Knott Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 20 hours ago, Storm said: Christianity is essentially a prepackaged worldview. Its seems plausible to the average person because it attempts to explain things that people don't want to spend copious amounts of time trying to figure out. Our brains like to be as efficient as possible and tries to limit the amount of energy spent trying to figure out things. Because Christianity (and other religions) have spent the time and energy "working" through these issues, it makes sense that humans would be prone to accept what Christianity (or other religions) offer. Thanks for sharing so many good thoughts. Many in here may already know about what you are saying, some fresh stuff for me. I have always been interested in psychology and what really makes the human tick. That was a biggie for me when I began to study Paul. He said a lot of things to different people such as the Jew, the gentile. But Paul's main theme is he tells us what completes a human being. And as a completed human being if there is no knowledge of that completion your no different than you were (your worse off). Seems Christianity in general has proven that to be fact, as well as other religions. I don't know what it is like in other religions, I just know Christianity so I feel I can have a say. Paul brings the knowledge of how it happened (had nothing to do with the human), when it happened (had nothing to do with the human), how it is expressed (by the uniqueness of your creation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 21 hours ago, Storm said: Religion eliminates the need for that. But some people are not content with the "answers" that religion provides (in this case Christianity). Indoctrination is a common theme among the many people who frequent this site. Its a powerful tool for developing Christians and is likely the primary reason most people become Christians. When you are young and looking for answers, Christianity provides answers, but they aren't necessarily the "correct" ones. But as a child, you don't generally know any better, and you trust that the people who are helping you and have no reason to doubt what they are telling you. So you grow up simply accepting what you were taught as a child, only to find out later that it wasn't true or wasn't quite as true as you thought it was. This is a problem. As evil as it seems (finger quotes), especially for children, don't you believe there has be be some rhyme and reason it happens everyday everywhere? Like war another evil, I have not been able to caulk everything up as just being evil, surely something has to be coming out of it. I don't know maybe compassion or some other feeling, something. I can't believe we live with the possibility of it happening at any minute and there is nothing to it. Not just evil but good as well or maybe all things we know and try to understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 33 minutes ago, Knott said: As evil as it seems (finger quotes), especially for children, don't you believe there has be be some rhyme and reason it happens everyday everywhere? Like war another evil, I have not been able to caulk everything up as just being evil, surely something has to be coming out of it. I don't know maybe compassion or some other feeling, something. I can't believe we live with the possibility of it happening at any minute and there is nothing to it. Not just evil but good as well or maybe all things we know and try to understand People believe in that stuff because it's really difficult for human beings to accept their mortality. Its more convenient to think you'll keep living forever. And they pass it on to their children because they believe it. That's all there is to it. Just because religion exists doesn't mean there's any truth to it. I think you said earlier yourself the human mind can do funny stuff. It can believe really funny stuff when indoctrinated as a young child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 48 minutes ago, Knott said: As evil as it seems (finger quotes), especially for children, don't you believe there has be be some rhyme and reason it happens everyday everywhere? Like war another evil, I have not been able to caulk everything up as just being evil, surely something has to be coming out of it. I don't know maybe compassion or some other feeling, something. I can't believe we live with the possibility of it happening at any minute and there is nothing to it. Not just evil but good as well or maybe all things we know and try to understand Nobody is in control. Evil is when people cause others to suffer. Good happens when we prevent suffering and cause people to benefit. So humans can respond to tragedy by choosing to do good but it isn't because somebody in control planed it that way. The real heart breaking misfortune is the human propensity to sabotage ourselves without even realizing it because we can't accurately predict what will happen or bring ourselves to care. That is the true meaning of the word stupid. And humans sabotage themselves all the time. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I am interested to see what you think regarding the rest of my original post, but I would like to address your two responses. 1 hour ago, Knott said: Thanks for sharing so many good thoughts. Many in here may already know about what you are saying, some fresh stuff for me. I have always been interested in psychology and what really makes the human tick. That was a biggie for me when I began to study Paul. He said a lot of things to different people such as the Jew, the gentile. But Paul's main theme is he tells us what completes a human being. And as a completed human being if there is no knowledge of that completion your no different than you were (your worse off). Seems Christianity in general has proven that to be fact, as well as other religions. I don't know what it is like in other religions, I just know Christianity so I feel I can have a say. Paul brings the knowledge of how it happened (had nothing to do with the human), when it happened (had nothing to do with the human), how it is expressed (by the uniqueness of your creation). Your response is indicative of someone who has accepted the Christian Worldview. While that is fine if you want to accept that, but what needs to be pointed out is that this view is often hindered because you don't look at it critically. Many of us here eventually did that and it helped us realize that Christianity's answers weren't sufficient enough to continue to believe them. Take for example your statement "But Paul's main theme is he tells us what completes a human being. And as a completed human being if there is no knowledge of that completion your no different than you were (your worse off)." What does it mean to be a complete human being? You have to remember something here. Paul is simply a human and he is sharing what he believes to be true. You might think that he is sharing something that is divinely inspired, but you have no way of knowing this. In the Christian worldview, humans are broken and we need a God to fix us. But for those outside of the Christian worldview, this "broken" nature doesn't really make sense. While all humans have flaws and we all make mistakes and do things that hurt others and ourselves, I don't think that makes us broken or imperfect. What does a perfect human being act like or do? I don't think its possible for a perfect human being to exist because each person has unique qualities that make them react and respond to situations differently. What one person might consider a benevolent action, another person may see as a hurtful action. In all of the different personalities and traits that we exhibit as humans, I just don't see how there could be a perfect human. So when I read your statement about a completed human, I don't know what that means. Even as a Christian, I struggled with that concept. No matter how compassionate, empathetic, sympathetic, kind, happy, or whatever positive characteristic you want to describe that I can become, I will always be capable of doing damage in some way. This isn't a bad thing, per se, but its simply reality. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I do because it is simply a part of being human. I am all for self improvement and continuing to try and be the best person you can be. I will give Christianity credit in that it does advocate for improving our lives and the lives of others (at least the part of Christianity I was involved with did), even though I think the motivation for much of it is misguided. But, I don't believe that there exists a completed human. 2 hours ago, Knott said: As evil as it seems (finger quotes), especially for children, don't you believe there has be be some rhyme and reason it happens everyday everywhere? Like war another evil, I have not been able to caulk everything up as just being evil, surely something has to be coming out of it. I don't know maybe compassion or some other feeling, something. I can't believe we live with the possibility of it happening at any minute and there is nothing to it. Not just evil but good as well or maybe all things we know and try to understand As TruthSeeker basically stated in response to your post, religion is also a coping mechanism for life. Its tough to accept that people do intentionally hurtful things to others. As humans, we often want to know the reasons behind their actions. But sometimes those reasons are tough to accept. Its much easier to accept that there is some evil entity behind those evil actions rather than the thought of someone just being purely bad and hurtful. I don't want to admit that I have hurt someone else, because if I do, then I am faced with the reality that I am potentially a "bad" person. I don't want to think that about myself, so I will accept that I was tricked by the devil and I feel better about myself. Thus, I have coped with my failure. But this is not only for evil acts, but for death as well, whether it be our own or the death of someone we love. We all want to believe that we will live forever or that we will once again be reunited with a loved one. There is comfort in that thinking. Of course, once we die and our belief isn't reality, we're dead and we don't know, so there's no problem anymore. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 31, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 31, 2018 5 hours ago, Knott said: Paul brings the knowledge of how it happened (had nothing to do with the human), when it happened (had nothing to do with the human), how it is expressed (by the uniqueness of your creation). The person or persons writing under the name of Paul expressed opinions and did not deliver "knowledge." There is no evidence for an actual "Paul" outside of New Testament writings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Storm said: In the Christian worldview, humans are broken and we need a God to fix us. But for those outside of the Christian worldview, this "broken" nature doesn't really make sense. What is the mind set for worldview, does it not seem to be out of sorts. I don't see anything wrong with an individual trying to lend a hand to humanity, such as Paul. ? Would he be viewed different if he was writing, just not in the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 45 minutes ago, Knott said: What is the mind set for worldview, does it not seem to be out of sorts. I don't see anything wrong with an individual trying to lend a hand to humanity, such as Paul. ? Would he be viewed different if he was writing, just not in the bible. For me, the world just is what it is. There are bad people and good people and all sorts in between. Bad things happen and good things happen and the mundane happens. Sometimes those things just happen by chance and for simply no explainable reason, and other times we know why they happened. I don't personally feel the need to have some sort of explanation as to why these things happen. They just do and I live my life regardless. I have come to believe that the world exists exactly as it would if there is no God. As far as Paul goes, if he was not in the bible, I don't think much of what he says has merit in this world. He is just an average Joe like you or me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted May 31, 2018 Moderator Share Posted May 31, 2018 59 minutes ago, Knott said: What is the mind set for worldview, does it not seem to be out of sorts. I don't see anything wrong with an individual trying to lend a hand to humanity, such as Paul. ? Would he be viewed different if he was writing, just not in the bible. Great thinkers through the ages have recorded their thoughts on living a better life. Since leaving Christianity behind I have found great value in Stoic philosophy, which is not as ‘stoic’ or austere as most people might think. For me the words of Seneca, Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius (the great pre-Christian Roman Emperor) outshine those of Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 8 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said: And they pass it on to their children because they believe it. That's all there is to it. Just because religion exists doesn't mean there's any truth to it. True, I have seen it first hand. I also believe if it exists (whatever it may be) it exists for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 8 hours ago, mymistake said: Nobody is in control. Evil is when people cause others to suffer. Good happens when we prevent suffering and cause people to benefit. So humans can respond to tragedy by choosing to do good but it isn't because somebody in control planed it that way. The real heart breaking misfortune is the human propensity to sabotage ourselves without even realizing it because we can't accurately predict what will happen or bring ourselves to care. That is the true meaning of the word stupid. And humans sabotage themselves all the time. I just can't get away from human nature having a controlling factor, if not where does it come from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 31, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 31, 2018 Human nature does have a controlling factor--several, in fact, including, but not limited to, genetics, environment, childhood development, and social, political, and economic factors. We are who our lives make us; and our lives are what we make them. This really isn't the rocket surgery you're trying to make it, @Knott 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 6 hours ago, Storm said: I just don't see how there could be a perfect human Being completed is different from perfect. Perfection IMO would be an individual maturing and growing. I am not the person I was at 18 or 30 or 50. I handle situations different, my wife, people in general, to me that is an individual coming into perfection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Human nature does have a controlling factor--several, in fact, including, but not limited to, genetics, environment, childhood development, and social, political, and economic factors. We are who our lives make us; and our lives are what we make them. This really isn't the rocket surgery you're trying to make it, @Knott Where does the little evil man come from we all dealt with from childhood. We have had no problem living that side at times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 3 hours ago, ThereAndBackAgain said: Great thinkers through the ages have recorded their thoughts on living a better life. Since leaving Christianity behind I have found great value in Stoic philosophy, which is not as ‘stoic’ or austere as most people might think. For me the words of Seneca, Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius (the great pre-Christian Roman Emperor) outshine those of Paul. My deal has always been based on absulutes. As I stated before a big push for me was finding out what made man tick. I was determined to find out through understanding and application, living what I knew. At least to the best of my ability with the awareness of being a completed individual with knowledge. You can not live what you don't know. Point being, trying to just be a good person did not work for me, it was not in me to do it. It does not work for most people, hence the frustration of religion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 31, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 31, 2018 42 minutes ago, Knott said: Where does the little evil man come from we all dealt with from childhood. We have had no problem living that side at times That is also a product of the same factors. Really, there's nothing mystical about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: That is also a product of the same factors. Really, there's nothing mystical about it. Ok so your saying evil is taught or learned. If so what about the child that needs no coaching. If it can be learned would there not be an unlearning. If it didn't exist until learned-taught it could be unlearned-taught to not exist again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 31, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted May 31, 2018 Just now, Knott said: Ok so your saying evil is taught or learned. If so what about the child that needs no coaching. If it can be learned would there not be an unlearning. If it didn't exist until learned-taught it could be unlearned-taught to not exist again. Childhood development is only one factor. A certain amount of selfishness was beneficial to the evolution of our species. It still lingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Knott said: True, I have seen it first hand. I also believe if it exists (whatever it may be) it exists for a reason. Have you fallen into the trap of thinking that because Christianity or religion in general is accepted and even admired by society, there has got to be something more to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 4 hours ago, Knott said: I just can't get away from human nature having a controlling factor, if not where does it come from I don't understand. When you say controlling factor what do you think does the controlling and what is being controlled? Human nature comes from the same thing as cat nature and dog nature and fish nature and fly nature. When an ant hatches from it's egg it doesn't have to be taught anything because it's DNA builds a mind that naturally does what it takes for ants to survive. Does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 4 hours ago, Knott said: I just can't get away from human nature having a controlling factor, if not where does it come from Study genetic and memetic evolution, in homo sapiens as well as several other select species. Although the term "controlling" may be a bit hyperbolic, I suspect you will find strong influence from these sources upon individual organisms and populations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 On 5/30/2018 at 9:11 AM, Storm said: As humans, we have a long maturation period until we are adults and some scientists believe that, due to this long maturation time, and due to our need to rely on someone else for our survival for the first several years of our life, this mechanism (our reliance on others) that is innate in our minds only continues into our adulthood. It brings comfort to us when we think that a cosmic being is still caring for us and that it still has some control over our lives. Religion uses this already intuitive process and applies it to what already is natural for us to believe. Its like a match made in heaven. Its why religion in general is so prevalent through the world. I give the scientists the benefit of the doubt simply because I judge most everything based on my experience. One thing we haven't discussed in the thread is love. When and where can love fit into an individuals life expression. I believe science makes a good to about maturation, if that is all they have to say about it I don't believe they can understand the full meaning. Finding comfort and reliance would be the beginning but in no way an end. Progression into something far deeper than relying on some form of helps is the out come. Maturity- maturing is the word I would use for this. Love with out any ties to getting, you do because you love reguardless if you ever recieve anything again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 8 hours ago, mymistake said: I don't understand. When you say controlling factor what do you think does the controlling and what is being controlled? Human nature controlling the human. If it is learned why good or evil, why not something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 9 hours ago, sdelsolray said: Study genetic and memetic evolution, in homo sapiens as well as several other select species. Although the term "controlling" may be a bit hyperbolic, I suspect you will find strong influence from these sources upon individual organisms and populations. I took a look, what I saw was the cause and effect of the nature in this case, am I reading it right. To me that is still not the root. Ok this may be a simple example but with say a 10 month old, we tell them share your toys and they have a problem doing that. I cant see that as being taught or picking it up from someone already. It has to be in them from birth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knott Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 On 5/30/2018 at 9:11 AM, Storm said: So, the powerful combination of prepackaged worldview and our own limitations as humans makes for the perfect canvas for religion to paint itself upon our lives. I understand the thought here but again it is just a start. The packaging once opened can lead to a lifetime of pioneering journey, there is no end. We judge based on bad experiences, like that was the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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