Guest Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, end3 said: My disdain is that many ex-ers make science their new god.... and are just as arrogant if not more, than the fundie group. You are coming at this from the "I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me" perspective. So of course, you see those who value science as arrogant, in particular if they are atheists who don't believe in gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 12, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, end3 said: My disdain is that many ex-ers make science their new god.... and are just as arrogant if not more, than the fundie group. What difference does it make in your life who worships whom or what? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted June 12, 2018 Moderator Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, end3 said: My disdain is that many ex-ers make science their new god.... and are just as arrogant if not more, than the fundie group. If by "make science their new God" you mean that once they looked to God for answers about reality, but now the lights have come on they look to the best method we currently have (Despite its laws) of discerning reality then yes science becomes the new "god." If by new god you mean treat science as Christians do Jesus - no. The number like that are so few that its dishonest to suggest many ex-c's are like that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 16 hours ago, end3 said: My disdain is that many ex-ers make science their new god.... and are just as arrogant if not more, than the fundie group. I can certainly remember feeling that way as a christian, I remember thinking that there was a whole lot of certainty there for people who didn't know a whole lot more than me. I still feel that way now, only those that have all the certainty happen to be christians. Now that I am comfortably out of that religion, I'd suggest approaching some of us with compassion rather than disdain. I know it's the Lion's Den, feel free to try and rip us a new asshole.....but I'm just saying. I know, I know. I'm just an immoral pagan. Nothing resembling christ-like behavior that would reflect well on your religion should be coming from me! When your earth is shattered, when you don't know what to believe anymore, and your god has decided to ignore you. What could be wrong with studying his creation, right?! It should reflect well on him, prove his existence when you're drowning in doubt and insecurities!! After all, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist!! Oh wait....what do you mean the earthy looks a helluva lot like there isn't a god.....shit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 9 minutes ago, Ann said: That' just silly..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: What difference does it make in your life who worships whom or what? It doesn't really. Again, what I don't care for is the arrogance.....which is part of both groups. I don't like it in Christian teachers, I don't like it in academic settings either. In my mind, neither group has the complete truth, yet both yammer on like they do. I would be happy with science advocates expressing they had transient certainty and that they did the best they could for humanity. Same goes for religion...that it would help people in a positive manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 13, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2018 20 minutes ago, end3 said: It doesn't really. Again, what I don't care for is the arrogance.....which is part of both groups. I don't like it in Christian teachers, I don't like it in academic settings either. In my mind, neither group has the complete truth, yet both yammer on like they do. I would be happy with science advocates expressing they had transient certainty and that they did the best they could for humanity. Same goes for religion...that it would help people in a positive manner. Don't you think it's just a bit arrogant for someone to come on here making unfounded claims, such as a book giving us knowledge about Jesus and the holy spirit giving us a relationship? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said: I can certainly remember feeling that way as a christian, I remember thinking that there was a whole lot of certainty there for people who didn't know a whole lot more than me. I still feel that way now, only those that have all the certainty happen to be christians. Now that I am comfortably out of that religion, I'd suggest approaching some of us with compassion rather than disdain. I know it's the Lion's Den, feel free to try and rip us a new asshole.....but I'm just saying. I know, I know. I'm just a immoral pagan. Nothing resembling christ-like behavior that would reflect well on your religion should be coming from me! When your earth is shattered, when you don't know what to believe anymore, and your god has decided to ignore you. What could be wrong with studying his creation, right?! It should reflect well on him, prove his existence when you're drowning in doubt and insecurities!! After all, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist!! Oh wait....what do you mean the earthy looks a helluva lot like there isn't a god.....shit. Christianity hasn't always been meaningful to me. Matter of fact, it wasn't much a part of my life until around 30. Used to be wonderfully disgusted with evangelical bs.....mainly the TV evangelists. Once it was though, it's been somewhat of a rock I can turn to regardless. I've been a fundie, I used to do children's sermons, a deacon, etc. I can't really imagine God not talking with me in those times or even now. I have no answer other than I'm sorry, I'm sure there was a lot of pain. I guess on some level I feel the need to defend people from the bully. And I see intellectualism as a bully if used in that sense. And that's the crux of my motivation.....don't be a dick. Science is great, religion can be great, but don't be a dick. I also guess it's unrealistic to imagine people progressing quickly from a state of hurt to a more mature state. But please keep in mind, the opposite is true....that non-religion can hurt and religion can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Don't you think it's just a bit arrogant for someone to come on here making unfounded claims, such as a book giving us knowledge about Jesus and the holy spirit giving us a relationship? Just as arrogant as someone thinking they know everything because they have some errant research they based their truth on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 41 minutes ago, end3 said: Just as arrogant as someone thinking they know everything because they have some errant research they based their truth on.... Most folks I know who prefer rational and logical based analysis of reality do not pretend to "know everything" or claim scientific theories, predictions or laws are "truth". I predict you are injecting personal and convenient hyperbole into the discussion in an attempt to double down on previous claims you have made in this thread. Note how the prior sentence is not a truth claim, just a probability result, i.e., to me, based on what I have read, it is more probable than not that the first sentence in this paragraph is correct. Here's an example of how rational thinking works, using the biological theory of evolution: The Biological Theory of Evolution is the best explanation of all relevant empirical evidence. Like any proper scientific theory, it is subject to falsification, in whole or in part, based on the introduction of new relevant empirical evidence and the accompanying analysis of that new evidence along with the prior evidence. Utilizing Bayesian Probability Theory, the likelihood that the explanations and predictions the Biological Theory of Evolution can change. That being said, many folks will claim gnostic truth for scientific conclusions, regardless of what such claim is based upon. They, in turn, are being hyperbolic. On another topic, you seem to have been relying significantly on false equivalence in your recent posts. I suggest you study that fallacy and learn how to avoid using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 13, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2018 37 minutes ago, end3 said: Just as arrogant as someone thinking they know everything because they have some errant research they based their truth on.... I was hoping you had reached the point in your journey wherein you would be capable of introspection and self-honesty. Isn't the basis of relationship to first be aware of who we are ourselves? How long will you continue looking to cast blame at others instead of seeking intimacy within yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I was hoping you had reached the point in your journey wherein you would be capable of introspection and self-honesty. Isn't the basis of relationship to first be aware of who we are ourselves? How long will you continue looking to cast blame at others instead of seeking intimacy within yourself? I know the reason I am triggered...thank you. I am being honest. Beating up on people is not right regardless of my motivations to respond. My question would be why? Why is there a Lion's Den? Why not civil discourse....like the coliseum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 26 minutes ago, sdelsolray said: Most folks I know who prefer rational and logical based analysis of reality do not pretend to "know everything" or claim scientific theories, predictions or laws are "truth". I predict you are injecting personal and convenient hyperbole into the discussion in an attempt to double down on previous claims you have made in this thread. Note how the prior sentence is not a truth claim, just a probability result, i.e., to me, based on what I have read, it is more probable than not that the first sentence in this paragraph is correct. Here's an example of how rational thinking works, using the biological theory of evolution: The Biological Theory of Evolution is the best explanation of all relevant empirical evidence. Like any proper scientific theory, it is subject to falsification, in whole or in part, based on the introduction of new relevant empirical evidence. That being said, many folks will claim gnostic truth for scientific conclusions, regardless of what such claim is based upon. They, in turn, are being hyperbolic themselves. On another topic, you seem to have been relying significantly on false equivalence in your recent posts. I suggest you study that fallacy and learn how to avoid using it. It's entirely possible that there are people equally hurt by some asshole PhD and turn to religion as there are people hurt by religion and turn to science. It's a joke S for these teachers to teach with arrogance much like it is for Christians to teach with arrogance. I'm just an advocate for the Christian reality......reality up in the air for explanation as well. You're right, I don't know the number of assholes compared to humble teachers. I can say I'm certain there are more assholes in the Lion's Den... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 13, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2018 26 minutes ago, end3 said: I know the reason I am triggered...thank you. I am being honest. Beating up on people is not right regardless of my motivations to respond. My question would be why? Why is there a Lion's Den? Why not civil discourse....like the coliseum? How often have you and I had civil discourse in this forum? I can think of a few. But, if you're being honest, you know you don't come to The Den for civil discourse. So, why are you here? Be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 41 minutes ago, end3 said: I know the reason I am triggered...thank you. I am being honest. Beating up on people is not right regardless of my motivations to respond. My question would be why? Why is there a Lion's Den? Why not civil discourse....like the coliseum? You can stick to the Coliseum if you like, surely. There is a warning for the Lion's Den that it can become heated in here and that only those with a thick skin should stray into this area. Christians coming here should be prepared to have their arguments picked apart and questioned, and their claims countered...this is an ex-christian website. As for civil discourse, this is a whole hell of a lot more civil than some other areas on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted June 13, 2018 Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2018 36 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said: As for civil discourse, this is a whole hell of a lot more civil than some other areas on this site. The word of truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: How often have you and I had civil discourse in this forum? I can think of a few. But, if you're being honest, you know you don't come to The Den for civil discourse. So, why are you here? Be honest. I've already stated I am aware of what triggers me to have less than civil conversations. I don't care to share this information if you don't mind. In other words, I know why it raises my blood pressure and why I respond. The reason for being here is defending people from being intellectually bullied .....I don't see it as a good method to foster understanding. Again, my question is, why do it? Have had several conversations where different members are in disagreement from a scientific basis, yet each felt compelled to tell the Christian how they didn't have a clue......while simultaneously saying THEY had a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 55 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: The word of truth. Neither of you have been here long enough to know this is not an accurate statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted June 13, 2018 Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2018 54 minutes ago, end3 said: Neither of you have been here long enough to know this is not an accurate statement. Have you looked in the ToT over the last year? Sure we might eviscerate the Christians who come through here proclaiming to know all and quickly find out they don't - but its nowhere near the level of internal throat slitting that goes on in the ToT. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 13, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2018 51 minutes ago, end3 said: I've already stated I am aware of what triggers me to have less than civil conversations. I don't care to share this information if you don't mind. In other words, I know why it raises my blood pressure and why I respond. The reason for being here is defending people from being intellectually bullied .....I don't see it as a good method to foster understanding. Again, my question is, why do it? Have had several conversations where different members are in disagreement from a scientific basis, yet each felt compelled to tell the Christian how they didn't have a clue......while simultaneously saying THEY had a clue. If it bothers you so much, why not take a break for a little while. god's big enough to hold down the fort while you catch some rest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.B. Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 9 hours ago, end3 said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.B. Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 7 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: If it bothers you so much, why not take a break for a little while. god's big enough to hold down the fort while you catch some rest. Probably a good thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 13, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2018 6 hours ago, L.B. said: 8 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 12 hours ago, end3 said: Christianity hasn't always been meaningful to me. Matter of fact, it wasn't much a part of my life until around 30. Used to be wonderfully disgusted with evangelical bs.....mainly the TV evangelists. Once it was though, it's been somewhat of a rock I can turn to regardless. I've been a fundie, I used to do children's sermons, a deacon, etc. I can't really imagine God not talking with me in those times or even now. I have no answer other than I'm sorry, I'm sure there was a lot of pain. I guess on some level I feel the need to defend people from the bully. And I see intellectualism as a bully if used in that sense. And that's the crux of my motivation.....don't be a dick. Science is great, religion can be great, but don't be a dick. I also guess it's unrealistic to imagine people progressing quickly from a state of hurt to a more mature state. But please keep in mind, the opposite is true....that non-religion can hurt and religion can help. Thanks for your kind words. I had to resist the urge to say something sarcastic like "Aren't you special, that god talks to you," but....there's just really no need to say stuff like that. I have no real wish, ultimately, to take god away from you. If god is meaningful to you, who am I to try to force an answer or change your mind. I don't understand how you're able to live with what the god of the bible's behavior, particularly when the bible is in many ways unreliable....but to each their own. I can even see why you might view some ill-prepared christian as "being bullied" when they aren't ready for us. I really do get it. I don't know that I agree with you, since he did have the opportunity to look through how we talk to people in the lion's den and then subsequently made a username and kind of forced an encounter with us. I'm less inclined to view it as bullying when he puts himself here under no coercion by us or god. You and I can agree on not being dicks, thus saith @disillusioned. One of his great commandments 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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