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Riven

What question could Christianity never answer for you?

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On 5/28/2018 at 1:13 PM, Fuego said:

3. Where did the offspring of Adam and Eve find mates?

 Oh! Can't believe I missed this one.

I actually asked this question early on!  So, evidently they boinked their brothers and sisters. So, incest was OK for a while, until it wasn't. I won't go into all the "genetic diversity" that didn't happen doing it that way...  :banghead:

I'm not sure what's sadder: the answer, or the fact that I accepted it.

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37 minutes ago, Riven said:

@Margee

This is the reason that I have a blinding fury for the "easy peasy" brush off from current believers of, "If you walk away, you were never really a believer." Who are they to judge what my "walk" was?

 

It's a logic error that I get so sick of. On the one hand, "Only god can know the heart" is trotted out and used when needed, but at the same time the believer says, "I'm qualified to judge you, and say that you never believed." I'm not sure they see the flaw there. Or, they don't care. I guess it's much more frightening (to them) to think that you could be "all in," and yet walk away. It's much easier to dismiss you. That dismissal is gut wrenching to those like me, who tried their hearts out for years.

 

 

I was told the other day that I'm not to blame for the fact that I lost my belief, as the devil is to blame for that. Of course it wasn't said but it was implied that the devil now runs my life. 

I don't see how such logic can not fracture the basis of this friendship. I am not willing to take the judgement any longer. I'm only willing to surround myself with people who accept me without judgement clouding their vision. And yes it hurts, much more than I thought it would. It leaves me no space to share my life and who I have become. 

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Another question: "Why are churches so intent on getting money and making buildings instead of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked?"

 

I always felt like the real believers were outside the buildings. I even talked to a small group that was picketing a church, saying that the church was far more concerned with money and nice cars than in Jesus. I told them I agreed with them. The pastor there was decked out in multiple rings, and had a cadre of business cronies surrounding him at all times to keep the riff-raff like me away. The church emphasized tithing and if you questioned at all, their reply was "I think you'd be happier somewhere else". They wanted controllable gullible sheep, nothing else. And they got rather a lot of them.

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4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I was told the other day that I'm not to blame for the fact that I lost my belief, as the devil is to blame for that. Of course it wasn't said but it was implied that the devil now runs my life. 

I don't see how such logic can not fracture the basis of this friendship. I am not willing to take the judgement any longer. I'm only willing to surround myself with people who accept me without judgement clouding their vision. And yes it hurts, much more than I thought it would. It leaves me no space to share my life and who I have become. 

 

Good for you.

 

Christian Ringwraiths abound.  Avoid them.  Spend your time with wholesome and honest pursuits, explorations and journeys.  There are numerous ones available, none of which will cause any harm.  Making the transition is easier than you think.

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On 6/12/2018 at 3:40 PM, 1989 said:

I've always wondered why there's all the drama.  In the End Days all sorts of bad things happen, then we have a winner (God).  Why doesn't God just show up and say, "Boo!  I win." and then everyone is happy and peace reigns across the world.  No, there has to be signs and prophecies and fire (lots of fire), Jesus with a sword in his mouth, famine and death, you name it.  Then Satan, who's thrown in a bottomless pit or something, turns into a dragon and fights an unwinnable war before being locked away forever.  Again.  Why?  Who knows?  It's all already been won, but we have to sit through a predictable sequel, possibly after more fire and death.  Probably after fire and death.  It's just not a thing without fire and death.  Seriously, what gives?

 

Hey, God and Jesus just can't help it if they are drama queens! Dontcha juss figger that they wuz born that way?

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20 hours ago, Fuego said:

Another question: "Why are churches so intent on getting money and making buildings instead of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked?"

 

I always felt like the real believers were outside the buildings. I even talked to a small group that was picketing a church, saying that the church was far more concerned with money and nice cars than in Jesus. I told them I agreed with them. The pastor there was decked out in multiple rings, and had a cadre of business cronies surrounding him at all times to keep the riff-raff like me away. The church emphasized tithing and if you questioned at all, their reply was "I think you'd be happier somewhere else". They wanted controllable gullible sheep, nothing else. And they got rather a lot of them.

 

The only thing churches want less than that, is a hurt Christian who arrives emotionally damaged from another Christian church. They don't want to deal with the fallout. They'd rather have starry-eyed new converts, who are thrilled to work for free for the church, and give their hard earned money too. Best racket around. Free workers, and they pay the church too! Of course, it's all wrapped up in a neat little god-package that you are doing the work "for the Lord." In fact, if you ever think you are being asked to do too much, they say that your relationship with the Lord is the problem, not their church. I mean, we're supposed to "count it all joy...." right?

 

End of rant.

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9 hours ago, Tsathoggua9 said:

 

Hey, God and Jesus just can't help it if they are drama queens! Dontcha juss figger that they wuz born that way?

 

I guess when you and your son are the same person...

 

And people think that my neck of the woods people's family trees have no branches.

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8 hours ago, Riven said:

Why are churches so intent on getting money and making buildings instead of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked?"

 Because pastors build their little empires in the name of Yahweh. The image of the Baptist pastor of a fair size church sticks in my mind - it bothered me so then (over 20 years ago) that it's still clearly etched in my mind. The congregation of over 2000 was standing to sing one of those inane songs emblazoned on the overhead screen. I was standing in the balcony scanning people's backs. That's when I caught the pastor (looking more like a business man than a priest) in the front row closest to the stage turning around with such a look of pride as he surveyed his flock - like " this is all mine! I have arrived!" He struck me as an immensely insincere, arrogant career-climbing so and so. ( The ones with the mega-churches are god's winners) I got the feeling that he regarded my husband and me one of his flock and tithers - his salary guarantors. One of his members was a less known pro golfer who from time to time invited the pastor to tournaments where the pastor could "minister" to other christian pro golfers who were of course excused from attending church on Sundays  because they were busy hitting a little white ball for obscene amounts of money. But that was okay, because they could "bless" the church and the pastor with that money! Obscene, isn't it?

 

 

 

 

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On 5/29/2018 at 8:38 PM, TruthSeeker0 said:

Why are we all supposedly evil and sinning, because once upon a time, an apple was supposedly eaten from a tree? Even if that were the case and the transgression happened, why is one transgression inherited by everyone that ever existed?

 

The answer some people give to this is that any human would have done the same thing. In which case god's creation wasn't perfect and humans already had the "sin nature" they supposedly only got as punishment. So it doesn't make sense regardless. 

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On 6/15/2018 at 11:17 PM, JenniferG said:

 I got the feeling that he regarded my husband and me one of his flock and tithers - his salary guarantors. One of his members was a less known pro golfer who from time to time invited the pastor to tournaments where the pastor could "minister" to other christian pro golfers who were of course excused from attending church on Sundays  because they were busy hitting a little white ball for obscene amounts of money. But that was okay, because they could "bless" the church and the pastor with that money! Obscene, isn't it?

 

Extremely obscene. And, talk about a scene emblazoned in my mind.... here's my memory: I was a new Christian, in my church for just about 6 months. I knew some choir people, but that was about it. I had met and was dating a TV personality that was very well known. We had been seeing each other about 3 months privately (mostly not going out in public and keeping it low key) and it was getting serious enough to attend each others churches. When he came with me to mine that first time we walked in and sat down. The senior pastor (who had never spoken to me up to this point) made a friggin' bee line to where I was sitting and said a quick hello to me (he didn't know my name, but knew I went there from me being on stage in choir/worship team), and then turned his attention to my guest. Awkward. They talked for like 5 minutes until it was time for service to start. I was a bit miffed, but chalked it up to his high profile. But amazingly, after that I was invited to the senior pastor's home for dinner, his wife sought out a friendship with me, and I was suddenly the pastors new "discipleship" project. This lasted until the guy and I broke up. Then I went back to being someone he didn't pay attention to. I'll never forgot that moment where he made the bee line to me when he first spotted my famous date with me that first day. UGH. 💰

 

18 hours ago, HisGrace said:

 

The answer some people give to this is that any human would have done the same thing. In which case god's creation wasn't perfect and humans already had the "sin nature" they supposedly only got as punishment. So it doesn't make sense regardless. 

 

Exactly. So many holes in that story you could drive a truck through it. Even as a Christian, I never believed that (although I never advertised it either). Add the talking snake, and puts the crazy over the top.

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The thing that started me on the journey out of Christianity was: Tithing

I had never been a thither. I did tithe for short periods, but it just gnawed at me and I hated giving my money away. I feel shallow and "scrooge-like" saying that, as I usually try to be generous with my money when it comes to legitimate needs for friends and family, but tithing just never sat well with me. I started researching it because I started thinking about how I was taught that the old law was no longer in effect since Jesus' death on the cross, because of the new covenant of Jesus' death. I realized that there is no mention anywhere in the NT after Jesus' death about tithing. Paul mentions giving, but not tithing. I started to research tithing and I found a Master's thesis that someone wrote about tithing and it was very eye opening. I learned that there is actually more than one tithe (there are three) that the Jews were required to pay and that essentially, they all actually had to pay 23.333% of their income and not simply 10 percent.

Not one pastor ever mentioned this stuff, indicating to me that they never bothered to study it, and were merely just mimicking what they were taught. This was a problem for me.

 

As I started to realize that tithing was nothing more than a sham, I also started seeing that, just as I mentioned before, they simply picked something from the OT that benefited them and made it "still a law" so that we needed to keep doing it in order to please God. But this made no sense because if it was beneficial in OT times and its still beneficial now, why would this not be the case for all of the other aspects of the law that we don't bother to follow? Shellfish - bad then, good now? Tattoos - bad then, good now? Stoning people for trivial stuff - good then, bad now? If God never changes, and his law is perfect, why is most of it no longer applicable today? And secondly, what formula do you use to determine which OT laws still apply today, and which no longer apply? All of this simply became too much for me to reconcile and the cognitive dissonance was too great to overcome that I ended up on my path out of Christianity.

 

edit for run on sentences

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5 hours ago, Storm said:

 If God never changes, and his law is perfect, why is most of it no longer applicable today? And secondly, what formula do you use to determine which OT laws still apply today, and which no longer apply? All of this simply became too much for me to reconcile and the cognitive dissonance was too great to overcome that I ended up on my path out of Christianity.

 

It's amazing when you think about it that way, right? Incest was OK, until it wasn't. Polygamy was OK, until it wasn't. Concubines were OK, until they weren't. And the way Christianity explains this away as "cultural at the time" is stunning. They act like on the one hand that we should excuse the Bible on the grounds "that was the culture at the time" but at the same time, their own holy books says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16.

 

It's actually hilarious to see that they don't even get how they hold two competing ideas as truth at the same time.

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2 minutes ago, Riven said:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16. 

In an even more ironic twist, the only "scriptures" that existed at the time this verse was written was the Old Testament...

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@Storm that seriously wins the forum today!  :17:

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5 hours ago, Storm said:

In an even more ironic twist, the only "scriptures" that existed at the time this verse was written was the Old Testament...

 

Gives insight as to how fucked up and violent people were 2k + years ago...

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6 hours ago, Riven said:

 

...

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16.

...

 

According to Bart Ehrman, among other Biblical scholars, 2 Timothy is forged (in Ehrman's meaning of the term "forged"), not written by Paul but someone else, most likely a follower of earlier writings attributed to Paul.

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18 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

According to Bart Ehrman, among other Biblical scholars, 2 Timothy is forged (in Ehrman's meaning of the term "forged"), not written by Paul but someone else, most likely a follower of earlier writings attributed to Paul.

 

I thought about that yesterday.... it's like I'm in this whole new world where I'm learning that some of the most quoted scriptures have spotty origins. I go back and forth between feeling stupid, getting angry about it and then happy that I'm free from it.

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1 hour ago, Riven said:

 

I thought about that yesterday.... it's like I'm in this whole new world where I'm learning that some of the most quoted scriptures have spotty origins. I go back and forth between feeling stupid, getting angry about it and then happy that I'm free from it.

 

Those feeling are familiar to us all, I think...

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Why should I hate on gay people?

What exactly is the benefit of no sex/no kissing before marriage?

Why in the world would you frown upon people who wear make-up?

What's wrong about dating? And masturbation?

What made you believe a high neckline is the way to heaven?

Why exactly do I have to have a spiritual gift?

Why, oh why do wives have to submit to their husbands? Whyyyyyy? Because their brain is supposedly smaller?

So many questions.

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20 hours ago, Riven said:

 

I thought about that yesterday.... it's like I'm in this whole new world where I'm learning that some of the most quoted scriptures have spotty origins. I go back and forth between feeling stupid, getting angry about it and then happy that I'm free from it.

It gets much easier, when you realize the Bible is just a book written by men way back when, to be able to control the lives of others.

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Another one:

Why are certain Christians so preoccupied with praying to Jesus, loving Jesus, finding out what HE wants for their lives and praying for a parking space... but then they don't follow his example? Hello.... anybody out there? Jesus hung out with exactly those people that they wouldn't even look at when walking past them. Immigrants, foreigners, prostitutes, criminals, single mothers, the divorced. And I don't think he cared about people's sexual orientation as much as they do. Dear "Christians"... open your eyes!

Sorry... stuff like this makes me SO angry.

 

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2 hours ago, offtheromanroad said:

Another one:

Why are certain Christians so preoccupied with praying to Jesus, loving Jesus, finding out what HE wants for their lives and praying for a parking space... but then they don't follow his example? Hello.... anybody out there? Jesus hung out with exactly those people that they wouldn't even look at when walking past them. Immigrants, foreigners, prostitutes, criminals, single mothers, the divorced. And I don't think he cared about people's sexual orientation as much as they do. Dear "Christians"... open your eyes!

Sorry... stuff like this makes me SO angry.

 

 

I hear you @offtheromanroad

 

This is actually one of the core issues that caused me to walk out the door. The very people that Jesus hung out with are demonized as "the other" in Western Christianity. It's sickening. I have trouble getting past the rage some days. Of course, I'm fresh off the turnip truck as they say, so I'm still raw.

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Why is God always labeled as a "just" God when he does categorically unjust things? Is He just simply because He says so? Can we trust that judgement? Is He perhaps lying or manipulating us?

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3 hours ago, justaskingquestions said:

 Is He perhaps lying or manipulating us?

Now you're on to it. See my previous quote above.

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On 5/29/2018 at 6:42 AM, mymistake said:

I waited my whole life for God to answer and the only answer I ever got from God was wrong.

Oh mymistake you are one of my favorite peeps on this site.  :kiss:

 

Oh and me too on the wrong career!

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