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Goodbye Jesus

Trying to understand


Knott

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On 5/30/2018 at 9:11 AM, Storm said:

"Would a divinely inspired book have contradictions?

 

Do you have any in mind?

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3 hours ago, Knott said:

 

Human nature controlling the human. If it is learned why good or evil, why not something else.

 

Okay, of course your nature controls you.  That is why you, as a human, are using the internet to converse with other humans rather than say flying around collecting nectar from flowers.  Your DNA told your cells what kind of creature they were to build.  And the construction instructions determined what you would not be able to do and many of the things you would be able to do.  Some people with the right DNA wind up as professional athletes.  It's all about how your cells constructed you.

 

Your basic emotions and instincts come naturally to you because the part of your brain that makes them is detailed in your DNA.  Nobody had to teach you to feel thirsty when you need water.  It's a built in survival mechanism.  Now for good and evil it's a bit more complicated than that because they are complicated concepts.  But they are driven by an instinct in your DNA.  Because you are human you survival is tied to your family.  You went through the infant stage of life where some humans had to do everything for you or else you would die.  So our survival depends on the collective which is our basic family and tribe concept.  Helping the family/tribe is the root of good.  Sabotaging the family/tribe is the root of evil.

 

 

Examples:

You see somebody kick a puppy.  Does this action tend to help the tribe/family or sabotage the tribe/family?

You see somebody rescue a child who had fallen into a well.  Does this action tend to help or rather sabotage the tribe/family?

Does murder help or sabotage the tribe/family?

Does bringing home/cooking food help or sabotage?

 

You get the idea.  Much more complicated ideas get built upon the roots of good or evil.

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2 hours ago, Knott said:

 

Do you have any in mind?

 

Well.....

 

1) What were Jesus' last words? (Three gospels give different answers)

2) How many people visited the tomb when they found him missing? Was it one (John), two (Matthew), three (Mark), or just "the women" (Luke)?

3) Who buried Jesus? Joseph of Arimathea (Matthew), the Jews/ their rulers (Acts)?

4) Who did the women see at the tomb? One person (Matthew/ Mark) or two (Luke /John)? Possibly angel(s)?

5) A giant earthquake rolling back the stone in front of the tomb? Yes, ( Matthew), no, it was already open (other three)

6) Did Mary Magdalene recognize Jesus? Yes (Matthew), no (John/Luke).

7) Also, only of the books of the Bible (Matthew 27:51-53) talks about  an earthquake tearing the temple veil and an earthquake opening the graves of many people....um what? Nowhere else in the bible (or history, to my knowledge) does a mass zombie jew event happen.

 

I could keep going, but it's your own journey to research it. It's one thing to get a detail or two wrong (if you take out the fact that it's supposed to be the inspired word of god), but.....it's almost like a completely different story when you look at all the different books. I haven't even brought up the wrong birth of Jesus genealogies, the weird "Mary and Jesus run to Egypt" vs. "No, there was a census not on historical record that forced people to go to a different city," or when the crucifixion actually happened......there are really too many to cover here.

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27 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

Okay, of course your nature controls you.  That is why you, as a human, are using the internet to converse with other humans rather than say flying around collecting nectar from flowers.  Your DNA told your cells what kind of creature they were to build.  And the construction instructions determined what you would not be able to do and many of the things you would be able to do.  Some people with the right DNA wind up as professional athletes.  It's all about how your cells constructed you.

 

Your basic emotions and instincts come naturally to you because the part of your brain that makes them is detailed in your DNA.  Nobody had to teach you to feel thirsty when you need water.  It's a built in survival mechanism.  Now for good and evil it's a bit more complicated than that because they are complicated concepts.  But they are driven by an instinct in your DNA.  Because you are human you survival is tied to your family.  You went through the infant stage of life where some humans had to do everything for you or else you would die.  So our survival depends on the collective which is our basic family and tribe concept.  Helping the family/tribe is the root of good.  Sabotaging the family/tribe is the root of evil.

 

 

Examples:

You see somebody kick a puppy.  Does this action tend to help the tribe/family or sabotage the tribe/family?

You see somebody rescue a child who had fallen into a well.  Does this action tend to help or rather sabotage the tribe/family?

Does murder help or sabotage the tribe/family?

Does bringing home/cooking food help or sabotage?

 

You get the idea.  Much more complicated ideas get built upon the roots of good or evil.

 

I think this a good reason for the some of the roots, I think it's important to consider the social/cultural nature of "morality" as we've continued to evolve and develop. You know, things we would have no moral issue with here (I'm in the US) could be considered cruel in another culture.....like a baby crib in a nursery becomes a caged infant in an isolated room, for example. 

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6 hours ago, Knott said:

 

I took a look, what I saw was the cause and effect of the nature in this case, am I reading it right. To me that is still not the root.

Ok this may be a simple example but with say a 10 month old, we tell them share your toys and they have a problem doing that. I cant see that as being taught or picking it up from someone already. It has to be in them from birth

Again, a certain amount of selfishness was beneficial to the evolution of our species.  It has been with us for tens of thousands of years, to the point that it has become instinctual.  Much of our "development" involves overcoming our baser,  more primal drives.  Your toddler is just acting on instinct.

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On 5/28/2018 at 6:25 PM, florduh said:

Christian heretics come here because we welcome them while the Christian sites boot them off immediately. Is there perhaps a lesson in that?

 

Yeah, but I have yet to meet an actual Christard heretic who is interested in their faith as a benefit to them and them alone.

 

They always come here with a message that the established churches reject, but still with an agenda to convince, convert, "make you see", etc.

 

This clod is no different. The problem, as he sees it, is that there are SO few people who have REALLY understood the MagicBook™ and have been zapped by the Undead Sky Man.

 

He's not here because he left things he didn't agree with - he's here because HE'S the one with the Truly-True-Truth!!

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On 5/25/2018 at 5:08 AM, Knott said:

So what I'm curious about is: when you left whatever you left, was it because of all the man-made dogma junk, and being used like a piece of meat in structured religion. 

 

     What part of religion, any religion, isn't man-made?  I ask because, to my knowledge all religions are man-made.  None exist purely in nature.  None have simply "fallen out of the sky" or "materialized" without any human involvement.  Humans have laid claim, in some way, shape or form, to all religions.

 

     I, personally, would love to see some organic religion.  Untouched/unaided by humans in any way.  A religion that simply exists.  Like some ancient coal-bed that pre-dates humans we can't lay claim to its origins or anything within in any way but, yet, there it is.  And as we dig through it all of "god's" mysteries are revealed.  But that's not how any religion is.  They all start and end with us.

 

          mwc

 

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17 hours ago, L.B. said:

 

Yeah, but I have yet to meet an actual Christard heretic who is interested in their faith as a benefit to them and them alone.

 

They always come here with a message that the established churches reject, but still with an agenda to convince, convert, "make you see", etc.

 

This clod is no different. The problem, as he sees it, is that there are SO few people who have REALLY understood the MagicBook™ and have been zapped by the Undead Sky Man.

 

He's not here because he left things he didn't agree with - he's here because HE'S the one with the Truly-True-Truth!!

 

 

Yes, plenty of our Christian visitors fit this description.  However a few of them visit us because they have begun the process and will become ex-Christians soon.  They may not want to admit it yet, not even to themselves.  I'm not making a specific claim about any particular visitor but I think we should keep this possibility in mind.

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19 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

Well.....

 

1) What were Jesus' last words? (Three gospels give different answers)

2) How many people visited the tomb when they found him missing? Was it one (John), two (Matthew), three (Mark), or just "the women" (Luke)?

3) Who buried Jesus? Joseph of Arimathea (Matthew), the Jews/ their rulers (Acts)?

4) Who did the women see at the tomb? One person (Matthew/ Mark) or two (Luke /John)? Possibly angel(s)?

5) A giant earthquake rolling back the stone in front of the tomb? Yes, ( Matthew), no, it was already open (other three)

6) Did Mary Magdalene recognize Jesus? Yes (Matthew), no (John/Luke).

7) Also, only of the books of the Bible (Matthew 27:51-53) talks about  an earthquake tearing the temple veil and an earthquake opening the graves of many people....um what? Nowhere else in the bible (or history, to my knowledge) does a mass zombie jew event happen.

 

I could keep going, but it's your own journey to research it. It's one thing to get a detail or two wrong (if you take out the fact that it's supposed to be the inspired word of god), but.....it's almost like a completely different story when you look at all the different books. I haven't even brought up the wrong birth of Jesus genealogies, the weird "Mary and Jesus run to Egypt" vs. "No, there was a census not on historical record that forced people to go to a different city," or when the crucifixion actually happened......there are really too many to cover here.

 

Thanks, that was what I was wondering where some of the contradictions were. I have heard about others, certain scriptures not lining up. I know you guys have done your homework and have been defending if for sometime and I respect that. I'll take more time to go over them, now it seems like a stretch to say they are contradictions, I'll delve in deeper. 

I have been saying for years now that Ephesians chapter 1 tells a person all they would ever need to know. If we had nothing else in written form, it holds the answer. Again the importance of Paul for life, without him there is no knowledge. He and he alone is the first to give the "in Christ" statement. And it is repeated numerous times in his epistles only. He and Peter never got along much, finally deciding, Peter would keep preaching law and Paul this new gospel of grace. Paul made it clear to follow him if you were ever going to know anything, such as Christ as life because that was Paul's message given to him directly from Christ himself. Paul called it "my gospel," given to him to give to who so ever will, Eph. 3. A message that goes with the new birth, how else would people know they had christ in them without it being written. Religion may mention it maybe, but never as being a message. You kidding me you think they would tell people they are completed by christ in them ha you got to be joking, and risk the people never coming back. First they can't tell you what they don't know. This will not come from a pulpit or whatever, it does not come from any man (as far as originating) but Paul and it was just a message to he carried

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1 hour ago, Knott said:

 

Thanks, that was what I was wondering where some of the contradictions were. I have heard about others, certain scriptures not lining up. I know you guys have done your homework and have been defending if for sometime and I respect that. I'll take more time to go over them, now it seems like a stretch to say they are contradictions, I'll delve in deeper. 

I have been saying for years now that Ephesians chapter 1 tells a person all they would ever need to know. If we had nothing else in written form, it holds the answer. Again the importance of Paul for life, without him there is no knowledge. He and he alone is the first to give the "in Christ" statement. And it is repeated numerous times in his epistles only. He and Peter never got along much, finally deciding, Peter would keep preaching law and Paul this new gospel of grace. Paul made it clear to follow him if you were ever going to know anything, such as Christ as life because that was Paul's message given to him directly from Christ himself. Paul called it "my gospel," given to him to give to who so ever will, Eph. 3. A message that goes with the new birth, how else would people know they had christ in them without it being written. Religion may mention it maybe, but never as being a message. You kidding me you think they would tell people they are completed by christ in them ha you got to be joking, and risk the people never coming back. First they can't tell you what they don't know. This will not come from a pulpit or whatever, it does not come from any man (as far as originating) but Paul and it was just a message to he carried

 

 

Would you agree with Paul that Jesus is not God?  Paul always made it clear that God and Jesus are different.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

 

Would you agree with Paul that Jesus is not God?  Paul always made it clear that God and Jesus are different.

 

 

 

 

 Can I ask what you think about Paul's message first

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6 minutes ago, Knott said:

 

 Can I ask what you think about Paul's message first

 

I'm an ex-Christian so maybe you don't want to know.  Not really.

 

 

 

Back when I was a Christian I had only wonderful things to say about Paul but deep down inside I thought God never gave me enough wisdom to understand Paul.  Now that I have a different perspective Paul is obviously a scam artist who was trying to create a hybrid mystery religion.  Paul took some elements from Judaism because that would give Paul's new religion good atmosphere.  In Paul's religion Jesus is an archangel that God choose to work salvation through.  In Ephesians 1 Paul mentions predestination.  Predestination was useful because it makes potential followers feel special.  "If you follow me then that means God choose you."  In Eph 1 Paul continues to talk up a storm using extremes.  God has all knowledge yet his will is a mystery.  Jesus loves us, Christ's grace is glorious, God's grace is glorious too.  It's the hook of a scam.  Believe all this stuff and start sending Paul your extra money.  Follow Paul now and you will have a the riches of a glorious inheritance in a magical place you go to after you die. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, mymistake said:

 

I'm an ex-Christian so maybe you don't want to know.  Not really.

 

 

 

Back when I was a Christian I had only wonderful things to say about Paul but deep down inside I thought God never gave me enough wisdom to understand Paul.  Now that I have a different perspective Paul is obviously a scam artist who was trying to create a hybrid mystery religion.  Paul took some elements from Judaism because that would give Paul's new religion good atmosphere.  In Paul's religion Jesus is an archangel that God choose to work salvation through.  In Ephesians 1 Paul mentions predestination.  Predestination was useful because it makes potential followers feel special.  "If you follow me then that means God choose you."  In Eph 1 Paul continues to talk up a storm using extremes.  God has all knowledge yet his will is a mystery.  Jesus loves us, Christ's grace is glorious, God's grace is glorious too.  It's the hook of a scam.  Believe all this stuff and start sending Paul your extra money.  Follow Paul now and you will have a the riches of a glorious inheritance in a magical place you go to after you die. 

 

 

 

Yea that could have went anywhere ha thanks for your answer. I'll roll that around some while I'm out buying yard sale shit so my horder wife can have 6 deeper back up crap 

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16 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

 

Yes, plenty of our Christian visitors fit this description.  However a few of them visit us because they have begun the process and will become ex-Christians soon.  They may not want to admit it yet, not even to themselves.  I'm not making a specific claim about any particular visitor but I think we should keep this possibility in mind.

 

I agree, but those people are not really CHRISTIAN heretics. They are people who are beginning to leave their faith, not try to hang on to it by reinterpreting or trying to get others to see things differently just one more time.

 

What I meant is that people like JimmyFoJesus and Knott are just people trying to hang on to some actual, realistic meaning from the bible, because they're scared of the real world where that shit isn't real.

 

Sorry, but there's a big difference between accepting that a relatively few things in the bible actually square with reason and reality and believing that those things are true because of the bible and some magical power that must be attributed to it.

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12 hours ago, L.B. said:

 

I agree, but those people are not really CHRISTIAN heretics. They are people who are beginning to leave their faith, not try to hang on to it by reinterpreting or trying to get others to see things differently just one more time.

 

What I meant is that people like JimmyFoJesus and Knott are just people trying to hang on to some actual, realistic meaning from the bible, because they're scared of the real world where that shit isn't real.

 

Sorry, but there's a big difference between accepting that a relatively few things in the bible actually square with reason and reality and believing that those things are true because of the bible and some magical power that must be attributed to it.

 

 

You are not wrong.  I agree with you.  I'm just saying that those two kinds of people look a lot alike.  All I am asking is that we not get trigger happy.

 

 

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On 6/1/2018 at 9:33 AM, mymistake said:

 

Okay, of course your nature controls you.  That is why you, as a human, are using the internet to converse with other humans rather than say flying around collecting nectar from flowers. 

 

Right the natural patterns of life, but I'm talking about instincly good or evil. I just can't see that as a learning process at it's root. Sure we monkey see-do things but that is not a root cause imo. I'm not saying " oh it's the devil he made me do it" but it really seems to me the root cause has had to come from some where other than being learned. That is why I believe in a sin nature at birth because of a fall. I get what you guys are saying about it and trying to look at it but as of now it is just not coming to me as any kind of an answer. If anything quite the opposite. Due respect it does remind me some of the other C forums because no one would say "this is it I got it" all hope so maybe or what others say. And I'm the scared one, at least I'll say it with all repercussion in mind. Anyway nature was big it can answer many questions

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3 minutes ago, Knott said:

 

Right the natural patterns of life, but I'm talking about instincly good or evil. I just can't see that as a learning process at it's root. Sure we monkey see-do things but that is not a root cause imo. I'm not saying " oh it's the devil he made me do it" but it really seems to me the root cause has had to come from some where other than being learned. That is why I believe in a sin nature at birth because of a fall.

 

You and @Thumbelina should have it out because she doesn't believe we are born sinful from the fall. I'm not sure which Christian to believe - can you help me decide?

 

What do you mean by good and evil?

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On 6/1/2018 at 10:01 AM, ag_NO_stic said:

 

I could keep going, but it's your own journey to research it. It's one thing to get a detail or two wrong (if you take out the fact that it's supposed to be the inspired word of god), but...

 

The first few that I have looked at are not a very strong argument imo, I'll keep looking thanks for posting them. 

Mass jew zombie event that's funny haha!!!!

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8 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

You and @Thumbelina should have it out because she doesn't believe we are born sinful from the fall. I'm not sure which Christian to believe - can you help me decide?

 

What do you mean by good and evil?

 

She don't shame on her.

Good and evil, the choice to do either came from a (natural) birth, inherently. I also believe that is how you get to be who you are today, is from a spirtual birth (born again). That birthing is Christ in you, it is the simplest thing that can happen to humanity, at the same time the furthest thing from their mind.

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4 minutes ago, Knott said:

 

She don't shame on her.

 

I know right. That @Thumbelina doesn't know her bible as well as she thinks. 

 

4 minutes ago, Knott said:

Good and evil, the choice to do either came from a (natural) birth, inherently. I also believe that is how you get to be who you are today, is from a spirtual birth (born again). That birthing is Christ in you, it is the simplest thing that can happen to humanity, at the same time the furthest thing from their mind.

 

No no, I didn't mean give me a doctrinal sermon. I mean what do you call good, what do you call evil. What are your definitions? How do you decide if something is good and something is evil?

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22 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

 

Would you agree with Paul that Jesus is not God?  Paul always made it clear that God and Jesus are different.

 

 

 

 

Are you referring to the way Paul starts his letters. If so I do not see a discrepancy in Paul and Jesus being god in the flesh. 

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58 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I know right. That @Thumbelina doesn't know her bible as well as she thinks. 

 

 

No no, I didn't mean give me a doctrinal sermon. I mean what do you call good, what do you call evil. What are your definitions? How do you decide if something is good and something is evil?

 

The nature has in it the knowledge of good and evil. I see good and evil in the nature, we see the manifestation of it dailey. With that, the born again do not have a sin nature (this will open up a good can) that is what the cross killed out. What they have is an unrenewed mind to keep doing basically what they have always done. The reason we are in this discussion is the unrenewed mind. The renewing of the mind is to see Christ as your only life. Again Paul is the only one that takes you into that. 

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3 minutes ago, Knott said:

 

The nature has in it the knowledge of good and evil. I see good and evil in the nature, we see the manifestation of it dailey. With that, the born again do not have a sin nature (this will open up a good can) that is what the cross killed out. What they have is an unrenewed mind to keep doing basically what they have always done. The reason we are in this discussion is the unrenewed mind. The renewing of the mind is to see Christ as your only life. Again Paul is the only one that takes you into that. 

 

Again the sermon.

 

What are you calling good and evil? You are using these words but I don't know what you mean. I know what I mean by good and evil, but I suspect our definitions differ and I want to know what you mean by "good" and "evil".

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45 minutes ago, Knott said:

 

Are you referring to the way Paul starts his letters. If so I do not see a discrepancy in Paul and Jesus being god in the flesh. 

 

Paul was not a Trinitarian.  He would probably call trinity a false gospel.  Paul did mention the spirit of God but as an aspect of God.  Let's look at the chapter you mentioned, Ephesians 1.  To Paul Jesus was not God the Son but rather the first of what all Christians would become and also the method through which Christians would become God's sons.  Christians don't all become God the Son.  The reason Jesus was our Lord was because God choose Jesus to be the method through which we become the sons of God.

 

(NIV translation)

V1.   " . . . and apostle of JC by the will of G."       (Notice JC and G are different people.  Jesus is not God.)

 

V2   " . . . from G our F and the LJC."             (Again JC and G are different people.  Jesus is not God)

 

V3  " . . . the G and F of our LJC."                   (Jesus is not God)

 

V5  " . . . he predestined us for adoption to sonship through JC . . ."         (We are adopted and become sons.  The word "he" refers to God and Jesus is not God)

 

V6  " . . . he has freely given us in the one he loves . . . "    (the two different hes refer to G and J who are different)

 

V7  " In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace"     (The blood comes from J while the grace is from G, who are not the same.)

 

V9  " . . . his good pleasure, which he purposed in C"     (God and Christ are different)

 

V11  (the two hims refer to different people.  One is God and the other is Jesus.  Jesus is not God.)

 

V13-14  (The Holy Spirit is a "deposit guaranteeing our inheritance".  Notice how Paul doesn't go out of his way to make the Holy Spirit a separate entity from God?)

 

V17  " . . . the G of our LJC . . . "   (Jesus isn't God but rather God is the God of Jesus)

 

V20  " . . . he raised C from the dead"   (Jesus isn't God the Son)

 

V22 "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church"  (Jesus is our Lord because God appointed Jesus for that role.  It was God's choice.  Jesus is not God.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Knott said:

 

Right the natural patterns of life, but I'm talking about instincly good or evil. I just can't see that as a learning process at it's root. Sure we monkey see-do things but that is not a root cause imo. I'm not saying " oh it's the devil he made me do it" but it really seems to me the root cause has had to come from some where other than being learned. 

 

Like I said in a different post, your DNA gives you a desire to support and help your tribe because your tribe is the only way you can survive.  Humans instinctively see actions that betray or sabotage the tribe as evil.  Now what we learn builds upon this instinct and can become very complicated.  But these instincts will be universal.

 

In every culture, humans will see murdering your own mother as evil.

In every culture, humans will see kicking a puppy as evil.

 

These are basic actions that betray the tribe.  You don't have to learn it's evil.  Sabotaging what we need to survive is evil at the instinctive level.  This is where the concept comes from.

 

In every culture, humans will run to help an infant in distress because all cultures will see that as good.  Infants don't need to be taught how to cry when their very survival is at risk.  It's in their DNA.  The instinct for adults to help is also in the DNA.  If you have ever heard a baby get hurt they spend three seconds sucking in all the air they can and then let it out as the loudest sound possible.  You can't help but notice and run toward the sound.

 

 

5 hours ago, Knott said:

That is why I believe in a sin nature at birth because of a fall.

 

 

Yet there is no evidence for that.  Just a book written by religious people and every religion has a holy book.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Knott said:

I get what you guys are saying about it and trying to look at it but as of now it is just not coming to me as any kind of an answer. If anything quite the opposite. Due respect it does remind me some of the other C forums because no one would say "this is it I got it" all hope so maybe or what others say. And I'm the scared one, at least I'll say it with all repercussion in mind. Anyway nature was big it can answer many questions

 

 

It's not my job to deconvert you.  Nor would I ever try unless you asked for help.  You are welcome to stay around and talk about non-religious topics.  

 

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