It's a bit of an essay

[Eowynesque]

This may be long. Hello, I’m new here and have been reading for a couple weeks. I don’t post much online, but this site has been really helpful to me since I found it and I wanted to share my story. This is the first that I have typed it out. Very few people around me understand what I am going through. I was raised in the Anabaptist tradition. Conservative, but not what I would consider fundamentalist. My church was filled with many reasonable, thoughtful and kind people, many of whom I still respect and appreciate a great deal. My disillusionment with Christianity came as a result of my devotion and not any particular abuses, though I did see and experience some. 

 

I took my faith seriously from about as early as one can. I have a distinct memory (I was probably around eight) of looking up at the sky from my front yard, imagining the trumpets and hoping that I would be included in the ones raptured. As an introverted and quiet child I struggled with the responsibility to share my faith, concerned that so many around me were destined for hell, yet feeling so uncomfortable and ill suited to do so. This was a common thread for the duration of my time as Christian; some personalities are just naturally “better” Christians. The Holy Spirit was of no help to me. 

 

My parents never forced faith on me, but the social pressure was all around me and I wasn’t about to be lukewarm-left-behind-I never knew you-believer. I began checking out the gamut of books in the church library around age twelve and I became a bit of a fundamentalist. I was baptized. I explored different strands of Christianity throughout my teen years, trying to find to most authentic expression of faith. I was frequently disappointed. I would lie awake at night, praying, crying, singing, desperate for this deep relationship with God that I was convinced others had. I would tire of the one-sidedness then beat myself up for failing to seek him and the vicious cycle repeated over and over. I memorized huge portions of the bible and while I treasured much of it, I wished some had never been written. Then I started dating and the shame from any sort intimate expression complicated my already frustrated faith. 

 

As a naïve teen I thought myself a complementarian, which was very much at odds with my independent streak. The dissonance was strong here. And then at eighteen I spent a couple months traveling and I felt the weight of the misogyny that I had internalized and rationalized. I wasn’t about to be kept from adventuring because I was a woman, dammit (nod to my username). And I started waking up to Christianity’s treatment of women and it was no longer ok. 

 

But the biggest blow of all was my Christian liberal arts college. I have nothing but praise for my professors. Something my bible professor said spurned me to investigate more of the Old Testament. I stumbled upon Apastasea’s blog and that was the beginning of the end. I prayed god you know my heart and I know you have the grace to see me through my questioning and doubts. It was almost all over that summer. I dove right into Christopher Hitchens (he stood out to me as someone I had once villianized), youtube (most notably Evid3nc3 and prplfox), Julia Sweeney, and so much science that I had avoided. I was a wreck—terrified and feeling so alone. 

 

Then classes resumed and I was drawn back in, yet extremely adverse to worship services. I just couldn’t let go yet. My faith had been so precious to me. Through my philosophy class I was exposed to Robin Collins’s fine tuning argument and it buffered my last shreds of faith. For a little while. The final assignment in my worldviews class was to describe our worldview and compare/constrast it to at least two others that we had studied. It would have been accurate to write my worldview is crumbling, but I didn’t and instead shored up my faith and landed in a nebulous postmodern Christian belief system. I included in this paper a sentiment I see frequently expressed here: “I wanted to subject my beliefs to serious criticism so that I could be sure I believed them because I had concluded that they were good and true and not because I had been raised in them. I often wondered how much of my beliefs were based on my psychology and upbringing. How fair is a teaching, then, that requires correct belief for salvation?”

 

Looking back, I think I knew it was only a matter of time. I couldn’t resist a bit of shoehorning to get a particular quote into my essay because I felt it so deeply. It was from the confession scene in Ingmar Bergman’s The Seventh Seal, when the knight expressed frustration at God’s apparent absence, asking, “Is it so terribly inconceivable to comprehend God with one’s senses? Why does he hide in a cloud of half-promises and unseen miracles? […] What will happen to us who want to believe, but cannot? […] Why can’t I kill God in me?  […] I want knowledge! Not faith, not assumptions, but knowledge. I want God to stretch out his hand, uncover his face and speak to me” (Ekelund & Bergman,1957).

 

I settled into a liberal Christian faith, but it felt so empty. I couldn’t relate to my fellow Christians like I used to. The common beliefs were gone. The 2016 election was the final straw. I still feel like I am in the process of deconverting yet I am comfortable describing myself as an atheist. I have so much to learn. I’m mourning all the good things that I lost. I’m suffering anxiety that my parents will soon learn the full truth and their hearts will break. I love them so much. I’m thrilled that the mental gymnastics are over. I’m furious that religion so easily destroys relationships. Writing this out has helped.

[Eowynesque]

21 minutes ago, Eowynesque said:

(I was probably around

This was supposed to read (I was probably around eight)

I should have typed out the number. Can we edit posts?

[disillusioned]

Hi Eowyn. Glad that you are here, and that you found your way out.

 

Regarding the parent issue, give it some time. Think carefully about how and when to tell them. It will be difficult, but if you approach it carefully, and they are reasonable people, it doesn't have to destroy your relationship.

 

Editing posts can be done once you lose the new member tag, which I think happens after 25 posts.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Welcome! So glad that you were able to see through the programming and find freedom.

 

Regarding your parents, your behavior and attitude will be the best examples that you have not been deceived and are on a path of wanton sinful destruction. And perhaps they have their own questions and doubts.

[Joshpantera]

21 hours ago, Eowynesque said:

This may be long. Hello, I’m new here and have been reading for a couple weeks. I don’t post much online, but this site has been really helpful to me since I found it and I wanted to share my story.

 

Welcome aboard! 

 

21 hours ago, Eowynesque said:

But the biggest blow of all was my Christian liberal arts college. I have nothing but praise for my professors. Something my bible professor said spurned me to investigate more of the Old Testament. I stumbled upon Apastasea’s blog and that was the beginning of the end. I prayed god you know my heart and I know you have the grace to see me through my questioning and doubts. It was almost all over that summer. I dove right into Christopher Hitchens (he stood out to me as someone I had once villianized), youtube (most notably Evid3nc3 and prplfox), Julia Sweeney, and so much science that I had avoided. I was a wreck—terrified and feeling so alone. 

 

You're among many folks who have gone on a similar voyage into the, at the time, unknown. It can be scary, yes.

 

21 hours ago, Eowynesque said:

I settled into a liberal Christian faith, but it felt so empty. I couldn’t relate to my fellow Christians like I used to. The common beliefs were gone. The 2016 election was the final straw. I still feel like I am in the process of deconverting yet I am comfortable describing myself as an atheist. I have so much to learn. I’m mourning all the good things that I lost. I’m suffering anxiety that my parents will soon learn the full truth and their hearts will break. I love them so much. I’m thrilled that the mental gymnastics are over. I’m furious that religion so easily destroys relationships. Writing this out has helped.

 

There's usually back and forth tug-o-wars that can go on, too. Part of the process. If you stick around we can get into deeper issues about deconversion, but one ideal is the notion of becoming completely immune to ever back sliding into christianity. It's intellectual atheism over unlearned, rebellion or irreligious-ness both of which can lead you right back to christianity when the rebellion wares off. It's a state of mind further down the road usually, but worth mentioning up front as an option on the table that has been obtained by several members here. You can go from newbie questioner to something like a master Jedi ex-christian over time. 

 

Again, welcome aboard and do participate in the forums.  

 

 

[Eowynesque]

33 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

 

There's usually back and forth tug-o-wars that can go on, too. Part of the process. If you stick around we can get into deeper issues about deconversion, but one ideal is the notion of becoming completely immune to ever back sliding into christianity. It's intellectual atheism over unlearned, rebellion or irreligious-ness both of which can lead you right back to christianity when the rebellion wares off. It's a state of mind further down the road usually, but worth mentioning up front as an option on the table that has been obtained by several members here. You can go from newbie questioner to something like a master Jedi ex-christian over time.

 

 

 

I do intend to stick around for a while and appreciate the advice. I would say that my intellectual atheism is rather cursory at the moment but sufficient for disbelief. My reading wish list is very long and the local libraries' selections are disappointing...you mean to tell me you have 10 copies of the new 50 shades and no Thomas Paine? It's going to take longer than I'd like. It seems to me that emotional reasons are what initiated my deconversion, but they are also why this is taking time for me. Intellectually I'm an atheist; emotionally my little toe is in the door. 

[TABA]

Hi Eowynesque!

 

I want to add my Welcome to all the others.  This is a great community and you can be totally yourself here. 

 

I think you know that deconversion is a process, not an event.  The deconverting mind seems to undergo a reprogramming over a period of time and it’s important that it play out and let the faith gradually lose its grip on your mind.  Most of us have found that immersing ourselves in this community helps greatly with the process.  Not only will your unbelief start to feel more ‘normal’ but you will gain other perspectives on Christianity that will show you the many ways in which it falls down under examination.  And maybe most importantly you will be among folks who ‘get’ you and support you. 

 

Ome measure of your progression through the deconversion process is the way you think of ‘atheism’.  Now while virtually none of us here believe in any gods whatsoever (except for the few Christian guests whom we encounter in the Lions Den), not all of us call ourselves atheists.  Most of us though would consider ourselves to be agnostic atheists, if you’re familiar with that term.  But where I’m going is this: when we were Christians and even in the early stages of deconversion, we were likely repelled by the idea of atheism and atheists.  You mentioned yourself once villianizing Hitchens - I did too!  But then at some point, somewhere after conceding that you are no longer a Christian, you concede that you have in fact become an atheist.  People have different levels of comfort with the word at that point: some of us avoid using the word, while others go get an atheist tatoo, t-shirt and bumper sticker!  Different strokes.  But my point is that when you reach this point it’s cause for both satisfaction and caution. Satisfaction because it’s a milestone that, once passed, usually makes the deconversion process feel better, more comfortable. But the caution is that as we become comfortable thinking of ourselves as atheists, we can forget what a terrifying, repulsive idea atheism is to most people, even to many irreligious people who haven’t thought things through as much.  So I wouldn’t drop the A-bomb on people outside this community - at least not for now.  Yes it’s important that more and more of us become openly atheist so the label loses its stigma.  But that’s not your job, not now.   The word can erect a solid wall between you and others, especially loved ones.  You are under no obligation to fully share your unbelief with anyone.  Many of us have found that it works better to gradually reveal our skepticism, our ‘questioning’, to those around us.  Often by the time we fully reveal our unbelief, people respond with a ‘yeah, I figured that’s where you were’.  Doing it that way let’s them see that not much about us has changed - before they realize we are unbelievers.  

 

Sorry for being so wordy!  We’re all here for you as you continue your journey. 

[Knott]

I was browsing and came across this site. Thanks for having me, I have been in other forums from time to time and my experience has been worse than when I darkened the door of the religious building.

 What struck me was when I saw the name ex Christian, my first thought was; there is no such thing, so I had to take a look and I'll admit it is quite fascinating to read through. It took me a minute to sign up but I did.

I don't go to a building anymore, but I have been born again since 1987. Looking forward to reading more, Thanks

[TABA]

1 hour ago, Knott said:

I was browsing and came across this site. Thanks for having me, I have been in other forums from time to time and my experience has been worse than when I darkened the door of the religious building.

 What struck me was when I saw the name ex Christian, my first thought was; there is no such thing, so I had to take a look and I'll admit it is quite fascinating to read through. It took me a minute to sign up but I did.

I don't go to a building anymore, but I have been born again since 1987. Looking forward to reading more, Thanks

 

Hi Knott, welcome!  We’d be interested to learn more about you, but this is Eowynesque’s Introduction thread, so it might be better to start your own topic.  I assume by now you know that being Ex-Christian is absolutely a thing!

[Eowynesque]

4 hours ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

Ome measure of your progression through the deconversion process is the way you think of ‘atheism’.  Now while virtually none of us here believe in any gods whatsoever (except for the few Christian guests whom we encounter in the Lions Den), not all of us call ourselves atheists.  Most of us though would consider ourselves to be agnostic atheists, if you’re familiar with that term.  But where I’m going is this: when we were Christians and even in the early stages of deconversion, we were likely repelled by the idea of atheism and atheists.  You mentioned yourself once villianizing Hitchens - I did too!  But then at some point, somewhere after conceding that you are no longer a Christian, you concede that you have in fact become an atheist.  People have different levels of comfort with the word at that point: some of us avoid using the word, while others go get an atheist tatoo, t-shirt and bumper sticker!  Different strokes.  But my point is that when you reach this point it’s cause for both satisfaction and caution. Satisfaction because it’s a milestone that, once passed, usually makes the deconversion process feel better, more comfortable. But the caution is that as we become comfortable thinking of ourselves as atheists, we can forget what a terrifying, repulsive idea atheism is to most people, even to many irreligious people who haven’t thought things through as much.  So I wouldn’t drop the A-bomb on people outside this community - at least not for now.  Yes it’s important that more and more of us become openly atheist so the label loses its stigma.  But that’s not your job, not now.   The word can erect a solid wall between you and others, especially loved ones.  You are under no obligation to fully share your unbelief with anyone.  Many of us have found that it works better to gradually reveal our skepticism, our ‘questioning’, to those around us.  Often by the time we fully reveal our unbelief, people respond with a ‘yeah, I figured that’s where you were’.  Doing it that way let’s them see that not much about us has changed - before they realize we are unbelievers.  

 

Sorry for being so wordy!  We’re all here for you as you continue your journey. 

 

When I was a True Christian TM the world seemed so secular and now I'm finding out that's not entirely the case, at least not where I live. I was recently sharing how I stopped going to church with a coworker. I knew she didn't go to church and I expected some degree of yeah me too but she proceeded to tell me how she wanted to start going again (seems to happen a lot when people start having kids). I decided to be more careful with expressing skepticism and expecting reciprocity. Everyone seems religious now.

 

I did just tell someone that Im an agnostic atheist (speaking to an agnostic friend). I can understand how the terms feel different to people but it seems like semantics to me. Aren't both saying 'in the absence of good evidence I don't know'?

[TABA]

1 hour ago, Eowynesque said:

 

 I was recently sharing how I stopped going to church with a coworker. I knew she didn't go to church and I expected some degree of yeah me too but she proceeded to tell me how she wanted to start going again (seems to happen a lot when people start having kids).  I decided to be more careful with expressing skepticism and expecting reciprocity. Everyone seems religious now.

 

 

That's one of my pet peeves: people who have little or no faith and little or no time for religion then turn around and indoctrinate their own children.  They probably equate being good with going to church.  I think this is likely to change as unbelievers become more visible and are seen to be normal, generally good people.  Nothing wrong with you expressing skepticism (as long as you don't do it by ridiculing them).  It might be a good idea to say something like "I'm convinced that we can raise good kids without religion".  Might make them think, just maybe...

 

1 hour ago, Eowynesque said:

I did just tell someone that Im an agnostic atheist (speaking to an agnostic friend). I can understand how the terms feel different to people but it seems like semantics to me. Aren't both saying 'in the absence of good evidence I don't know'?

 

 

Well at the end of the day they are just semantics, just labels.  But sometimes labels are helpful in clarifying things.  I think many here would agree with my use of these terms: the first work, 'agnostic' (or alternatively 'gnostic') describes degree of knowledge or certainty.  'Theist' or 'atheist' describes belief or unbelief in a divinity. 

 

So an agnostic atheist like me might say "I can't be certain but I find none of the gods believable so I don't worship any". 

 

An agnostic theist might say "I think there probably is a god" and they may or may not worship.

 

A gnostic theist might say "I know there is a god" and a gnostic atheist might say "I know there is no god".

 

In any case, people choose to emphasize one word or the other, depending on their comfort level or even who they're talking to.  A person who calls themself just an "agnostic" may have rejected god beliefs but just prefers to use the word "agnostic" - or they might be somebody who just hasn't thought about it enough to come down on one side or the other.  I was one of those in my twenties, but then I went back to Christianity.  But later on I thought more and rejected Christianity so now I'm an agnostic atheist.

 

Clear as mud?

[Eowynesque]

9 minutes ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

Clear as mud?

 

Thank you for that.

 

Many people, my former self included, seem to equate atheism with anti-theism when, from a definions standpoint, atheism and agnosticism are much more alike. I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that when people avoid using the label atheist when it accurately describes their mindset it makes the terms seem more negative than it is. I do see the usefulness of the various labels and I should stop here because I'm sounding like I have a beef with what people call themselves and I don't. 

[TABA]

47 minutes ago, Eowynesque said:

 

I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that when people avoid using the label atheist when it accurately describes their mindset it makes the terms seem more negative than it is. 

 

 

Yes,  I agree with that.  The more of us that identify as atheists, the less sinister it will seem. Especially if we are seen to be normal, happy, well adjusted people.  That would be a threat to Christianity.  The True Believers won’t budge, but the Average Joe may say “Hey these atheists are pretty nice people, and they don’t care who I sleep with and they don’t think less of me if I don’t go to Church”.  That would be a very good thing. 

[Geezer]

Welcome Eowynesque.I'm certain you will find this site helpful in your new journey. 

[Knott]

7 hours ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

Hi Knott, welcome!  We’d be interested to learn more about you, but this is Eowynesque’s Introduction thread, so it might be better to start your own topic.  I assume by now you know that being Ex-Christian is absolutely a thing!

 

Yea thanks, I guess I was reading along and thought I was doing my own deal just noticed haha

[disillusioned]

10 hours ago, Knott said:

I was browsing and came across this site. Thanks for having me, I have been in other forums from time to time and my experience has been worse than when I darkened the door of the religious building.

 What struck me was when I saw the name ex Christian, my first thought was; there is no such thing, so I had to take a look and I'll admit it is quite fascinating to read through. It took me a minute to sign up but I did.

I don't go to a building anymore, but I have been born again since 1987. Looking forward to reading more, Thanks

 

Knott, welcome. I hope you stick around, even if we ultimately disagree about Christianity. Looking forward to interacting with you more elsewhere.

[disillusioned]

18 hours ago, Eowynesque said:

Intellectually I'm an atheist; emotionally my little toe is in the door. 

 

This is very, very normal. It can take a long time for emotions to catch up to the intellect.

 

Regarding the labels issue, I also struggled with this for a while after my deconversion. I spent a long time (years!) refusing to call myself an atheist, because so many people don't really understand what the term means. I just always insisted that I didn't believe in God. Finally, though, I just got sick of making a distinction. I still think that labels are often counterproductive, but so is refusing to use them if they obviously fit. I'm an atheist because I don't believe in God. I'm an agnostic atheist because I don't know that God doesn't exist. I'm an ignostic because I'm not even sure anymore what the term "God" is supposed to mean. But all of this is beside the point. For practical purposes, I'm just an atheist.

[Joshpantera]

5 hours ago, Knott said:

 

Yea thanks, I guess I was reading along and thought I was doing my own deal just noticed haha

 

Welcome to you too! 

 

 

[Knott]

I have a question, I'm curious about how atheists come to believe in no god. I'm not real versed on atheism. Is it science, study, Christians being so damn goofy, all the above, ect.

[LogicalFallacy]

On 5/25/2018 at 4:46 AM, Knott said:

I have a question, I'm curious about how atheists come to believe in no god. I'm not real versed on atheism. Is it science, study, Christians being so damn goofy, all the above, ect.

 

Knott, this is a question best put in the Lions Den. This section is reserved for de converting people to seek help not face questions.

 

But to get a start with your question read this thread: 

 

Also your profile should have that "believe in God badge".

 

Whose in charge of Introductions?

 

@buffettphan @SkipNChurch Pretty please can one of you shift the post above of Knotts and mine to the Lion's den in a new thread. Thanks.

 

(Unlike God, when you call on the Mods something actually happens  )

[LogicalFallacy]

Welcome to Ex C @Eowynesque

 

It sounds like you've left Christianity intellectually, but still leaving it emotionally. Often the emotional side can take much longer. Give it time, never be afraid to ask for help and support here.

 

We have live chat rooms available and many knowledgeable members with lifetimes of experience between them.

 

Regarding not wanting to hurt your parents. This has to be one of the most common struggles that people deconverting face. It's the fear of hurting those they love, usually coupled with a fear of rejection. One thing that helped me when I was facing the prospect of telling my parents and friends that I no longer believed in God was that we are not responsible for how people react, or what emotions they take on.

 

We can mention that we've switched diets, like classical not opera and many other things, but mention you don't believe in God and all hell seems to break loose. Pardon the pun.

 

My advice is to tell them on your terms. Gently but firmly. Each person's situation is different so if you wanted specific answers feel free to ask.

 

Best of luck, and know that you are not alone.

 

LF

[Eowynesque]

3 hours ago, Knott said:

I have a question, I'm curious about how atheists come to believe in no god. I'm not real versed on atheism. Is it science, study, Christians being so damn goofy, all the above, ect.

 

I can only speak for myself...all the above. The frustrations I had with my faith (unanswered prayer, christians not being particularly wise or loving despite the promises of the Holy Spirit, church starting to feel like a social club where only some fit in, the OT god, one sided relationship,etc) left me to be very open to questioning it. Studying mythology, ancient culture, history, science and archeology is what led to my loss of belief.

[florduh]

On 5/23/2018 at 2:00 AM, Eowynesque said:

I’m suffering anxiety that my parents will soon learn the full truth and their hearts will break.

Welcome to the (mostly) rational world!

 

Regarding parents and anyone else who might be "disappointed" or heartbroken or otherwise inconvenienced by your honest opinion or conclusion; how they react to a situation is not up to you. Those you love are entitled to know and love the real you. Or not, depending on how indoctrinated they are.

[buffettphan]

 

7 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

(Unlike God, when you call on the Mods something actually happens  )

 

 

We do at least try, but admit we are not always omni-everything ALL of the time.  

    

 

Cheers! 

[disillusioned]

.... Not criticising, but this is Eowyn's thread. Why is it in the den?

I get that Knott's contributions may merit the den, but Eowyn's introduction? Really?