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Secular Grace

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Guest end3

Talking with one of my sisters that leans politically left....she was noting the different societal changes and the trending "enforcement" of these changes though various groups....race, gender, political,  and the means they wield to "enforce", nasty as they can become.  The analogy that came to the forefront of my mind, is despite the decline in Christianity, there still seems a need for grace, a fundamental call, that people are still pushing for kindness and understanding for all groups, not through the understanding they are deriving in church, but by actually hashing this out through the rise of social media...hyper communing as it were.

 

By grace, we might use the "unmerited favor" definition, BECAUSE, we can all find lack of merit in someone else's perspective.

 

I guess the difference is grace presented through the church was less hashed out in church, opposed to a lively discussion these days...see the former TOT.

 

Will there be more war?  Will humanity figure this out in time?  Tune in tomorrow, same Bat time, same Bat channel...

 

Thoughts?

 

*** Blessings as always to all you heathen bastards ....this Sunday morning message brought to you in part by the memory of Paul Harvey and SERTA Perfect Sleepers....good DAY!

 

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I was a member of a religious sect that believed grace had to be earned. Another example for why there are 30,000+ versions of Christianity. 

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Guest end3
11 minutes ago, Geezer said:

I was a member of a religious sect that believed grace had to be earned. Another example for why there are 30,000+ versions of Christianity. 

It appears grace must be earned as well in non-religious belief > 30K...

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If you're going to use the word grace to refer to something like a conscious decision not to enforce strongly held social norms then it seems to me that the overwhelming majority of Christian sects actively teach adherents not to practice this form of grace. For example, they do not practice this kind of grace towards LGBTQ people, nor traditionally towards people that violated other sexual norms, nor towards atheists or members of other religions. Although I do think in at least some traditional forms of Christianity (I have in mind some monastic traditions in particular) this idea of explicitly demurring from enforcing moral judgements exists, but it's usually described as mercy, or by an appeal to "judge not", rather than described as grace.

 

That monastic ideal of non-judgement always appealed to me. In fact I would say it was the Sermon on the Mount's sort-of-radical-egalitarianism and non-judgement that led me to identify as Christian. And it was most Christians' failure to come close to this ideal that always kept me away from joining actual church groups. Ironically, as I've gotten older I've also come to appreciate a little bit more the importance of social norms in creating the kind of society I want to live in. I don't think it's trivial to find a good balance between "grace" (defined as you have) and "justice", so to speak. But I also definitely don't think that American Christians provide a good example to emulate, especially if you actually value this kind of grace.

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Guest end3
21 minutes ago, wellnamed said:

If you're going to use the word grace to refer to something like a conscious decision not to enforce strongly held social norms then it seems to me that the overwhelming majority of Christian sects actively teach adherents not to practice this form of grace. For example, they do not practice this kind of grace towards LGBTQ people, nor traditionally towards people that violated other sexual norms, nor towards atheists or members of other religions. Although I do think in at least some traditional forms of Christianity (I have in mind some monastic traditions in particular) this idea of explicitly demurring from enforcing moral judgements exists, but it's usually described as mercy, or by an appeal to "judge not", rather than described as grace.

 

That monastic ideal of non-judgement always appealed to me. In fact I would say it was the Sermon on the Mount's sort-of-radical-egalitarianism and non-judgement that led me to identify as Christian. And it was most Christians' failure to come close to this ideal that always kept me away from joining actual church groups. Ironically, as I've gotten older I've also come to appreciate a little bit more the importance of social norms in creating the kind of society I want to live in. I don't think it's trivial to find a good balance between "grace" (defined as you have) and "justice", so to speak. But I also definitely don't think that American Christians provide a good example to emulate, especially if you actually value this kind of grace.

Believe it or not, I think you and I pretty much agree.  As I've aged, I've become more silent and less fundamental/vocal.  But I also realize my lack of omniscience...lol.  I just find it unique that the world appears to be hammering out this grace/justice rather than practicing a "higher subscription".  Thanks for the comments.

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An omnipotent, sovereign being can't have "grace" for some and not for others. If this being is omnipotent, by definition, every other being is not. "All-powerful" means possessing the ability to defend oneself against anything at all, or to overcome anything at all.

 

"I will give you the chance to 'love' (sic) me, or I will unilaterally decide you deserve unending torture" is not grace. It's despotism.

 

The more people begin to understand that religions are just tools of oligarchs, the more they will see that grace is a most deeply human, humanist, necessary element of the only life we have - this one, in community with each other.

 

What is religion, after all, but a method of systematically establishing/explaining why things are the way they are - power structures, natural occurrences - things which the uneducated and disadvantaged have never understood, and things which the average person today still misunderstands and/or takes for granted?

 

The things we couldn't understand were explained as invisible, magical gods and their doings in the heavens. The things we could understand, that were painful and disadvantageous, were explained as the "will" of the same gods who made the sky go boom or made crops die.

 

Grace has no top-down pyramidal structure.  The evil shit that religions teach in the name of the rich establishment always does.

 

That's why people are getting angrier day by day - the closer the working people get to touching the power base, the harder our questions hit and sting, the more strident the despots become.  They can't abandon their dogmas and structures of so-called faith, because, lacking them, they have no justification (pun intended) for their positions of power and profit.

 

Religion ultimately needs to convince and remind people that they are hopeless without the deities, who have conveniently established the oligarchs in their places.

 

Grace says don't look up, look around. Big difference.

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On 6/25/2018 at 1:02 AM, end3 said:

Talking with one of my sisters that leans politically left....she was noting the different societal changes and the trending "enforcement" of these changes though various groups....race, gender, political,  and the means they wield to "enforce", nasty as they can become.  The analogy that came to the forefront of my mind, is despite the decline in Christianity, there still seems a need for grace, a fundamental call, that people are still pushing for kindness and understanding for all groups, not through the understanding they are deriving in church, but by actually hashing this out through the rise of social media...hyper communing as it were.

 

By grace, we might use the "unmerited favor" definition, BECAUSE, we can all find lack of merit in someone else's perspective.

 

I guess the difference is grace presented through the church was less hashed out in church, opposed to a lively discussion these days...see the former TOT.

 

Will there be more war?  Will humanity figure this out in time?  Tune in tomorrow, same Bat time, same Bat channel...

 

Thoughts?

 

*** Blessings as always to all you heathen bastards ....this Sunday morning message brought to you in part by the memory of Paul Harvey and SERTA Perfect Sleepers....good DAY!

 

Ephesians 4:29 NIV
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

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On 6/24/2018 at 11:02 AM, end3 said:

Talking with one of my sisters that leans politically left....she was noting the different societal changes and the trending "enforcement" of these changes though various groups....race, gender, political,  and the means they wield to "enforce", nasty as they can become.  The analogy that came to the forefront of my mind, is despite the decline in Christianity, there still seems a need for grace, a fundamental call, that people are still pushing for kindness and understanding for all groups, not through the understanding they are deriving in church, but by actually hashing this out through the rise of social media...hyper communing as it were.

 

By grace, we might use the "unmerited favor" definition, BECAUSE, we can all find lack of merit in someone else's perspective.

 

I guess the difference is grace presented through the church was less hashed out in church, opposed to a lively discussion these days...see the former TOT.

 

Will there be more war?  Will humanity figure this out in time?  Tune in tomorrow, same Bat time, same Bat channel...

 

Thoughts?

 

*** Blessings as always to all you heathen bastards ....this Sunday morning message brought to you in part by the memory of Paul Harvey and SERTA Perfect Sleepers....good DAY!

 

I think I would have to generally agree with you, End. I think that this current generation of individuals is working towards accepting life on life's terms and challenging the norms we have in society today. I have to say that its refreshing to see. Of course, people can and do take it too far at times, but I think the underlying message is getting across.

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Guest end3
5 hours ago, Storm said:

I think I would have to generally agree with you, End. I think that this current generation of individuals is working towards accepting life on life's terms and challenging the norms we have in society today. I have to say that its refreshing to see. Of course, people can and do take it too far at times, but I think the underlying message is getting across.

+1.  I don't disagree with the ideology, I disagree with their mechanism(s) to enact such.  Thanks for the note.

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On 6/24/2018 at 8:02 AM, end3 said:

 

*** Blessings as always to all you heathen bastards ....this Sunday morning message brought to you in part by the memory of Paul Harvey and SERTA Perfect Sleepers....good DAY!

 

 

 

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