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Goodbye Jesus

Climate Change Lecture by Dr Jim White


LogicalFallacy

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27 minutes ago, Burnedout said:

 

Funny, but you avoided what I said about people in my area who live at the beach.  They have to get an elevation certificate to get homeowners insurance if they are in a flood prone area when it storms.  No change in sea level.  It appears you have been lied to by the climate alarmist institutions. But hey, you can be delusionally idealistic.  You will eventually grow out of that.  

 

Does the elevation certificate say the sea level hasn't risen, or are they merely considered to be a safe elevation?

My prediction of course is in the coming decades this will change. But the rise isn't going to go up bang in one day. If you think it is then you must also think that dogs give birth to cats, and if you think that might I point you to Answers in Genesis for your science material :D 

 

I also predict that people like you, even if there is visible rise, and noticeable weather events you'll simply put it down to whatever.

 

PS I noticed the 'rise very noticeable very quickly" comment from you. No, not necessarily. Don't you read the actual science literature rather than listening to Al Gore? What am I saying? Of course you don't. If you did you would know that not all areas rise at the same rate, or by the same about.

 

27 minutes ago, Burnedout said:

Yes, you do have problems.  Your government thinks it is OK to steal money from you and the rest of your countrymen and women and call it taxation to make you think it is good for you.  Kind of like a child rapist telling a child it's good. 

 

I'm sorry, I'm not getting on your pet hobby of tax is theft. We've hashed this out before.

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27 minutes ago, Burnedout said:

"Yes, you do have problems.  Your government thinks it is OK to steal money from you and the rest of your countrymen and women and call it taxation to make you think it is good for you.  Kind of like a child rapist telling a child it's good. "

 

What an utterly stupid analogy. Yes, money for things such as universal health care should be compared to the claim that rape is good.

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5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Does the elevation certificate say the sea level hasn't risen, or are they merely considered to be a safe elevation?

     All shall be revealed.  The Florida Elevation website gizmo.

 

          mwc

 

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So this is just wikipedia,  not a scientific paper,  but let's start small,  hmm?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise

 

Note that global average sea levels have been rising.  Note also that not every location has seen sea level rise. These are just facts.

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On 8/28/2018 at 2:08 PM, disillusioned said:

But that is the claim of every media outlet and scientist who speak publicly about alarm.

 

On 8/28/2018 at 2:08 PM, disillusioned said:

It is absolutely false to claim that all climate scientists are working towards the underlying agenda of alarm.

 

I was addressing those who speak publicly about alarm, not the whole of climate scientists in the field of climatology. That would be false, but again, that false claim hasn't been made to begin with as far as I'm aware so it's a non issue. And judging by your response it looks like you agree with the sentiment that I did express. The scientists who are speaking out about alarm, as the media are doing, is who we're looking at here. And as you pointed out they are diverging from science and going into personal opinion. 

 

So back to the point. They are making a bad name for science to the armchair general public. They are not being denounced by scientists as NOT speaking on behalf of science itself enough to where the general public can easily differentiate between all this personal opinion and real science. That's the thrust of why science itself is coming under doubt with the public. And why the arguments people are subjected to are generally focused in on alarm verses not alarm.

 

It's little wonder that a lot people don't hardly take any of this seriously anymore. It's been a three ring circus for decades. And having politicized it only made that worse, only brought down public opinion even more. Not a lot of people are reading academic pdf's on climate change, they're listening what ever personalities stand up on camera speaking personal opinion towards alarmist views or not alarmist views. And personal opinion is driving down public opinion as it turns out. The whole this is about as counter productive as it could be. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, disillusioned said:

So this is just wikipedia,  not a scientific paper,  but let's start small,  hmm?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise

 

Note that global average sea levels have been rising.  Note also that not every location has seen sea level rise. These are just facts.

 

 

If we loose all the polar ice caps, the maximum sea level rise takes place, the world as a whole doesn't change all that much. There's a few coastal losses and worst is probably the US gulf and SE coast. Some low lying area's in India and China and elsewhere around the globe. Although with the slow nature of sea level rise everyone would obviously have the ability to relocate over the course of generations upon generations.

 

It's interesting to visualize the worst case scenarios when analyzing things like sea level rise. The issue of relocation over time is something that humanity will face regardless of whether or not we do or change anything. It will naturally happen some time or another regardless. 

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1 hour ago, Burnedout said:

 

Ok, here is the link to explain what an elevation certificate covers.  https://www.fema.gov/media-library/assets/documents/160 

 

https://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/1520628026490-0fb72da80ac68cafe17394f6b5f50af1/FF086033_ElevCert_RE_1Mar2018.pdf  This is the form that you must have if the insurance company requires you to get it buy a homeowners policy.  If your home or business building is near a flood plane, that can be freshwater from lakes, rivers, or just a low lying area that is prone to flash floods, and salt water areas, such as the beach or a bay/inlet (where there are Multitudes of homes who have their lot backing up to the water and that is ocean water).  There are many who have boat docks on the water at their home.  If the insurance companies were convinced the water was going to rise, there would be so many homes non renewed on their insurance, it would make your head spin.  I don't know about your country, but insurance companies here are not in the business of losing money.  If they think there is even half a reason that the water would rise like you are suggesting, they would pull out.  They haven't.  

 
 

 

Here there is talk of insurance companies refusing to cover sea side properties citing rising waters and resulting damage from storms as the reason. Maybe your insurance companies are happy to take money as long as their risk models work out? Or are you sure they don't have clauses with exclude specific damage ("Acts of God") Or specifically excluding damage as a result of "rising sea levels"? The fact houses are being insured is not a good argument against rising sea levels. Lets face its, regardless of insurance companies the sea level is either rising or it isn't correct? It's like regardless of your belief, when you jump off a building you with either fall to the ground or not.

 

BO, can you provide 10-20 years of elevation certificates for a property close to the water in an area where rise is predicted (If possible) It would be interesting to see if they differ over the years.

 

Quote

Wimp. 

 

No, I'm just not discussing an entirely different topic that has nothing to do with science in the science forum. We've seen your arguments, we've seen others arguments. Experts from both sides have been quoted extensively. No need to rehash in what can be a politically charged topic in its own right (Meaning GW).

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10 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

 

If we loose all the polar ice caps, the maximum sea level rise takes place, the world as a whole doesn't change all that much. There's a few coastal losses and worst is probably the US gulf and SE coast. Some low lying area's in India and China and elsewhere around the globe. Although with the slow nature of sea level rise everyone would obviously have the ability to relocate over the course of generations upon generations.

 

It's interesting to visualize the worst case scenarios when analyzing things like sea level rise. The issue of relocation over time is something that humanity will face regardless of whether or not we do or change anything. It will naturally happen some time or another regardless. 

 

So are you trying to tell me we arent all gonna die in a massive flood event? 

 

Thats not good news for GW eschatologists. 

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39 minutes ago, midniterider said:

So are you trying to tell me we arent all gonna die in a massive flood event? 

 

Thats not good news for GW eschatologists. 

 

Well damn! You mean this won't result in a global flood!? Shit! My doomsday cult I was planning is doomed. I am going to re read the scientific literature about predictions of massive global flooding and meters sea level rise next year...

 

...oh wait there isn't any :P 

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10 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Well damn! You mean this won't result in a global flood!? Shit! My doomsday cult I was planning is doomed. I am going to re read the scientific literature about predictions of massive global flooding and meters sea level rise next year...

 

...oh wait there isn't any :P 

 

Then the issue is kind of a non-issue, isn't it? The fierce debate about the reality of GW is rather unwarranted. Except by keyboard warriors like ourselves. :)

 

It's good to keep it on the back burner of course, and make good ecological choices such as mass production of the electric car, the Ford Salmon.

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25 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Then the issue is kind of a non-issue, isn't it? The fierce debate about the reality of GW is rather unwarranted. Except by keyboard warriors like ourselves. :)

 

It's good to keep it on the back burner of course, and make good ecological choices such as mass production of the electric car, the Ford Salmon.

 

I would disagree as there is a sizable portion of the population, who like BO, reject the reality. This group includs politicians who (rather scarily) make decisions based on their feelies rather than reality.  And this I think can lead to a fuck them, fuck it, and fuck the world attitude.  So pointing out 1) what the science actually says (As opposed to the strawman they like to tear down) , and 2) What sort of things we can do. (Salmon car for example :D ) is important.

 

But that's me... apparently I'm a religious zealot for caring if people believe that which isn't concordant with reality.

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17 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Well damn! You mean this won't result in a global flood!? Shit! My doomsday cult I was planning is doomed. I am going to re read the scientific literature about predictions of massive global flooding and meters sea level rise next year...

 

...oh wait there isn't any :P 

 

I knew you were up to something more than just the, "raw data!"  

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19 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

So are you trying to tell me we arent all gonna die in a massive flood event? 

 

Thats not good news for GW eschatologists. 

 

While no one's claiming a global flood that I know of, the general thrust of people looking at the permanent ice sheets off Greenland and speaking of sea level rise is aimed at calling attention to flooding factors involved with sea level rise. There's no reason to even discuss it otherwise. And it's not really taken through all the way to the most extreme conclusion when people are discussing sea level rise, which, would be that all the ice caps melt and we have maximum sea level rise. 

 

If there's no pressing threat to the globe because of ice caps melting either in part or even in full, but rather simple relocating maybe one state inland over the course of how many years it would take for all of the earth's ice caps to melt, rising sea level .inches at a time, what's the big deal exactly? Where's the alarm that those who venture into alarming opinions about something like Greenland can point to? 

 

But even then, a total loss of all existing ice, will that ever even happen?

 

Will all of the earth's polar ice melt any time soon? Probably not. For all we know the cycle could reverse and the arctic permanent ice could make a come back again leaving people perplexed to try and explain it. Any number of things could happen. It's just good to know that no matter what people think right now, the world may not be as bad for future generations as many people would like to project. I figure at least some people ought to root for the possibility that things will balance out like they always do and that life will continue to find a way, even human life. 

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Why give a fuck if the oceans and the atmosphere are warming? Why care about the change to ecosystems, food webs, and the ripple effect that has among species? Why give a fuck about the impact on sea life, more drought, more severe weather, wildfires, and species going extinct because there is no more habitat for them? Why care about using more fossil fuels to cool ourselves down because the place is heating up, therefore heating it up more? Why give a fuck about heat waves, more bad ozone and their deadly effects on vulnerable humans with health conditions? Why give a fuck about the spread of infectious diseases like malaria and lyme disease? Why care about water shortages, less snow melt, shrinking drinking water sources and crop irrigation? Why give a fuck about four seasons in the northern hemisphere, who the hell likes them anyway?

 

Just give a fuck about yourselves, ok?  Don't let those scientists screw with your head or your government or government policies. The only thing that matters is that you don't pay a penny more for anyone else or anything other than yourselves.

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Good post Josh. 

 

So even though the politicians may mismanage things, at some point when water is nipping at their toes in the decades to come, it will be an undeniable fact and the mismanagers will have no choice but to adapt us all to solve the problem. 

 

 

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On 8/31/2018 at 9:34 PM, TruthSeeker0 said:

Why give a fuck if the oceans and the atmosphere are warming? Why care about the change to ecosystems, food webs, and the ripple effect that has among species? Why give a fuck about the impact on sea life, more drought, more severe weather, wildfires, and species going extinct because there is no more habitat for them? Why care about using more fossil fuels to cool ourselves down because the place is heating up, therefore heating it up more? Why give a fuck about heat waves, more bad ozone and their deadly effects on vulnerable humans with health conditions? Why give a fuck about the spread of infectious diseases like malaria and lyme disease? Why care about water shortages, less snow melt, shrinking drinking water sources and crop irrigation? Why give a fuck about four seasons in the northern hemisphere, who the hell likes them anyway?

 

Just give a fuck about yourselves, ok?  Don't let those scientists screw with your head or your government or government policies. The only thing that matters is that you don't pay a penny more for anyone else or anything other than yourselves.

 

Is this an attempt to motivate people through the method of alarm? 

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On 8/31/2018 at 10:13 PM, midniterider said:

Good post Josh. 

 

So even though the politicians may mismanage things, at some point when water is nipping at their toes in the decades to come, it will be an undeniable fact and the mismanagers will have no choice but to adapt us all to solve the problem. 

 

 

 

You'd think that at some point we'd start loosing the outer Islands up and down the coast if the sea were really going to over take Florida in the near future. It would be a slow process, slowly over taking the barrier Islands and then infiltrating the intercoastal waterways and eventually working it's way towards the central ridge, which, runs around 100' - 300' above sea level. It would be the last hold out and probably become a series of Islands before everything would eventually disappear under the sea. And this slow process would be observed over long periods of time, unless we got hit with a massive tidal wave. But even then, the water would subside back down to existing sea levels in the wake of something like that. 

 

If you visit Bok Tower Gardens right in the middle of the state you can see charts showing some of the past sea level changes in Florida. In the past when sea levels were much higher, the central ridge was a series of Islands. Most of the state used to be shallow underwater reef, which, is what our bedrock is based on. We find ancient sharks teeth in the middle of the state on the river bottoms of now fresh water spring runs. The springs, in fact, exist because of the erosion of acidic rain water against the old reef bedrock forming caves and channels under the ground, which, developed the Floridan Aquifer system. In contrast, during past Ice Ages the water levels were so low that dry land extended way, way out into the now Gulf of Mexico. Divers find fresh water springs under water on the now sea floor, submerged pine tree stumps, and even old native burial grounds completely under water now. The evidence of dramatic sea level rise both higher and lower than today is evident all around the state. 

 

Long story short, there isn't anything that would stop the sea levels from fluctuating to those extremes of high and low over the course of the future. If we cut all fossil fuel technology there would still be glaciation and inter glacial periods which will do what they have always done to the Floridian Peninsula. The reality is that nothing is safe or 'static' here, nothing. Everything built in this state is subject to change. Even the ridge towns and cities. People seem to find comfort in thinking that things will or should always be just as they currently are. But that's not the reality. And as I was saying before, it is what it is. Future generations will have to leave these areas at times, and future generations will go out to inhabit new land during future glaciation periods when the sea subsides miles and miles back out into the Gulf. The movie, "The Time Machine" is a good example of the time scales involved and probable changes way, way out into the future. Given enough time things will be dramatically different. 

 

So for me the whole thing boils down to pollution and pollution alone. Whatever we do it's to try and stop pollution of the air, sea, and land. Shitting up the place isn't very becoming. That's reason enough to work against pollution. No fear mongering necessary. It's just a matter of trying to clean up messes so we're not living in complete shit all the time. The climate will change regardless. But at least we can adapt to the changes without having polluted everything to high hell. I want to see clean water and clean air. I don't oppose those things. I'm always out in nature boating, surfing, fishing, etc. I want to see a clean natural environment, while that environment exists. When nature takes the state away, then it won't exist. Until nature brings it back from the depths again, and so on, and so on - as the continents themselves continue moving on top of everything else I've just looked at. Nothing is static....

 

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I read through pretty regular articles that come through about potential fraud and / or misconduct on the science front. One of my cousin's is a marine biologist who took off to Australia in the early 80's. Sailed the south Pacific making nature documentaries. He's been vocal against his peers in science who cheat and twist for political and financial reasons. Here's one from today that I'm currently reading through: http://notrickszone.com/2018/08/19/rss-suspected-of-serious-data-doping-german-scientists-say-values-fudged-to-fit-models/

 

RSS-why-1024x639.png

 

At some point from mid 2015, the RSS people pushed the temperatures starting at  the year 2000 manually upwards. Therefore today you can find the values of the blue curve in the database. As a result of this subsequent data change, additional warming was generated at a speed of one and a half tenths of a degree. It does not sound very much, but it is much if you consider that the 20th century warming was only eight-tenths of a degree. [snipped from linked article]

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8 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Is this an attempt to motivate people through the method of alarm? 

Of course. What else would I be doing? Don't you know that's my main purpose in this thread? /end sarcasm.

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  • 2 months later...

Well, the weather has changed in the past and will keep changing ~ the Romans grew grapes in parts of the British Islands where the won't grow today ( so I've read )~ the weather may get warmer or colder in the years to come ~ but I think there is nothing humans can do to speed it up or slow it down ```

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3 minutes ago, Vartan said:

Well, the weather has changed in the past and will keep changing

 

Obvious statement of fact. Not in dispute. However weather and climate are different.

 

3 minutes ago, Vartan said:

~ the Romans grew grapes in parts of the British Islands where the won't grow today ( so I've read )

 

Again statement of fact, not in dispute. Also not in dispute is that we are already naturally warming from the last ice age.

 

3 minutes ago, Vartan said:

~ the weather may get warmer or colder in the years to come

 

Non sequitur. It's like me saying the currency may go up, down or stay the same. Really? Ya think? The weather here last week was 16 degrees C, bloody cold for November. This week its 26 degrees. Weather. Again weather and climate are different. 

 

3 minutes ago, Vartan said:

~ but I think there is nothing humans can do to speed it up or slow it down ```

 

This is the interesting part. What are you basing your thoughts on? I would say, based on all the info I've managed to gather thus far, and taking into account human nature, that you are right about not slowing down the warming. It's like a locomotive - the faster it gets the harder it is to slow down. If you apply a little bit of brakes when its only at 20kmh then you can stop it fairly easy. Applying a little bit of braking at 300kmh and you'll barely affect the speed. Similar to the way CO interacts with warming. You pump lots into the atmosphere, even if you totally stop (Never happening BTW) the warming will still continue for some time.

 

As for not speeding it up... well pretty much all the science is against you so you must have knowledge which has eluded the best and brightest.. if so please share it.

 

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New Zealand ~ Someone I liked very much was talking about moving there , born in Germany  ~ loved to sail ~ when we were negotiating the contract for the cosmetic division ~ he actually did leave ~ sure would love to see them, he and his wife ~ guess it will never happen ```

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