating that his nature is prone to sin.

Thumbelina said:
 
2) Who said that God has that pen from Men In Black that erases memory? ??

 .................. 

Basically Revelations does... and my old Christian preachers.

 Thumbelina says: Where in Revelation? Revelation 21:4? I stated that the bible says in Revelation that the Saints/redeemed will sing the song of Moses & the lamb, therefore, they will remember, they just won't mourn about the lost people any more. That type of thing happens even today, in this SHORT life, people who have children or loved ones who are demonic & commit atrocities may cry when their relative gets the death sentence but eventually they understand that the system was JUST by executing their loved one. I think psychologists have a list of the stages of grief. God is fair, He'll give the saints 1000 years to examine the books in heaven where the deeds of the lost are recorded (read Revelation for yourself) & He'll let them mourn/cry when fire from Him destroys them. 

After the 1000 years God will resurrect the lost to prove that time is not a factor, they will NEVER change & true to form, they'll try to attack God & the saints. By that time they would've rejected the Holy Spirit & spurned God's offer for eternal life; the Holy Spirit won't be striving with them, they'd have blasphemed the Spirit, hence they'd have committed the unpardonable sin, just like the devil & his angels. Their characters would be FIXED, they'll be demonic, they could not have been saved by all their "good" deeds, those are filthy rags. Salvation is by grace ALONE, through faith.

 

Be noble like the Bereans, check scripture for yourself, don't take what I or your ex preacher says without checking it out, m'kay?
...............

 

 

 

Thumbelina said:
The redeemed will recall their redemption, just in a different way; they will sing the song of Moses & the lamb. Christians can do that even now (somewhat), people often say forgive & forget; it's basically impossible to forget but the Christian, by God's grace, can remember their experience in a different way. As time goes by they can forget the painful part for they understand that all their experiences work together for good.
Hell does not exist yet, it will exist after the judgment when God will give men the payment according to their work (evil deeds).

 

 

Lets not mince words - when you say payment, you mean punishment. Hell. 

 

So you think it's according to their works. (Evil deeds) So a person who doesn't believe in God, but helps people all their life, contributes to their society etc. What is their payment? What about the person who rapes and murders someone then becomes reformed and believes god? And are there levels.... like minor offenses have one level and that's say 100,000 years, then other offenses might have 500,000 years, and the serial rapists, killers, mass murders etc.. they get 1,000,000 years. Is that what you mean "according to works?"

 

And doesn't the bible say it's not according to works but by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? (Like our rapist turned christian did)

Thumbelina says: I used bible-speak, the bible says God will give to every man according to His work [shall be]. Both the righteous & the wicked will get their wages 
( see Rev 22:12; Romans 2:6; Matt 16:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Job 34:11 etc.). Men are saved by grace ALONE but they will be judged by their works, in other words, how will their belief in God's grace manifest itself? The bible says man was created for good works but it is God who causes us to will & do his good works [pleasure]. According to the bible it seems if I apostatize & end up in hell (God forbid), I can burn longer than some of the most evil unbelievers out there. The bible says that it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened & have fallen away, to renew them back again. That text describes the unpardonable sin & those who know more will be held more accountable, to whom much is given, much is required. That's why hell was prepared for the devil & his angels, they willfully rejected light.

 
.................

Thumbelina said:
To prove that God is a just judge & to show that the unrighteous will never, ever change, they will be resurrected & they will try to attack God & the saints (redeemed). ... read Revelation, see 20:9 etc.
When the evil people are behaving like demons, fire from God will come down & eventually destroy them. God's presence is the fire, the righteous would have had the blood of the lamb above their door posts so they can exist in God's presence, not so with the wicked.

 
...............

A just God would have never created the system you claim he did. A malicious angry god maybe, but not a just all loving one.

Thumbelina says:

How would you do it?
As god, how would you get innumerable beings to respect you & each other AND factor in their free will too?

[Thumbelina]

Hmmmm, to whom much is given, much is required. Uzzah, one of God's people, touched the ark of the covenant & was struck down (dead) & what happened when the pagans touched the ark? They were given hemorrhoids. They had to give back the ark, get some Preparation H & they were good; well sorta, they needed God.

[Thumbelina]

Humans are made in God's image. We have a spiritual nature which comprises reason, conscience & worship. These are the highest faculties we have that make us like God (character, not power, m'kay?) Reason is the highest faculty. We also have a mind which comprises our will, thoughts & feelings. Those are lower faculties but they are important. Our spiritual nature ought to control our will with a holy, omniscient God directing it, of course. Feelings are data, because of sin our feelings aren't always right (perfect); sometimes our feelings are right- being upset about injustice, & sometimes they are wrong- coveting and envying other people's stuff etc. God is trying to fix us so we can be perfect as He is perfect.

 

P.S. If God did not get angry at injustice then something will be wrong with Him. That's what I meant by perfect emotions, it does not mean not having negative emotions. The emotions must rightly fit the circumstances.

 

God wanted to spare us knowing bad/negative emotions but Adam & Eve failed, they wanted to be as gods, knowing good & evil .

[Thumbelina]

On 5/14/2018 at 3:12 PM, Astreja said:

 

That's because emotions aren't flawed.  They are expressions of specific mental states.

 

However, people often have a tendency to see others' emotions as wrong -- for instance, telling them that they should not be angry, should forgive so-and-so, and similar thoughtless and intrusive BS.

 

Awww. I HATE when people invalidate how I feel too & yes, fellow believers are the worst offenders. Good thing God cares & He validates how I feel & His Word has good counsel to help me.

 

Heh heh, when Job's friends gave unsolicited advice he called them miserable comforters & physicians of no value.

[Storm]

5 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Humans are made in God's image. We have a spiritual nature which comprises reason, conscience & worship. These are the highest faculties we have that make us like God (character, not power, m'kay?) Reason is the highest faculty. We also have a mind which comprises our will, thoughts & feelings. Those are lower faculties but they are important. Our spiritual nature ought to control our will with a holy, omniscient God directing it, of course. Feelings are data, because of sin our feelings aren't always right (perfect); sometimes our feelings are right- being upset about injustice, & sometimes they are wrong- coveting and envying other people's stuff etc. God is trying to fix us so we can be perfect as He is perfect.

 

P.S. If God did not get angry at injustice then something will be wrong with Him. That's what I meant by perfect emotions, it does not mean not having negative emotions. The emotions must rightly fit the circumstances.

 

God wanted to spare us knowing bad/negative emotions but Adam & Eve failed, they wanted to be as gods, knowing good & evil .

 

Emotions are neither good or bad. They are simply responses to our situations. Its not "bad" to be angry or sad or disgusted. its not "good" to be happy or joyful or excited. While I do concede that I would rather be happy than angry, neither of these emotions are good or bad. The "negative" emotions oftentimes lead us to take action. If someone I love dies, I should feel sad and use that time to grieve and work through my thoughts and feelings about the person I loved. If I am angry about a wrong that has been done to me or someone I love, I am (or should be) moved to take action to rectify that situation. Jesus demonstrated this when he engaged the moneychangers in the temple. Most Christians would classify what he did as "righteous" anger. If I am disgusted about something, again, I should be moved to take action to either remove myself (for protection) or to do something to make the situation better. So, negative emotions serve just as healthy a purpose for humans as the "positive" ones.

 

But as mymistake pointed out, God clearly isn't entirely in control of his emotions. If my daughter picked up the most valuable thing I owned and she knew it was wrong, my first reaction wouldn't be "kill her". But God killed Uzzah for the same reason (once again, he's "all powerful", there's no reason to think he couldn't come up with a better punishment or a way to keep the ark "clean" for his purposes). Wiping out most of humanity in the flood was a blatant overreaction if I ever saw one. Wiping out the Ninevites because of their sin or wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah or Tyre or any host of other places God chose to destroy would (IMHO) be an overreaction to those situations.If God is truly all powerful, he would have the power to change the lives of those people without destroying them. Instead, he simply gets angry and flies of the handle and goes on a killing spree pretty much all the time. That is the mindset of a tyrant, not a loving God.

 

Secondly, your statement "God wanted to spare us knowing bad/negative emotions" flies in the face of the whole suffering happens because God supposedly wants us to build character and help us to grow. That is why he uses discipline, etc. You seem to live in a utopian world where its all rainbows and unicorns and daisies. We should experience negative stuff, if only for the reason that it helps us appreciate the positive stuff more. But when I learn from negative experiences, I become a better person. That's a good thing.

 

[mymistake]

10 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Hmmmm, to whom much is given, much is required. Uzzah, one of God's people, touched the ark of the covenant & was struck down (dead) & what happened when the pagans touched the ark? They were given hemorrhoids. They had to give back the ark, get some Preparation H & they were good; well sorta, they needed God.

 

Were you trying to make the story sound like it was not silly?  Back when this story was first written the people had a completely different religion.  There was no Jesus, no Trinity, they didn't even have monotheism.  The story was invented by pagans.  And their War God was not a nice guy.  He had to be obeyed without question or else he was going to get angry at you.  It didn't have to be the right thing to do because the pagans didn't have just or righteous gods.  They had gods that demanded obedience.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Humans are made in God's image. We have a spiritual nature which comprises reason, conscience & worship. These are the highest faculties we have that make us like God (character, not power, m'kay?) Reason is the highest faculty. We also have a mind which comprises our will, thoughts & feelings. Those are lower faculties but they are important. Our spiritual nature ought to control our will with a holy, omniscient God directing it, of course. Feelings are data, because of sin our feelings aren't always right (perfect); sometimes our feelings are right- being upset about injustice, & sometimes they are wrong- coveting and envying other people's stuff etc. God is trying to fix us so we can be perfect as He is perfect.

 

P.S. If God did not get angry at injustice then something will be wrong with Him. That's what I meant by perfect emotions, it does not mean not having negative emotions. The emotions must rightly fit the circumstances.

 

God wanted to spare us knowing bad/negative emotions but Adam & Eve failed, they wanted to be as gods, knowing good & evil .

 

This is a nursery rhyme.  You might as well try to describe the human condition according to the story of Three Little Pigs or the story of Goldilocks.  God is made in our image, not the other way around.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Awww. I HATE when people invalidate how I feel too & yes, fellow believers are the worst offenders. Good thing God cares & He validates how I feel & His Word has good counsel to help me.

 

This is not true.  God never shows up.  God is never there.  God never says anything that you do not imagine.  God never validates us and never encourages us.  Instead we have to go to church and listen to other people constantly tell us God is doing stuff for us or else we realize it isn't true.  Or we have to read a book that men wrote and that men say is the word of God.  Stop bearing false witness.

 

 

[Thumbelina]

16 hours ago, Storm said:

 

Emotions are neither good or bad. They are simply responses to our situations. Its not "bad" to be angry or sad or disgusted. its not "good" to be happy or joyful or excited. While I do concede that I would rather be happy than angry, neither of these emotions are good or bad. The "negative" emotions oftentimes lead us to take action. If someone I love dies, I should feel sad and use that time to grieve and work through my thoughts and feelings about the person I loved. If I am angry about a wrong that has been done to me or someone I love, I am (or should be) moved to take action to rectify that situation. Jesus demonstrated this when he engaged the moneychangers in the temple. Most Christians would classify what he did as "righteous" anger. If I am disgusted about something, again, I should be moved to take action to either remove myself (for protection) or to do something to make the situation better. So, negative emotions serve just as healthy a purpose for humans as the "positive" ones.

 

But as mymistake pointed out, God clearly isn't entirely in control of his emotions. If my daughter picked up the most valuable thing I owned and she knew it was wrong, my first reaction wouldn't be "kill her". But God killed Uzzah for the same reason (once again, he's "all powerful", there's no reason to think he couldn't come up with a better punishment or a way to keep the ark "clean" for his purposes). Wiping out most of humanity in the flood was a blatant overreaction if I ever saw one. Wiping out the Ninevites because of their sin or wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah or Tyre or any host of other places God chose to destroy would (IMHO) be an overreaction to those situations.If God is truly all powerful, he would have the power to change the lives of those people without destroying them. Instead, he simply gets angry and flies of the handle and goes on a killing spree pretty much all the time. That is the mindset of a tyrant, not a loving God.

 

Secondly, your statement "God wanted to spare us knowing bad/negative emotions" flies in the face of the whole suffering happens because God supposedly wants us to build character and help us to grow. That is why he uses discipline, etc. You seem to live in a utopian world where its all rainbows and unicorns and daisies. We should experience negative stuff, if only for the reason that it helps us appreciate the positive stuff more. But when I learn from negative experiences, I become a better person. That's a good thing.

 

 

 

Emotions are neither good nor bad?

What about the increase in bigotry that's going on these days? People hating folk for arbitrary reasons; you won't describe their emotions of irrational hate as bad?

 

To be tempted with emotions of unrighteous indignation is not sin but entertaining it is, therefore, those emotions are bad. ... I think we sort of agree here.

... & we both agree that negative emotions have their place, some negative emotions are rational.

The bible acknowledges that humans feel negative emotions like anger but it says be angry & sin not.

 

 

 

God's emotions are perfectly controlled, He's not arbitrary. His emotions are controlled by His reason. As a god how would you get your intelligent creation to obey you?

God is longsuffering, He gives people chances, Uzzah knew better but he was presumptuous. It is better for one person  or some people to die than for the entire human race to perish; the savior of the world needed to be born & God needed an obedient people to carry out His plan. If God had let Uzzah's disobedience slide He wouldn't have been able to keep order. The ark contained God's ten commandment law, God exalts His Word more than His name (not that His name isn't important). The commandment law represents God's character & His government.  God had to curb the evil in this world & that's what He did.

 

The bible said that God did not want mankind to know good & evil; Adam & Eve were forbidden to eat from that tree.. An omniscient God knows what evil is. In order for created beings to know evil they have to either do it or observe it in others (like the sons of God observing Satan doing evil & harassing Job). God wants His children to willfully eschew evil; by the time this planet & the devils are done with sin, no being will want to participate in it (Nahum 1:9). Jesus died for the entire human race, His death conquered death so affliction & death can be fixed by Him eventually. 

 

 

 

We agree, God cursed the ground for man's sake. Pain, suffering & death are His ways of showing us that our autonomy can never work. Without Him there's no love, peace & joy. His system of government is best.

 

[mymistake]

7 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

 

Emotions are neither good nor bad?

What about the increase in bigotry that's going on these days? People hating folk for arbitrary reasons; you won't describe their emotions of irrational hate as bad?

 

 

Hate is from the Bible.  The OT is racist.  The NT is sectarian.

 

 

7 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

God's emotions are perfectly controlled, He's not arbitrary. His emotions are controlled by His reason.

 

It doesn't say that in the Bible.  You must have received your own private prophesy.  But even so, suppressing emotions is dangerous and leads to emotional disorders.  

 

 

7 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

As a god how would you get your intelligent creation to obey you?

 

All he has to do is say "let them obey me" and they would.  He has magic powers.  He created the universe by saying magic words.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 God is longsuffering, He gives people chances, Uzzah knew better but he was presumptuous.

 

Right.  It would have been better for the Ark to tumble over and the holy relics to fall on the ground.  Why didn't God show mercy or understanding or love in the story?  It's because Yahweh didn't have those qualities back when he was part of the pagan region that invented him.  He was the god of war, jealousy and anger.  He demanded absolute obedience or he would smite you.  The message was don't even try to help, mindlessly obey.

 

 

7 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

It is better for one person  or some people to die than for the entire human race to perish; the savior of the world needed to be born & God needed an obedient people to carry out His plan. If God had let Uzzah's disobedience slide He wouldn't have been able to keep order.

 

What rubbish.  God can do anything at all one minute but then when his actions don't make sense you make up crazy limitations the next.  All powerful being can't do stuff.  But now that we have Christianity God can let all kinds of sin slide and forgive everyone of everything as long as they are Christian.  Look at your hypocrisy.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

The ark contained God's ten commandment law, God exalts His Word more than His name (not that His name isn't important). The commandment law represents God's character & His government.

 

Back then the Ark contained God.  When Yahweh was invented he was a household idol.  Before they built him a temple he lived in a box.  But after they built him a temple he lived in a house.  Sure it was a large house but your God was small.  That is why everyone had to go to the house where God lived in order to worship.

 

 

 

[Astreja]

On 5/9/2018 at 11:20 PM, Thumbelina said:

Jesus experienced hell/the grave for us.

 

Dead people cannot experience anything.