Wertbag

Quick list of Global flood issues

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For a laugh I started putting together a bullet point list of all of the issues I could think of for the global flood and Noah's ark.  This is purely off the top of my head, but each item could be an essay on its own.  I tried to stick to categories rather than items that might double up.  I got to 50 items which seemed a nice round number:

  • People don’t live to be 900 years old

  • People aged 600 years aren’t taking on large construction projects

  • People aged 500 aren’t having children

  • 8 people and 2 of each animal must repopulate the world through inbreeding

  • Controlling the environment for snow/desert dwelling animals

  • Collecting animals from distant, non-connected lands

  • Spreading those animals back to distant, non-connected lands

  • Providing food for the animals with specific diets

  • Providing fresh meat

  • Providing clean water

  • Providing animals exercise

  • If only 14,000 “kinds” of animals are on-board then mega-evolution is required to diversify those to the millions of species seen today

  • Cave paintings from around the world should have been washed clean

  • Many civilisations existed prior to, during and after the flood timeline

  • Finding food after the world has been submerged for a year

  • How to contain insects

  • How fish will survive a mixed fresh/salt water sea

  • Why the fossil layers don’t show a jumble of species together

  • How you build a wooden ship of a size not possible for many thousands of years, without heavy machinery or steel

  • How you make a ship of that size not destroy itself when faced with the greatest storm in history

  • There is not enough water in the world to cover the mountains and no where for it to drain to afterwards

  • How to keep the air below decks oxygenated

  • The dove flew out and collected an olive branch, yet all olive trees would have been under water for a year

  • Were dinosaurs on the ark?  If so all animal needs are amplified to new levels

  • If dinosaurs were on the ark, then was it Noah or God who failed to save them?

  • How to clear out waste products

  • The force of the water required, in the time required

  • Keeping animals from crashing around during massive waves

  • With only 2 of every animal released from the ark, the first carnivore to eat will wipe out an entire species

  • How to pay for the tools, wood and logistics for the construction project

  • The 8 people were not known as ship builders or animal carers

  • All powerful god couldn’t think of a less convoluted method

  • Punishment for wickedness includes killing all babies, children and animals

  • If wickedness existed before and after this event, then it didn’t fix the problem

  • How did parasites survive?

  • How did rainbows not exist prior?

  • With limited population was Noah able to give a burnt sacrifice without wiping out species?

  • Polar ice core samples show no sign of a flood

  • Trees have been confirmed alive that are over 10,000 years old

  • Seeds, nuts, bulbs, how to save the multitude of plant species

  • The combined weight of animals, drinking water, food and structure would be more than floatation provided by a boat of the arks dimensions

  • Epic of Gilgamesh

  • No moisture inside the pyramids

  • Within a few months scurvy, rickets and vitamin deficiencies

  • Human diversity from 8 people

  • Christian disagreement, literal vs moral story, local vs global, how many miracles

  • Flowers, needed for fruit pollination, food for nectar feeders

  • Creatures with shorter than 1-year life span (ants, bees, termites, fruit flies etc) would need entire colonies on the ark

  • A boat with no control in the worlds biggest storm couldn’t turn in the direction of the waves. A sideways wave will roll the ship

  • Special handling and containment for snakes, spiders, an aviary, terrarium, aquarium, mixed environment for amphibians, a butterfly house  

Any thoughts on topics that I may have missed?

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Here's a post I C&P'd from a now defunct website.  Many of the questions are covered in your excellent list.  Many are not.

 

How do you expect to answer questions such as:

#1.) Where did the Flood water come from, and where did it go?

#2.) If there was a vapor canopy, how was the water suspended, and what caused it to fall all at once when it did?

#3.) If there was a vapor canopy a part of the atmosphere, how would it not raise the atmospheric pressure accordingly, raising oxygen and nitrogen levels to toxic levels?

#4.) If the water canopy began as ice in orbit, how would the gravitational potential energy not raise the temperature past boiling?

#5.) How would a vapor canopy refrain from blocking enough sunlight to reduce the the earth's temperature greatly?

#6.) How would a vapor canopy remain intact above the ozone layer as UV radiation would invariably break apart water molecules?

#7.) If there was a hydroplate (Flood waters coming from a layer of water underground, released by a catastrophic rupture of the earth's crust, shot above the atmosphere, and fell as rain.) how was the water contained?

#8.) If there was a hydroplate, how was the water not superheated?

#9.) If there was a hydroplate, where is the evidence? Fissures? Deposits?

#10.) If the global flood water came from an ice comet, how was it not superheated as it entered the atmosphere?

#11.) How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood?

#12.) Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series?

#13.) How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up, how are they still intact?

#14.) Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction, and (n) other characters. Why do none of these show up?

#15.) Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating?

#16.) Why are geological eras consistent worldwide? How do you explain worldwide agreement between "apparent" geological eras and several different (independent) radiometric and nonradiometric dating methods?

#17.) How was the fossil record sorted in an order convenient for evolution? Why didn't at least one dinosaur make it to the high ground with the elephants?

#18.) Why are organisms (such as brachiopods) which are very similar hydrodynamically (all nearly the same size, shape, and weight) still perfectly sorted?

#19.) How are coral reefs hundreds of feet thick and miles long were preserved intact with other fossils below them?

#20.) How did sensitive marine life such as coral survive?

#21.) Why do small organisms dominate the lower strata, whereas fluid mechanics says they would sink slower and thus end up in upper strata?

#22.) Why are there no human artifacts found except in the very uppermost strata? If, at the time of the Flood, the earth was overpopulated by people with technology for shipbuilding, why were none of their tools or buildings mixed with trilobite or dinosaur fossils?

#23.) Why is ecological information consistent within but not between layers? Fossil pollen is one of the more important indicators of different levels of strata. Each plant has different and distinct pollen, and, by telling which plants produced the fossil pollen, it is easy to see what the climate was like in different strata. Was the pollen hydraulically sorted by the flood water so that the climatic evidence is different for each layer?

#24.) Deep in the geologic column there are formations which could have originated only on the surface, such as: rain drops, river channels, wind-blown dunes, beaches, glacial deposits, burrows, in-place trees, soil, desiccation cracks, footprints, meteorites, meteor craters, coral reefs, and cave systems. How do surface features appear far from the surface? How could these have appeared in the midst of a catastrophic flood? 

#25.) How does a global flood explain angular unconformities? 

#26.) How were mountains and valleys formed?

#27.) When did granite batholiths form?

#28.) How can a single flood be responsible for such extensively detailed layering?

#29.) How do you explain the formation of varves?

#30.) Where did all of the heat go? The geologic record includes roughly 8 x 10^24 grams of lava flows and igneous intrusions. Assuming (conservatively) a specific heat of 0.15, this magma would release 5.4 x 10^27 joules while cooling 1100 degrees C. In addition, the heat of crystallization as the magma solidifies would release a great deal more heat. There are roughly 5 x 10^23 grams of limestone in the earth's sediments, and the formation of calcite releases about 11,290 joules/gram. If only 10% of the limestone were formed during the Flood, the 5.6 x 10^26 joules of heat released would be enough to boil the flood waters. Erosion and crustal movements have erased an unknown number of impact craters on earth, but Creationists Whitcomb and DeYoung suggest that cratering to the extent seen on the Moon and Mercury occurred on earth during the year of Noah's Flood. The heat from just one of the largest lunar impacts released an estimated 3 x 10^26 joules; the same sized object falling to earth would release even more energy. 5.6 x 10^26 joules is enough to heat the oceans to boiling. 3.7 x 10^27 joules will vaporize them completely. Since steam and air have a lower heat capacity than water, the steam released will quickly raise the temperature of the atmosphere over 1000 C. At these temperatures, much of the atmosphere would boil off the Earth. So where did all of the heat go?

#31.) How were limestone deposits formed?

#32.) How could a flood have deposited chalk?

#33.) How could the Flood deposit layers of solid salt?

#34.) How were sedimentary deposits recrystallized and plastically deformed in the short time since the Flood?

#35.) How were hematite layers laid down?

#36.) How do you explain fossil mineralization?

#37.) How did all the modern plant species survive?

#38.) How did all the fish survive?

#39.) How did diseases survive?

#40.) How did short-lived species survive? Adult mayflies on the ark would have died in a few days, and the larvae of many mayflies require shallow fresh running water. Many other insects would face similar problems.

#41.) How could more than a handful of species survive in a devastated habitat? The Flood would have destroyed the food and shelter which most species need to survive.

#42.) How did predators survive?

#43.) How could more than a handful of species survive random influences that affect populations?

#44.) What kinds were aboard the ark?

#45.) Were dinosaurs and other extinct animals on the ark?

#46.) Were the animals aboard the ark mature?

#47.) How many clean animals were on the ark?

#48.) An ark of the size specified in the Bible would not be large enough to carry a cargo of animals and food sufficient to repopulate the earth, especially if animals that are now extinct were required to be aboard. So, could they all fit?

#49.) Many animals, especially insects, require special diets. Koalas, for example, require eucalyptus leaves, and silkworms eat nothing but mulberry leaves. For thousands of plant species (perhaps even most plants), there is at least one animal that eats only that one kind of plant. How did Noah gather all those plants aboard, and where did he put them?

#50.) Other animals are strict carnivores, and some of those specialize on certain kinds of foods, such as small mammals, insects, fish, or aquatic invertebrates. How did Noah determine and provide for all those special diets?

#51.) Many animals require their food to be fresh. Many snakes, for example, will eat only live foods (or at least warm and moving). Parasitoid wasps only attack living prey. Most spiders locate their prey by the vibrations it produces. Most herbivorous insects require fresh food. Aphids, in fact, are physically incapable of sucking from wilted leaves. How did Noah keep all these food supplies fresh?

#52.) How did Noah keep pests from consuming most of the food?

#53.) The ark would need to be well ventilated to disperse the heat, humidity, and waste products (including methane, carbon dioxide, and ammonia) from the many thousands of animals which were crowded aboard. How was fresh air circulated throughout the structure?

#54.) The ungulates alone would have produced tons of manure a day. The waste on the lowest deck at least (and possibly the middle deck) could not simply be pushed overboard, since the deck was below the water line; the waste would have to be carried up a deck or two. Vermicomposting could reduce the rate of waste accumulation, but it requires maintenance of its own. How did such a small crew dispose of so much waste?

#55.) The animals aboard the ark would have been in very poor shape unless they got regular exercise. (Imagine if you had to stay in an area the size of a closet for a year.) How were several thousand diverse kinds of animals exercised regularly?

#56.) How did a crew of eight manage a menagerie larger and more diverse than that found in zoos requiring many times that many employees?

#57.) Wood is not the best material for shipbuilding. It is not enough that a ship be built to hold together; it must also be sturdy enough that the changing stresses don't open gaps in its hull. Wood is simply not strong enough to prevent separation between the joints, especially in the heavy seas that the Ark would have encountered. The longest wooden ships in modern seas are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped. The ark was 450 feet long [ Gen. 6:15]. How could an ark that size be made seaworthy?

#58.) If the animals traveled from other parts of the world, many of them would have faced extreme difficulties. Sloths and penguins, can't travel overland very well at all, koalas and many insects, require a special diet, how did they bring it along? Some cave-dwelling arthropods can't survive in less than 100% relative humidity. Some, like dodos, must have lived on islands. If they didn't, they would have been easy prey for other animals. So how did the animals get to the ark from elsewhere?

#59.) Some creationists suggest that the animals need not have traveled far to reach the Ark; a moderate climate could have made it possible for all of them to live nearby all along. However, this proposal makes matters even worse. The last point above would have applied not only to island species, but to almost all species. Competition between species would have driven most of them to extinction. So, how could animals have all lived near Noah?

#60.) How was the Ark loaded? Getting all the animals aboard the Ark presents logistical problems which, while not impossible, are highly impractical. Noah had only seven days to load the Ark (Gen. 7:4-10). If only 15764 animals were aboard, one animal must have been loaded every 38 seconds, without letup. Since there were likely more animals to load, the time pressures would have been even worse. How was this achieved?

#61.) How did animals get to their present ranges? How did koalas get from Ararat to Australia, polar bears to the Arctic, etc., when the kinds of environment they require to live doesn't exist between the two points. How did so many unique species get to remote islands?

#62.) How were ecological inter-dependencies preserved as animals migrated from Ararat?

#63.) Why is there no mention of the Flood in the records of Egyptian or Mesopotamian civilizations which existed at the time?

#64.) How did the human population rebound so fast?
 

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And the above 100 questions all have the same answer:

 

"Well God used his miracle powers, hallelujah!  Praise Jesus!"

 

If you want to hit the Christians where they live draw a diagram of Noah's family tree.  Then point out that all of Noah's grandsons had to marry Noah's granddaughters.  Bonus points if you are at a family reunion and you can start pointing out grandsons and granddaughters with "That would be like this guy marrying her, or that guy marring her and so on".

 

Remember God is totally cool with incest as long as it is done through holy matrimony.

 

 

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I love this excellent list, but all your points are valuable only to rational thinkers. For believers, the "God-Magick" takes care of any logical inconsistencies within the flood story.  "God did it! God did it!"  Ya know, that kind of stuff....

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There are a lot of good points in this thread.

 

21 hours ago, Wertbag said:
  • With only 2 of every animal released from the ark, the first carnivore to eat will wipe out an entire species

  • With limited population was Noah able to give a burnt sacrifice without wiping out species?

 

Christians would point out that the story has 7 of each clean animal entering the ark, so the clean animals would have provided the sacrifices and food.

 

Of course, this in turn brings up the problem that the Law hadn't been given yet, so there were no "clean" and "unclean" definitions for Noah to go by. Also, there was nothing preventing "unclean" animals from being devoured or even enough of "clean" animals being eaten to wipe out those species.

 

20 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

#2.) If there was a vapor canopy, how was the water suspended, and what caused it to fall all at once when it did?

#3.) If there was a vapor canopy a part of the atmosphere, how would it not raise the atmospheric pressure accordingly, raising oxygen and nitrogen levels to toxic levels?

#4.) If the water canopy began as ice in orbit, how would the gravitational potential energy not raise the temperature past boiling?

#5.) How would a vapor canopy refrain from blocking enough sunlight to reduce the the earth's temperature greatly?

#6.) How would a vapor canopy remain intact above the ozone layer as UV radiation would invariably break apart water molecules?

 

Speaking of the "water vapor canopy" so-called theory, not only is it pseudo-science garbage, but it is also destroyed by the Bible itself. Creationists who argue for it claim that the "water above" in Genesis 1:7 refers to the canopy and that the canopy was rained down during the flood and ceased to exist at that point. However, Psalm 148:4 comes much later in time and refers to the "waters above" as still in existence, thus obliterating their argument.

 

21 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

#49.) Many animals, especially insects, require special diets. Koalas, for example, require eucalyptus leaves, and silkworms eat nothing but mulberry leaves. For thousands of plant species (perhaps even most plants), there is at least one animal that eats only that one kind of plant. How did Noah gather all those plants aboard, and where did he put them?

 

One minor caveat here. According to a nature program I watched, silkworms can and sometimes do eat other leaves besides mulberry leaves. They only produce silk if they eat mulberry leaves and they typically go for them as long as they're available, but it's not a required dietary restriction.

 

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A little Noah's ark humor:

 

Screenshot_2018-05-18-14-56-41-1.png

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If there was a global flood, why did god erase all evidence of it? Why did he then insert evidence that something different happened? Is he trying to trick us?

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2 hours ago, LostinParis said:

Is he trying to trick us?

 

That's what I was told -- in order to test our faith.  Pretty shitty thing for a "loving god" to do.

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Oh for No God's sake! Any settlement on Earth usually started near a body of fresh water. Typically the water would be a river, or at least a large creek. Occasionally it might be  a lake, but running water would have been preferred for a number of reasons. Any body of water is subject to flooding from time to time, and any settlement alongside it will sustain more or less damage whenever there is a flood. Humans being what they are, they will record stories of these floods, and, just as with "fishing stories," certain things will be exaggerated. This we see for ourselves in that there are "Flood Tales," to be found in the ancient literature of every country in the world. Christians like to cite these tales as proof of their Biblical Flood, but no two such tales are exactly alike. Even if there were two or more exactly alike, it would prove no more than that two or more stories originated in the same area. I live in an area which has been flooded many times, and I'm not sure I believe all the tales I've heard about these floods!

Here's a question for Admiral Noah. I presume he had two Koalas on board the Ark. If he did, whence came the Eucalyptus leaves on which they feed? They are very fussy eaters, I might tell you, and will only feed on certain varieties of Eucalyptus leaves. What's more, how did these mammals (they are not bears) manage to get themselves from Australia to the ancient Middle East, or wherever it was? God must have given them their marching orders and sent 'em forth in good time with large backpacks stuffed with their feed on their backs. As the OP points out, absurdity piles upon absurdity. And by the way, I presume there had to have been pairs of Australian Elapids (dangerous snakes) aboard too. I guess no problem, Gawd supplied Admiral Noah with large stocks of antivenins and taught him how to use them. Seeing as Australia has the twenty most deadly land snakes in the world, I sure hope so!

Casey

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56 minutes ago, Casey said:

Christians like to cite these tales as proof of their Biblical Flood, but no two such tales are exactly alike. 

 

Excellent post.  Great points all around.  Technically you are right about no two flood stories being exactly alike but there are two that are so much alike that one must have been plagiarized from the other.  The older one is part of the Epic of Gilgamesh, a Sumerian myth first written around 2100 BCE.  The man named Utnapishtim (and his family and servants) survived the great flood sent by a god.  One of the other gods told him to build a boat.  The kind god told Utnapishtim how big the boat should be and to seal it with pitch.  Utnapishtim saved all his farm animals by putting them on the boat.  The rest of humanity was killed by the flood.  The flood lasted several days and afterwards the boat ended up on a mountain.  Utnapishtim released some birds and one of them didn't come back so he Utnapishtim knew it would finally be safe to leave the boat.  Most importantly, this story was a Babylonian classic so anybody who was educated in Babylon would have read it.  It has remarkable similarities to a story from that group of people who were stuck in Babylon around the time they started writing their Torah.  Some of the minor details were changed and the story was altered so there is just one god.  Personally I think it makes more sense to have the god who tried to kill all humans and the god who tried to save some people be separate gods.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

 

But if you google for the Gilgamesh flood myth you will probably find better sources.

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