Trying to understand

[TheRedneckProfessor]

12 minutes ago, end3 said:

The point would be that we remember the spirit of someone and sometimes choose the higher path in their name/ memory.....which is a reality.

 

Regarding whether Jesus was who He said He was......that's a whole discussion in itself. 

People don't claim to have a personal relationship with Santa; nor do they insist that others should also have a personal relationship with Santa.  They also don't try to pass laws against gay people based on Santa's teachings.  You're trying to make orange juice out of apples.

[ag_NO_stic]

On 6/10/2018 at 1:52 AM, end3 said:

I believe endeavoring in relationships is a good thing R.  When we know others, we are more likely to understand their motivations and have more forgiveness and grace for them.  We KNOW our best friends, we KNOW our spouses.....and likely have more tolerance for them because of our knowledge of their past.  Christ knew God and our job is for us to know Christ on that same level, and then know others that they may know Christ and God.  And if we are all God breathed, then hurting others is ultimately hurting God. 

 

I do have a relationship with some here through trust.  Some of the older group.....we've beat on each other enough where we know past pains....or at least they know mine and are more tolerant of my crap.  And I think that is the crux of Christianity.  Whether or not you have to accept Christ in the end is not my call.  Some Christians suck at Christianity and some non-Christians really do the works part very well....much better than I.

 

Except all this shit doesn't HAPPEN! I used to pray, cry even, nothing. Begged for a relationship, the guy didn't even have the decency to use a billboard on the highway. He doesn't email, text, talk on the phone or in person. I don't get dreams or visions....I can't even call upon Satan to sell my soul to him, he doesn't show up either! Summoning spirits appears to be bullshit, I can cast out a turd and have more concrete evidence that it exists than these illusive-ass demons...

[Guest end3]

36 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

People don't claim to have a personal relationship with Santa; nor do they insist that others should also have a personal relationship with Santa.  They also don't try to pass laws against gay people based on Santa's teachings.  You're trying to make orange juice out of apples.

As I understand it, we are attempting to know the teachings of Jesus and having a relationship through the Holy Spirit.  Please correct me if this is not the generic take on the religion.

 

And yes, we pass laws all the time based on religious views of morality.

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

Except all this shit doesn't HAPPEN! I used to pray, cry even, nothing. Begged for a relationship, the guy didn't even have the decency to use a billboard on the highway. He doesn't email, text, talk on the phone or in person. I don't get dreams or visions....I can't even call upon Satan to sell my soul to him, he doesn't show up either! Summoning spirits appears to be bullshit, I can cast out a turd and have more concrete evidence that it exists than these illusive-ass demons...

Maybe you didn't need to be saved....maybe you are just good all on your own...  Some of us bastards need a good bit of help.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

48 minutes ago, end3 said:

As I understand it, we are attempting to know the teachings of Jesus and having a relationship through the Holy Spirit.  Please correct me if this is not the generic take on the religion.

 

And yes, we pass laws all the time based on religious views of morality.

Yes.  This is religion; not a relationship.

[Guest end3]

8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Yes.  This is religion; not a relationship.

You missed my point please.  We have knowledge of Christ the person, we have a relationship with the Holy Spirit....which I believe is the Spiritual Christ, not the body. 

 

So hears the deal.  I can remember and choose to act in certain ways because of my memories of my past relatives or friends.  The question is, is it necessary that we know that person in order to commune with their "spirit/memory"? 

 

And what is this "spirit".  Is it electrical patterns in our brains that remind us of a positive outcome in the face of a decision......such that we choose that stored pattern rather than evaluating the current questions before us.

 

So now we have a book that gives us the physical and commune with a Spirit that gives us discernment. 

 

Thoughts.

 

 

[ag_NO_stic]

51 minutes ago, end3 said:

Maybe you didn't need to be saved....maybe you are just good all on your own...  Some of us bastards need a good bit of help.

 

Well then.....what else is this bullshit religion for?!? Lol I assume you were being cheeky, but you are kind of making my point for me! If we don't need to be saved, then......?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

20 minutes ago, end3 said:

You missed my point please.  We have knowledge of Christ the person, we have a relationship with the Holy Spirit....which I believe is the Spiritual Christ, not the body. 

 

So hears the deal.  I can remember and choose to act in certain ways because of my memories of my past relatives or friends.  The question is, is it necessary that we know that person in order to commune with their "spirit/memory"? 

 

And what is this "spirit".  Is it electrical patterns in our brains that remind us of a positive outcome in the face of a decision......such that we choose that stored pattern rather than evaluating the current questions before us.

 

So now we have a book that gives us the physical and commune with a Spirit that gives us discernment. 

 

Thoughts.

 

 

We don't have knowledge of Christ the person, though.  We have, at best, third-hand information written hundreds of years after the fact.  Nor do we have a "relationship" with the holy spirit, given that there is no compelling reason to conclude it exists.

 

We have historical, first-hand evidence for the existence of St. Nicholas.  We also have a credible timeline of the evolution of Santa Claus.  In other words, we can see how the person of St. Nicholas became the myth of Santa Claus.  We have no such connection between the supposed "historical" Jesus and the myth presented in the gospels.  In this regard, it is more logical and rational to believe in Santa than in Jesus. 

 

Nonetheless, belief is not the same as a relationship.  Even if I'm convinced that St. Nicholas rose from the dead to become Santa Claus, I still don't have a relationship with either of them.

[Realist]

2 hours ago, end3 said:

You missed my point please.  We have knowledge of Christ the person, we have a relationship with the Holy Spirit....which I believe is the Spiritual Christ, not the body. 

 

So hears the deal.  I can remember and choose to act in certain ways because of my memories of my past relatives or friends.  The question is, is it necessary that we know that person in order to commune with their "spirit/memory"? 

 

And what is this "spirit".  Is it electrical patterns in our brains that remind us of a positive outcome in the face of a decision......such that we choose that stored pattern rather than evaluating the current questions before us.

 

So now we have a book that gives us the physical and commune with a Spirit that gives us discernment. 

 

Thoughts.

 

 

End,

Not trying to be picky but do your statements above hold true?

 

The "Professor" has answered your first statement as copied below:

"We don't have knowledge of Christ the person, though.  We have, at best, third-hand information written hundreds of years after the fact.  Nor do we have a "relationship" with the holy spirit, given that there is no compelling reason to conclude it exists."

 

Your "spirit/memory" statement very quickly drops the "memory" equation in your paragraphs above which in reality it is. Why do people who develop Alzheimer's or Dementia often forget people who may even be close to them? I know that from personal experience!  Because memory is a brain function purely .. spirit has nothing to do with it!

Once you are dead, all those memories WILL be gone too!

 

As to not knowing a person and having as you say a "spirit/memory" relationship? Once again, it is purely something generated in ones own brain. ALL religions generate these same relationships. It is not just special to christianity!

 

By the way End, why do OP's regularly leave you to stand and fight statements they start? I respect you for that! The OP has made himself quite scarce on this posting even though he has been logged on the site very recently! Maybe he is starting to see his relationship IS just a religion after all?

 

 

 

[mymistake]

3 hours ago, end3 said:

You missed my point please.  We have knowledge of Christ the person, we have a relationship with the Holy Spirit....which I believe is the Spiritual Christ, not the body. 

 

 

It is dishonest when Christians call interaction with a spirit "not religion".  Calling it a relationship is also dishonest unless you have objective evidence that said spirit is real.

 

 

3 hours ago, end3 said:

 So hears the deal.  I can remember and choose to act in certain ways because of my memories of my past relatives or friends.  The question is, is it necessary that we know that person in order to commune with their "spirit/memory"? 

 

You can't commune with a spirit or memory.  You have your own memories that you can visit any time you wish.  Those memories can be about other people but they were memories you formed in your brain.  Visiting memories is not what commune nor what relationship means.

 

 

3 hours ago, end3 said:

And what is this "spirit".  Is it electrical patterns in our brains that remind us of a positive outcome in the face of a decision......such that we choose that stored pattern rather than evaluating the current questions before us.

 

Same thing as the Midi-Chlorians that make Darth Vader powerful in the Force.

 

 

3 hours ago, end3 said:

 So now we have a book that gives us the physical and commune with a Spirit that gives us discernment. 

 

Just a wild imagination.

 

 

[Guest end3]

5 hours ago, Realist said:

End,

Not trying to be picky but do your statements above hold true?

 

The "Professor" has answered your first statement as copied below:

"We don't have knowledge of Christ the person, though.  We have, at best, third-hand information written hundreds of years after the fact.  Nor do we have a "relationship" with the holy spirit, given that there is no compelling reason to conclude it exists."

 

Your "spirit/memory" statement very quickly drops the "memory" equation in your paragraphs above which in reality it is. Why do people who develop Alzheimer's or Dementia often forget people who may even be close to them? I know that from personal experience!  Because memory is a brain function purely .. spirit has nothing to do with it!

Once you are dead, all those memories WILL be gone too!

 

As to not knowing a person and having as you say a "spirit/memory" relationship? Once again, it is purely something generated in ones own brain. ALL religions generate these same relationships. It is not just special to christianity!

 

By the way End, why do OP's regularly leave you to stand and fight statements they start? I respect you for that! The OP has made himself quite scarce on this posting even though he has been logged on the site very recently! Maybe he is starting to see his relationship IS just a religion after all?

 

 

 

I was thinking out loud...being honest...weighing spirit, soul, whatever. 

 

For me personally, I've had times where I felt my brain could not have made the connections it did...thankfully.  Times where I chose a more graceful stance rather than a natural stance.   Had sermons given to me when I had nothing.

 

The point of the relationship thoughts...and my verdict is still out on this....but if a person is living, it would be a relationship.  We know the Bible doesn't consider Jesus dead.  Again, just weighing how we might have a relationship with Christ/the Holy Spirit. 

 

We have knowledge of people through contact and mutual acquaintances ....the only knowledge we have of Christ is the Bible. 

We have the "spirit" of others because we know/knew and it affects our reality. 

Certainly the question is, is the Holy Spirit alive.

 

You say no, I say yes.  I can see your points though, thanks.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, end3 said:

I was thinking out loud...being honest...weighing spirit, soul, whatever. 

 

For me personally, I've had times where I felt my brain could not have made the connections it did...thankfully.  Times where I chose a more graceful stance rather than a natural stance.   Had sermons given to me when I had nothing.

 

The point of the relationship thoughts...and my verdict is still out on this....but if a person is living, it would be a relationship.  We know the Bible doesn't consider Jesus dead.  Again, just weighing how we might have a relationship with Christ/the Holy Spirit. 

 

We have knowledge of people through contact and mutual acquaintances ....the only knowledge we have of Christ is the Bible. 

We have the "spirit" of others because we know/knew and it affects our reality. 

Certainly the question is, is the Holy Spirit alive.

 

You say no, I say yes.  I can see your points though, thanks.

We have knowledge of the Loch Ness monster through grainy photographs and eyewitness testimony.  Is it possible that we could have a relationship with it?

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

We have knowledge of people through contact and mutual acquaintances ....the only knowledge we have of Christ is the Bible. 

 

You can replace "Christ" and "Bible" with any combination of God and writings. "Allah and Quran" "Zeus and Greek Poems" whatever.

 

How does any of this give even a semblance of relationship? I know I had a great grandfather - I never met him and I certainly don't have a relationship with him, and yet we can absolutely say he was my grandfather and did exist. You can't do anything close to that with JC.

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

We have knowledge of the Loch Ness monster through grainy photographs and eyewitness testimony.  Is it possible that we could have a relationship with it?

 

Yes you can!  The Lock Ness Monster has appointed me as his spokesman and the Lock Ness Monster will be happy to have a relationship with you as long as you are willing to pay me.  Oh plus the Lock Ness Monster has this list of rules he wants you to obey.  Let me just write down the finishing touches on that list and you can start reading it right away.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

13 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

Yes you can!  The Lock Ness Monster has appointed me as his spokesman and the Lock Ness Monster will be happy to have a relationship with you as long as you are willing to pay me.  Oh plus the Lock Ness Monster has this list of rules he wants you to obey.  Let me just write down the finishing touches on that list and you can start reading it right away.

 

[mwc]

15 hours ago, end3 said:

The point would be that we remember the spirit of someone and sometimes choose the higher path in their name/ memory.....which is a reality.

 

Regarding whether Jesus was who He said He was......that's a whole discussion in itself. 

     If that's the point then I can do that with anyone or anything.  My dead grandparents.  My living relatives for that matter.  A particular passage of music.  A sunrise.  A billion and one things I imagine.  Whatever "moves" me.  So ultimately really nothing besides me deciding to be a better person.

 

     Considering the analogy was Santa and jesus it seems like it was apt to mention it.  The discussion on that isn't needed.  I know the answer.  Yep, that's my arrogance speaking.  I do know the answer.  Plain and simple.  If jesus wishes to present a counter argument he should know where I am.  *2000 years of crickets and counting*

 

          mwc

 

[Guest]

You know, we could talk about all kinds of analogies here, but the reality of the situation is that Christians have been taught to revere the Bible, and as long as that Bible remains on that pedestal and that conditioned thought remains, talk about santa and the Loch ness monster will have no effect. I think with some Christians it even has the opposite effect as their logic tells them it's a ridiculous comparison. Unless you're taking to someone who is open to questioning the Bible and the foundation of Christianity, the results are rather predictable. And I think this is why some of us are coming across as arrogant to Christians (not that we have to care about that).

[L.B.]

On 6/11/2018 at 12:54 PM, end3 said:

As I understand it, we are attempting to know the teachings of Jesus and having a relationship through the Holy Spirit.  Please correct me if this is not the generic take on the religion.

 

And yes, we pass laws all the time based on religious views of morality.

 

And those laws, based on religious views of morality, have been nothing but the tools of the White elite oligarchy since day one.

Gentile pagans took over Jewish synagogues and instituted the statue-/god-/goddess-worship of the political and military elite.

 

"Manifest Destiny" was a bullshit religion-driven idea that resulted in the slaughter of millions upon millions of innocent people who wouldn't convert to the religion of the oppressors.

 

Fuck the laws based on your imaginary friend's so-called morality - equally as imaginary as he is/they are.

Your insular little white capitalist world is going to come crumbling down as people increasingly refuse to be bound by your bullshit myths and controlled by your slave-masters.

 

I've watched the TV series "Sons Of Anarchy" - I feel like I know Jackson Teller personally; I can totally relate to the things he's said, things he's even WRITTEN DOWN for others to read.

Does that make Jackson Teller real, or is he just a semi-relatable FICTIONAL CHARACTER, created to advance a storyline and make points about life, society and so on?

 

It's not anyone's fault here that you and millions like you took advantage of the privileges you've enjoyed for centuries as the ruling race and class by aligning yourself with the racist ideologues within the Christard religion.

Just don't expect us to believe that your self-delusion about how "real" your "holy spirit" is makes any actual difference in the real world.

Your religion and its adherents, especially its leaders, are being shown to be increasingly morally bankrupt, corrupt, perverted, racist and greedy by the day.

Your fake god won't be able to save you from the shit-storm that will come when this and future generations of militant anti-religion, anti-oligarch people finally refuse your bullshit once and for all.

[L.B.]

On 6/11/2018 at 2:09 PM, end3 said:

So now we have a book that gives us the physical and commune with a Spirit that gives us discernment. 

 

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

"We have a book"... how deluded you really are.

 

There's ZERO evidence for ANY coherent, systematic progress in the compilation of and promulgation of your "book", which is really just a compendium of mismatched Bronze-Age fables and fictional "New Testament" borrowings from the framework of the OT fables.

 

The coming-together of that "book" is the story of power struggles, theological conflicts, socio-political agendas and outright redaction.

Hell, the translators of the so-called King James bible ADMITTED that they misspelled names of people and places in order to make them sound less Jewish because they were virulently anti-Semitic. Ironic, isn't it, that they needed the Jewish fables to maintain the fragile semi-continuity of their "New Testament", but they were so racist and prejudiced against the Jews that they couldn't bear to make their precious Gentile book sound Jewish.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

You know, we could talk about all kinds of analogies here, but the reality of the situation is that Christians have been taught to revere the Bible, and as long as that Bible remains on that pedestal and that conditioned thought remains, talk about santa and the Loch ness monster will have no effect. I think with some Christians it even has the opposite effect as their logic tells them it's a ridiculous comparison. Unless you're taking to someone who is open to questioning the Bible and the foundation of Christianity, the results are rather predictable. And I think this is why some of us are coming across as arrogant to Christians (not that we have to care about that).

I agree that, on the surface it seems futile to continue bashing christians' heads in with analogies which they will never accept.  But there are always lurkers in this forum who may be at a place of openness and questioning.  We do what we can for them.

[Guest end3]

43 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I agree that, on the surface it seems futile to continue bashing christians' heads in with analogies which they will never accept.  But there are always lurkers in this forum who may be at a place of openness and questioning.  We do what we can for them.

My disdain is that many ex-ers make science their new god.... and are just as arrogant if not more, than the fundie group.

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, L.B. said:

 

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

"We have a book"... how deluded you really are.

 

There's ZERO evidence for ANY coherent, systematic progress in the compilation of and promulgation of your "book", which is really just a compendium of mismatched Bronze-Age fables and fictional "New Testament" borrowings from the framework of the OT fables.

 

The coming-together of that "book" is the story of power struggles, theological conflicts, socio-political agendas and outright redaction.

Hell, the translators of the so-called King James bible ADMITTED that they misspelled names of people and places in order to make them sound less Jewish because they were virulently anti-Semitic. Ironic, isn't it, that they needed the Jewish fables to maintain the fragile semi-continuity of their "New Testament", but they were so racist and prejudiced against the Jews that they couldn't bear to make their precious Gentile book sound Jewish.

I'm sorry LB, I forgot you don't read books and have some innate ability to discern truth. 

[Guest end3]

2 hours ago, L.B. said:

 

And those laws, based on religious views of morality, have been nothing but the tools of the White elite oligarchy since day one.

Gentile pagans took over Jewish synagogues and instituted the statue-/god-/goddess-worship of the political and military elite.

 

"Manifest Destiny" was a bullshit religion-driven idea that resulted in the slaughter of millions upon millions of innocent people who wouldn't convert to the religion of the oppressors.

 

Fuck the laws based on your imaginary friend's so-called morality - equally as imaginary as he is/they are.

Your insular little white capitalist world is going to come crumbling down as people increasingly refuse to be bound by your bullshit myths and controlled by your slave-masters.

 

I've watched the TV series "Sons Of Anarchy" - I feel like I know Jackson Teller personally; I can totally relate to the things he's said, things he's even WRITTEN DOWN for others to read.

Does that make Jackson Teller real, or is he just a semi-relatable FICTIONAL CHARACTER, created to advance a storyline and make points about life, society and so on?

 

It's not anyone's fault here that you and millions like you took advantage of the privileges you've enjoyed for centuries as the ruling race and class by aligning yourself with the racist ideologues within the Christard religion.

Just don't expect us to believe that your self-delusion about how "real" your "holy spirit" is makes any actual difference in the real world.

Your religion and its adherents, especially its leaders, are being shown to be increasingly morally bankrupt, corrupt, perverted, racist and greedy by the day.

Your fake god won't be able to save you from the shit-storm that will come when this and future generations of militant anti-religion, anti-oligarch people finally refuse your bullshit once and for all.

Hate much?  Betting you live in your parents basement LB.  Get a job antifa-boy.

 

[mymistake]

8 minutes ago, end3 said:

My disdain is that many ex-ers make science their new god.... 

 

No.  Just no.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

My disdain is that many ex-ers make science their new god.... and are just as arrogant if not more, than the fundie group.

What on earth is wrong with valuing science, do tell. Science hypothesizes about the surrounding world and gives us fascinating insights...much more than the bible ever will. I think you have to realize that people who put a high premium on logic and reason are going to value science. I think you are coming from this stance: Christianity vs science, and it doesn't have to be that way.