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Goodbye Jesus

Trying to understand


Knott

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14 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

 

This sounds like a Darkmatter2525 video.  God is sitting in the void prior to creation and musing to himself.  "If I don't create Lucifer then all of my angels will remain loyal and all of the humans I create will be happy and be rewarded for all eternity.  But if I do create Lucifer then a third of the angels will have to be flung into the abyss and over six billion humans will have to burn in hell forever and ever.   Hmmm . . . what should I do?  What should I do?  Hmmm . . . I'm going to create Lucifer anyway!"

 

I haven't really seen his stuff, but I just youtubed him. Looks like I shall have quite an entertaining morning. :)

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1 hour ago, buffettphan said:

 

Done!  He actually earned that badge upon arrival here with his own "speshul brand of christinsanity" and I've been trying to edit his profile ever since.   Finally this morning, the edit "took".    :HaHa:

 

Gracias!

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22 hours ago, Knott said:

 

The very words ex-christian intrigued me, there is no such thing.

 

If we say we are ex-Christians, we are.  Your opinion in that regard is an attempt to dismiss our experiences, and is unforgivably rude.

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2 hours ago, Astreja said:

 

If we say we are ex-Christians, we are.  Your opinion in that regard is an attempt to dismiss our experiences, and is unforgivably rude.

 

Well, in fairness this is the Lion's Den, where we are expected to be blunt.  A Christian is permitted to tell me I'm going to burn in Hell and I'm permitted to tell him his god is imaginary.

 

 

Now, back to you, Knott...

 

On 6/3/2018 at 4:15 PM, Knott said:

 

The very words ex-christian intrigued me, there is no such thing. No more than you can unbirth yourself from your parents. If a person has ever been born again, regardless of his mind set, he still has Christ in him/her. It is religion only that believes otherwise.

 

As a young man I made a personal commitment to Christ and was baptized.  Decades later I came to believe that neither the god of the Bible nor any other gods exist.  I renounced Christianity.  I believe that Jesus, if he ever existed, is long dead.  I believe there is no Father, no Son, no Holy Spirit, no Heaven, no Hell, no sin and no salvation.  And yet you believe I am still a Christian and that Christ lives within me, amirite?   If so, what does that mean for me, practically speaking?  How am I different from somebody who never believed at all?

 

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6 hours ago, buffettphan said:

 

Done!  He actually earned that badge upon arrival here with his own "speshul brand of christinsanity" and I've been trying to edit his profile ever since.   Finally this morning, the edit "took".    :HaHa:

 

Praise the Holy Spook! May the noodly appendage touch you - assuming it has consent of course!

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15 hours ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

As a young man I made a personal commitment to Christ and was baptized.  Decades later I came to believe that neither the god of the Bible nor any other gods exist.  I renounced Christianity.  I believe that Jesus, if he ever existed, is long dead.  I believe there is no Father, no Son, no Holy Spirit, no Heaven, no Hell, no sin and no salvation.  And yet you believe I am still a Christian and that Christ lives within me, amirite?   If so, what does that mean for me, practically speaking?  How am I different from somebody who never believed at all?

Yes that's right, if an individual is birthed by the father (which happens by christ in you, the moment you believe). There is that thing in us that thinks what we believe is what saves us. In whom you believed is your salvation, Christ in you is your salvation or the exchange of natures. The nature of god being in christ.

First it means you have Christ in you.

Secondly it means you have no idea what that means, as far as pertaining to life. Outer as well as inner life. It is the preconceived notions of religion that dangles it souls over hell for not believing right or as little as missing a meeting. That is what is bought into, and the frustration begins. You can not find it written for the born again. You know Paul yourself as an ex-believer, he never mixed law with the grace message, quite the opposite even withstanding Peter to his face.

The difference between believers and non is, believers have christ in them. If they have no knowledge of that they usally just become another religion entity changing religions, beliefs, so on and become an advocate for the new religion of beliefs

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Why would Jesus let someone ‘believe the wrong way’ ? Jesus sounds very mean if thats the case. 

 

john 3:16 doesnt mention believing a right or wrong way. 

 

Why does Knott talk about dangling over hell while Thumbelina doesnt believe in hell?

 

Which believer really has Christ in them? Neither, I suspect. 

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1 hour ago, Knott said:

Yes that's right, if an individual is birthed by the father (which happens by christ in you, the moment you believe). There is that thing in us that thinks what we believe is what saves us. In whom you believed is your salvation, Christ in you is your salvation or the exchange of natures. The nature of god being in christ.

First it means you have Christ in you.

Secondly it means you have no idea what that means, as far as pertaining to life. Outer as well as inner life. It is the preconceived notions of religion that dangles it souls over hell for not believing right or as little as missing a meeting. That is what is bought into, and the frustration begins. You can not find it written for the born again. You know Paul yourself as an ex-believer, he never mixed law with the grace message, quite the opposite even withstanding Peter to his face.

The difference between believers and non is, believers have christ in them. If they have no knowledge of that they usally just become another religion entity changing religions, beliefs, so on and become an advocate for the new religion of beliefs

 

Speak for yourself, not others.

 

Here, read this in front of a mirror:

Quote

Yes that's right, if I am is birthed by the father (which happens by christ in me, the moment I believe). There is that thing in me that thinks what I believe is what saves me. In whom I believed is my salvation, Christ in me is my salvation or the exchange of natures. The nature of god being in christ.

First it means I have Christ in myself.

...

 

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So @Knott  does that mean you agree with the school of thought that "once saved, always saved"?  You have asserted that ex-Christians cannot exist but admit that ex-believers do exist.  Does that make us as Christians who no longer believe?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Knott said:

The difference between believers and non is, believers have christ in them.

 

I think the above sentence should read "believers believe that they have christ in them."  I sincerely, deeply believe that you are no different in any material way from non-believers and are literally only imagining that you have that divine add-on.

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2 hours ago, mymistake said:

So @Knott  does that mean you agree with the school of thought that "once saved, always saved"?  You have asserted that ex-Christians cannot exist but admit that ex-believers do exist.  Does that make us as Christians who no longer believe?

 

   

 

The doctrine OSAS you are referring to is what denominations have put together in general and call it a gospel, no I don't agree with the doctrines of denominations reguardless of the position they claim.

Used the term ex- in repect to the poster.

That should answer your last question

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9 minutes ago, Knott said:

 

The doctrine OSAS you are referring to is what denominations have put together in general and call it a gospel, no I don't agree with the doctrines of denominations reguardless of the position they claim.

Used the term ex- in repect to the poster.

That should answer your last question

 

I don't want to assume what you believe because getting it wrong would be rude.  That is why I would like you to tell me what you believe.  I don't want to infer it.  Please provide strait answers.

 

 

You now accept that ex-Christians exist after all?  Were you trying to say that we were never saved?  I'm just trying to figure out where you stand.

 

 

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2 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

I don't want to assume what you believe because getting it wrong would be rude.  That is why I would like you to tell me what you believe.  I don't want to infer it.  Please provide strait answers.

 

 

You now accept that ex-Christians exist after all?  Were you trying to say that we were never saved?  I'm just trying to figure out where you stand.

 

 

 

I think my answers have been clear. Time and time again I have stated what I believe. No i don't believe there is such a thing as an ex-christian. I believe they do not know what happened to them the moment they believed and were duped into whatever they went through in religion. I feel the same way about religion, just not the bible. I believe your salvation is the same as mine, Christ in you. Salvation is a person, the gospel is a person, everything is personified in Christ. We feel it is us that does the saving-unsaving by what we believe, it was totally an act of god to birth the believer.

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20 minutes ago, Knott said:

 

I think my answers have been clear. Time and time again I have stated what I believe. No i don't believe there is such a thing as an ex-christian. I believe they do not know what happened to them the moment they believed and were duped into whatever they went through in religion. I feel the same way about religion, just not the bible. I believe your salvation is the same as mine, Christ in you. Salvation is a person, the gospel is a person, everything is personified in Christ. We feel it is us that does the saving-unsaving by what we believe, it was totally an act of god to birth the believer.

 

This is wonderfully self-reinforcing.

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1 hour ago, Knott said:

 

I think my answers have been clear.

 

 

Mostly not but perhaps it can't be helped.

 

 

1 hour ago, Knott said:

Time and time again I have stated what I believe. No i don't believe there is such a thing as an ex-christian. I believe they do not know what happened to them the moment they believed and were duped into whatever they went through in religion. I feel the same way about religion, just not the bible. I believe your salvation is the same as mine, Christ in you. Salvation is a person, the gospel is a person, everything is personified in Christ. We feel it is us that does the saving-unsaving by what we believe, it was totally an act of god to birth the believer.

 

 

It's very common for Christians to stop attending church and then form their own personal denomination.  When that happens, typically the individual thinks that all the other forms of Christianity got it wrong.

 

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@Knott Please answer the question below regarding what is good and evil or accept my definitions

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 10:59 AM, LogicalFallacy said:
On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 1:47 AM, Knott said:

 

The ability to do good-evil innately.

 

You sir are simply not answering the question. 

 

What are you calling good, what are you calling evil? Even if it's innate, what is it that's innate?

 

Perhaps I could give you my definition of good and we go from there? Good is that which increases wellbeing, or decreases suffering, and evil is that which decreases wellbeing or increases suffering. Would you agree on those definitions?

 

 

1 hour ago, Knott said:

I think my answers have been clear. Time and time again I have stated what I believe. No i don't believe there is such a thing as an ex-christian.

Well you are of course entitled to believe whatever nonsense you like but considering the number of Ex-Christians you are talking to right now, your belief that there are no such a thing as an ex-Christian is clearly and demonstrably a delusion.

 

There was a guy on youtube, a pastor who makes exactly the same unfounded argument. Christians who assert this seem to rely on a key verse.

 

1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

 

And yet Hebrews talks about "those who were once enlightened" I.e those who were once Christians. So which verse do you attribute, and do they make sense anyway?

 

Do you believe there are Ex-Muslims, Ex-Worldy people etc?

 

The whole there are no such things as Ex [insert whatever] is simply a psychological defence mechanism on the part of those denying the reality that there are Ex [insert whatever]. The reasons for this probably have to do with protecting the belief and making the person saying so feel better in themselves.

 

1 hour ago, Knott said:

I believe they do not know what happened to them the moment they believed and were duped into whatever they went through in religion.

 

What do you mean by this? We don't know ourselves but you know us?

 

You have a lot of unfounded beliefs - you might want to rid yourself of them or you'll just end up living in a fantasy world inside your head that has little resemblance to reality.

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17 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

...

You (Poster Knott) have a lot of unfounded beliefs - you might want to rid yourself of them or you'll just end up living in a fantasy world inside your head that has little resemblance to reality.

 

Well, Knott is here "Trying to understand" (that's the title to this thread he started).  He doesn't seem to be "trying to understand" at all, except perhaps his own personal woo woo.

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4 hours ago, Knott said:

 

I think my answers have been clear. Time and time again I have stated what I believe. No i don't believe there is such a thing as an ex-christian. I believe they do not know what happened to them the moment they believed and were duped into whatever they went through in religion. I feel the same way about religion, just not the bible. I believe your salvation is the same as mine, Christ in you. Salvation is a person, the gospel is a person, everything is personified in Christ. We feel it is us that does the saving-unsaving by what we believe, it was totally an act of god to birth the believer.

 

So if I don't believe in the Jesus that's still inside me from the time that I DID believe in him .... do I still go to heaven?

 

I mean, John 3:16 seems pretty clear on the matter. The choice seems to be mine, according to your bible. And it would appear that John 3:16 contradicts this OSAS thing you are claiming. Will I be taking a little piece of Christ to hell with me should I continue not to believe in Jesus?

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1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Well, Knott is here "Trying to understand" (that's the title to this thread he started).  He doesn't seem to be "trying to understand" at all, except perhaps his own personal woo woo.

 

Seems to be preaching, yes.

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@Knott I believed in Christ in me. I was hung ho for the "relationship, not religion" bs. If I had found any evidence for Christ in me I would still believe. I pursued this "relationship" through a multitude of avenues and came up short. No Christ in me. You sir do knott know what you are talking about. Realize that your belief system  needs logical fallacies to shore itself up. That should concern you.

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3 hours ago, Eowynesque said:

@Knott I believed in Christ in me. I was hung ho for the "relationship, not religion"7 bs. If I had found any evidence for Christ in me I would still believe. I pursued this "relationship" through a multitude of avenues and came up short. No Christ in me. You sir do knott know what you are talking about. Realize that your belief system  needs logical fallacies to shore itself up. That should concern you.

 

I understand what you are saying, I do respect others beliefs. Sure I take a stand for my own and try to give an answer for what I believe as well. I'm not trying to convert or convince anyone of what I see, simply talking about it. I know it means nothing to others if it is something they don't see. Same with me it seems very odd for someone to say the scriptures are not inspired. But if that is what they believe first I can understand how they have got there. And second why the strong defence of it. I had most of the same questions as most I suppose but when I came to see Paul and what he was saying to the born again, I relooked at everything. Some of the posters have shared some really deep stuff and I did take a look to see what was being said, nothing was as deep as Paul addressing Christ in the the believer by a birthing. Those that have taken the time to reason out the scriptures really didn't go far because they are convinced the bible is not true, no reason for an arguement, the mind is made up. So most have claims to what I have said without the knowledge of what I'm even saying. Judging based on how they see Christianity. This is a message that you do not hear in mainstream religion. 

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23 hours ago, Knott said:

Yes that's right, if an individual is birthed by the father (which happens by christ in you, the moment you believe). There is that thing in us that thinks what we believe is what saves us. In whom you believed is your salvation, Christ in you is your salvation or the exchange of natures. The nature of god being in christ.

First it means you have Christ in you.

Secondly it means you have no idea what that means, as far as pertaining to life. Outer as well as inner life. It is the preconceived notions of religion that dangles it souls over hell for not believing right or as little as missing a meeting. That is what is bought into, and the frustration begins. You can not find it written for the born again. You know Paul yourself as an ex-believer, he never mixed law with the grace message, quite the opposite even withstanding Peter to his face.

The difference between believers and non is, believers have christ in them. If they have no knowledge of that they usally just become another religion entity changing religions, beliefs, so on and become an advocate for the new religion of beliefs

 

Knott, I'm struggling a bit to understand here.  Let's see if I can restate your beliefs and you tell me if I'm understanding you or where I'm not.  I think your position is as follows...

 

  1. Christ entered me (I was born again) when I first believed.
  2. After that happened, nothing could change the fact that Christ lives in me and that I am saved.
  3. In line with (2) above, even though I no longer believe in God and I now deny the divinity of Jesus, Christ is still in me, I am still saved and I am Heaven-bound.

Yes? No?  Please use as few words as possible 😀

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27 minutes ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

Knott, I'm struggling a bit to understand here.  Let's see if I can restate your beliefs and you tell me if I'm understanding you or where I'm not.  I think your position is as follows...

 

  1. Christ entered me (I was born again) when I first believed.
  2. After that happened, nothing could change the fact that Christ lives in me and that I am saved.
  3. In line with (2) above, even though I no longer believe in God and I now deny the divinity of Jesus, Christ is still in me, I am still saved and I am Heaven-bound.

Yes? No?  Please use as few words as possible 😀

 

Yes, in accordance with the cross and the finished work, in christ. He accomplished what humanity could not do in it self, rid themselves of the sin nature. That is the salvation of man, not what you believe about it, "it is finished." That is the reason Paul said we believe unto salvation, no repentance involved for salvation.

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2 hours ago, Knott said:

 

I understand what you are saying, I do respect others beliefs. Sure I take a stand for my own and try to give an answer for what I believe as well. I'm not trying to convert or convince anyone of what I see, simply talking about it. I know it means nothing to others if it is something they don't see. Same with me it seems very odd for someone to say the scriptures are not inspired. But if that is what they believe first I can understand how they have got there. And second why the strong defence of it. I had most of the same questions as most I suppose but when I came to see Paul and what he was saying to the born again, I relooked at everything. Some of the posters have shared some really deep stuff and I did take a look to see what was being said, nothing was as deep as Paul addressing Christ in the the believer by a birthing. Those that have taken the time to reason out the scriptures really didn't go far because they are convinced the bible is not true, no reason for an arguement, the mind is made up. So most have claims to what I have said without the knowledge of what I'm even saying. Judging based on how they see Christianity. This is a message that you do not hear in mainstream religion. 

 

 

Some of us are trying to understand you but you are not making it easy.  Mostly my effort is out of curiosity.  I'm just trying to figure out where you fit on the spectrum of Christian theology.

 

 

Anyway, don't you think it is strange that a Christian would come to an ex-Christian website to talk about religion?  

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So who created God?

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