Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Orbit

Survey of men

Recommended Posts

Some interesting results here. There appears to be a some gaps between the 18-34s and the 35+s in the results--generational changes?

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-do-men-think-it-means-to-be-a-man/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Volatile societal views are hard to keep up with. Expectations of what a man should be and what a woman should be change with time and geography. It seems that most individuals are, at heart, "people pleasers" and it's becoming quite a conundrum figuring out whom you want to please during this time of upheaval. After all, one wants to be "right." New rules for gender norms are often at odds with biology so it's inherently an uphill battle. Of course old folks like myself, both male and female, don't seek to please anymore. If I want to give myself a dry shave and change a tire, I will. If I want to get teary eyed at some chick flick, I will. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest end3

It appears this survey is based more on today's trends.

Thinking of what it has meant to be a man over the years.

 

1) How hard do you work.

2) How you work....with common sense, skills, and knowledge of your work.

3) Your integrity and how you shake hands, is your pocket knife sharp.

4) Your vehicles.

5) Your tools and equipment ... do you have the tools to build or fix what you need.

6) Your stories and exploits as a  young man.

6a) Women stories.

7) Provision

8) More women stuff men must endure.

9) Beer and barbque.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, end3 said:

It appears this survey is based more on today's trends.

I'm not too sure what gave it away, End...

 

Could it be this? ----- "FiveThirtyEight and WNYC partnered with SurveyMonkey for a nationwide survey of 1,615 adults who identify as men."

 

Heck, according to that one sentence and "today's trends", we have no guarantee that either of those 1,615 adults given the survey were biological males to begin with.

  • Thanks 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless you expect the interviewers to inspect people's genitals you wouldn't have that guarantee regardless of the wording.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Keep fishing until correct results caught".

"Studies say, thus may provide some evidence of.... proof"


"Need more exploration, necessary obligatory circumstances surrounding data input."

 

One might do a poll and prove damn near anything when data is correlated to outcome desired.

 

I'll keep stand up while answering polls and taking care of business in Father's Library and Think Tank.

 

kFL

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest end3
5 minutes ago, SkipNChurch said:

"Keep fishing until correct results caught".

"Studies say, thus may provide some evidence of.... proof"


"Need more exploration, necessary obligatory circumstances surrounding data input."

 

One might do a poll and prove damn near anything when data is correlated to outcome desired.

 

I'll keep stand up while answering polls and taking care of business in Father's Library and Think Tank.

 

kFL

Verily....you didn't/don't have to do a nut check on the men I knew/know...

 

Excellent observation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, end3 said:

Verily....you didn't/don't have to do a nut check on the men I knew/know...

 

The survey was conducted online, so your ability to identify biological males by sight is not very helpful. Given the description in the article, it appears to me that they relied on gender provided by SurveyMonkey users who were active on the site because they were taking other surveys. In other words, the gender provided by the user was provided in a context prior to them knowing they were going to be offered a survey on gender attitudes, in case you were worried about a lot of people deciding to lie about their gender specifically to try to skew this one survey. What percentage of SurveyMonkey users do you suppose regularly lie about their gender? It seems likely that the number is too small to really be of concern when evaluating the results here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am more amused than bothered by contents in article with its research results.

If so inclined read on below quoted article snippage from OP.
Not PC, may warm one's toast and cause ever so slight mental indigestion to those inclined to such.

 

Quote

End lines from OP URL. 

 


In all, the survey suggests that American men are still fractured about their role in society.

A year’s worth of headlines about sexual misconduct has led many to declare that a “reckoning” is upon us.

But a reckoning does not necessarily make for a revolution.



 


 

1* Fractured?  Suggests?  Roles?

Keep fishing.  As long as Men can still piss standing up, world is our toilet.  

 

2* Reckoning?
Upon who or whom?  Best of fortune with whatever that may be.  I'm quite sure when Occidental societies have had testicles removed save for breeding use.. Nevermind, not worth effort.

 

3* Revolution?

Power to those who keep trying to reduce the natural Man to a simpering Citi-ot hipster-esque form of once Human.

 

For every thousands of urban refusal to 'sack up' sorts there are still going to be one or two Men who will still tend necessary infrastructures of simply living.
Sure the long con has been in place with Prussian Schooling enforcing uniformity and helping destroy initiative for a century plus.

 

Informed people allow their man chiles dirt dares deeds disasters to learn and earn from.


One might see that I am in that 'older' range where expectations of Manly Men were trained into kids, those thoughts and actions helped build a mostly peaceful polite society. Boy's sack haired up, he was expected to grow the fuck up and quit being a child.  

 

Today's urban ute will starve to death long before a transformation of society into a nutless androgynous so thought equality.

 

kL 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest end3
35 minutes ago, wellnamed said:

 

The survey was conducted online, so your ability to identify biological males by sight is not very helpful. Given the description in the article, it appears to me that they relied on gender provided by SurveyMonkey users who were active on the site because they were taking other surveys. In other words, the gender provided by the user was provided in a context prior to them knowing they were going to be offered a survey on gender attitudes, in case you were worried about a lot of people deciding to lie about their gender specifically to try to skew this one survey. What percentage of SurveyMonkey users do you suppose regularly lie about their gender? It seems likely that the number is too small to really be of concern when evaluating the results here.

Let's cut to the chase here wn... what is it you would like me to take away from the survey.  My lifetime has given me a pretty good number of "users''/data points to make an assessment.  Please let me know, thx.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, end3 said:

Let's cut to the chase here wn... what is it you would like me to take away from the survey.

 

Nothing in particular. I think the results are fairly banal, and nothing too surprising. I would guess the most interesting result (even if not very surprising to me) is that men in the survey are more likely to believe that being male is a disadvantage in the workplace than an advantage. I seem to recall some other Pew surveys that have similar-ish results. But, from my perspective the discussion about what qualifies as science and what doesn't, and how to evaluate various methods, is probably more interesting than this actual survey. The attempts to find methodological reasons to reject the survey's validity strike me as more interesting than the actual content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest end3
9 minutes ago, wellnamed said:

 

Nothing in particular. I think the results are fairly banal, and nothing too surprising. I would guess the most interesting result (even if not very surprising to me) is that men in the survey are more likely to believe that being male is a disadvantage in the workplace than an advantage. I seem to recall some other Pew surveys that have similar-ish results. But, from my perspective the discussion about what qualifies as science and what doesn't, and how to evaluate various methods, is probably more interesting than this actual survey. The attempts to find methodological reasons to reject the survey's validity strike me as more interesting than the actual content.

Heck yeah, they have boobs, they have a vagina, they can still show their cleavage, legs, etc. in the workplace, and some of them are pretty hooked up in the brains department.  Sounds like an advantage to me as well.  And because they are "weaker", they can claim harassment to boot.  Good call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

This was correlated with their exaggerated fear of being falsely accused of sexual harassment, I blame all the men's rights activists for stoking this fear as a politcally based response to the MeToo Movement.  As if this actually gives them a "disadvantage" compared to women, who actually have to fear being sexually assaulted by men, and not just falsely accused.  

 

 

I agree that the fear is probably exaggerated, and having done some research on the MRA movement I agree that the rhetoric MRAs use tends to rely on fomenting outrage. But I also think it's probably easy to overestimate how widespread or important the MRA movement is, unless we're going to include more mainstream outlets who probably also contribute but which I wouldn't refer to as MRAs specifically.

 

I think also what's noteworthy is that the advantages listed are somewhat diffuse and visible only in the aggregate; they aren't necessarily easy for an individual to observe unless they are paying attention specifically for this kind of thing. It's easy for me to believe that the majority of men feel like they are not advantaged in those ways. On the other hand, being accused of harassment is pretty concrete and easy for people to imagine. So I think that explains some of the difference. There's a school of epistemology in feminism called Standpoint theory that I think has made a lot of interesting contributions by way of thinking about how different people's social situations impact what knowledge is readily available to them purely as a consequence of that position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, end3 said:

Heck yeah, they have boobs, they have a vagina, they can still show their cleavage, legs, etc. in the workplace, and some of them are pretty hooked up in the brains department.  Sounds like an advantage to me as well.  And because they are "weaker", they can claim harassment to boot.  Good call.

 

It turns out being perceived primarily as a sex object (which you seem to be doing above) isn't always an advantage in one's career. I'm not sure what physical strength has to do with harassment. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the question of whether men have certain advantages or face certain other disadvantages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What struck me about the survey was the age difference on a few items (like paying for a date and expectations put on men), and that men couldn't see their advantages at work; and that 25% had never heard of #metoo but a sizeable minority also had a fear of false accusations, which are in reality relatively rare. I didn't post this to start a gender war, I posted it because it's timely, done by a reputable polling outfit, and had interesting results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, florduh said:

Of course old folks like myself, both male and female, don't seek to please anymore.

 

THAT'S the truth!   :dance:

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest end3
1 minute ago, wellnamed said:

 

 I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the question of whether men have certain advantages or face certain other disadvantages.

What comes to mind are biological differences..... people will use them to gain advantage.....certainly in the workplace.  For example, instead of intellect, she might use cleavage.  Instead of strength, she might use harassment....i.e., he harassed me, he's fired, now I have the job and he has a ruined life.   You were asking about the line item men believing male to be a disadvantage.  The aforementioned are those imo.  Again, the rise of the thin line of what is #metoo and what is not is very thin these days.  I've already cited there are intelligent women worthy to compete.  Again, the point being in the height of the equality movement, women appear to have a new arrow in the quiver, thus driving the survey.

 

And I understand that this is no different than what has happened to women for years, ages, that biological differences have been used in inappropriate ways.  This doesn't make what is happening now a valid tool if used inappropriately. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that there's lots of ways people could act inappropriately, but that's not what the survey asked about, and you're conveniently skipping past the part where you try to find out whether those things are actually happening with any frequency. A hypothetical disadvantage is not actually a disadvantage.

 

I will agree that the #metoo movement is creating change, and while I think that change is necessary and good, it's also certainly true that changing social norms creates some upheaval and uncertainty (as florduh pointed out), and I'm sure some things will go wrong along the way. I wouldn't take an endorsement of #metoo in general as a blanket approval of literally everything that does happen, let alone everything that could or might happen. A while back I read this article about political debates balancing between concern with equilibria and limits. I think it's a useful way of thinking about #metoo. I support the movement because I think it's pushing the equilibrium in a better direction. Some of the pushback is concerned with navigating what the limits should be with respect to work boundaries and the like. I think the conversation about limits or concerns that men might have about being called harassers unfairly can be valid, but I also don't think people should wield them as a defense mechanism against considering the valid and longstanding complaints of women. I expect it will take some time to work some of the questions about social norms out.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been a little concerned about survey's in general lately. What is the argument for the relevance of any survey, about any topic, which only questions 1,600, or even 5,000 people?

 

I like surveys and reading through results. But as to how they translate to anything meaningful against a national or global interest seems highly questionable. And the religious surveys take a hit here, too, of course. They look good in terms of religious decline to those who are for seeing a decline in religion. But how reliable are these surveys when it comes to learning the truth about peoples opinions on any given issue? 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

I've been a little concerned about survey's in general lately. What is the argument for the relevance of any survey, about any topic, which only questions 1,600, or even 5,000 people?

 

I like surveys and reading through results. But as to how they translate to anything meaningful against a national or global interest seems highly questionable. And the religious surveys take a hit here, too, of course. They look good in terms of religious decline to those who are for seeing a decline in religion. But how reliable are these surveys when it comes to learning the truth about peoples opinions on any given issue? 

 

Survey sampling is well-established mathematically. National surveys rarely use a sample of more than 2,500. Why? Diminishing returns--the patterns can be seen at a lower level. The larger the population, the less of a percentage of it you need to have a valid, predictive random sample. See any statistics textbook for "how big does my sample need to be". Most survey researchers would say 5,000 is simply mathematically unnecessary.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Orbit said:

Survey sampling is well-established mathematically. National surveys rarely use a sample of more than 2,500.

 

Clipped quote, but I don't think it makes my questions out of context.

 

My questions are: 

2,500 people selected how, and is it taken into consideration what kind of people are willing to participate in the survey, are survey questions specifically worded to garner a specific result (and can they be, and if so by who or whom),  are some survey results suppressed and others promoted, and on a national level, which parts of the nation are surveyed because 2,500 out of 300+ million doesn't make sense without chosen guidelines which may or may not be accurate?

 

But yeah, mathematics!   

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

My questions are: 

2,500 people selected how

 

Ideally, the answer is randomly, where every member of the population in question is equally likely to be selected. In practice, this is very difficult to do (not just for pollsters) so other methods are often used to approximate random sampling. In this particular example they collected a randomly selected sample of SurveyMonkey users and then weighted the responses by demographic characteristics of the respondents to approximate the demographic distribution of the US population overall. What that means is, for example, if the percentage of 50-64 year old men in their sample was smaller than the actual percentage of 50-64 year old men in the population then they would count the responses of that sub-group a little bit extra so that the weight of their responses approximates what percentage of the population they actually represent. They made similar adjustments for other demographic variables. They don't specify which, but I would expect likely candidates are age, geographic location, race, level of education, level of income, possibly others, or possibly only age, geographic location, and race. This technique of re-weighting a sample to match the known demographic profile of a larger population is common in electing polling, and while I would say it's never completely ideal it has empirically good results over the last couple decades. Good enough for the kinds of rough conclusions the article discusses at least.

 

15 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

are survey questions specifically worded to garner a specific result (and can they be, and if so by who or whom)

 

This is a known issue in survey design, and one that 538 specifically has published articles about in the past, so I would expect them to do a fairly reasonable job at it. You can evaluate it for yourself, the questions and possible answers respondents can give are in the article, as well as in the provided raw data. They all look pretty neutral to me.

 

18 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

are some survey results suppressed and others promoted

 

Obviously this would invalidate any survey but I think this is highly unlikely in this particular case given the organizations involved in producing the survey. It's also unlikely because, as noted before, there's really nothing particularly controversial or provocative about the results. There's no real reason to be concerned about this here.

 

19 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

on a national level, which parts of the nation are surveyed because 2,500 out of 300+ million doesn't make sense without chosen guidelines which may or may not be accurate?

 

This should hopefully be answered above in the explanation of demographic weighting.

 

I wanted to make a few more general comments towards what @Joshpantera wrote:

 

1) To reiterate what Orbit said, statistical sampling and the relationship between sample size and sampling error is very well established. I'm not a statistician so I doubt I can give an absolutely complete overview (see your stats textbook), but in a nutshell: given the ability to randomly sample, and given some assumptions about the variable for which one is sampling, there's a simple relationship between the sample size and the sampling error (what surveys generally report as "margin of error"). There are some extra complications depending on the way the variable is distributed and how you can determine standard error for it, but those don't really matter to the general idea. When Orbit says that there's diminishing returns, she just means that survey researchers are generally content with margins of error in the +/- 3-5% range, and you don't need larger sample sizes to achieve that limit on sampling error for the adult US population, or registered voters. Sampling error isn't the only possible kind of error, but it's the only one that is contingent on sample size.

 

2) It's not just surveys or social science that rely on statistical sampling. It's a pretty foundational method in modern science. In medicine, biology, zoology, and probably a bunch of other fields. So not just political science or sociology. Good sampling can definitely be tricky, and a deep dive into how political opinion polling really works is interesting. Like in this particular case I might rate their methodology like a B-, because I think randomly sampling SurveyMonkey users is probably less ideal than a poll that calls some mix of landlines and cell phones. But then, where live telephone surveys used to be the gold standard, they've gotten worse over time as fewer people have landlines and it has become more problematic to get people on the phone. So there are always difficulties, but...

 

3) One of the nice things about some of these polling techniques is that we actually do have a good empirical test for their reliability: election polling. We get pretty decent feedback on the accuracy of the polls every couple of years, and for the most part if you look at the average of national election polling in Presidential elections you'll find that American pollsters are pretty good. In 2016 national polls were off by about 1-2% on average, which is about the margin of error on this poll as well.

 

Obviously some pollsters perform better than other, and you should keep margins of error in mind before drawing too fine-grained of conclusions from a survey like the one in this thread, but considering the mathematical foundations of statistical sampling, the wide consensus across many scientific disciplines that such sampling techniques allow for representative validity, and empirical support for polling accuracy specifically found in election polling, I think you can feel reasonably confident that surveys like this one are providing you useful data, within the scope of the known limitations like margins of error.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, wellnamed said:

Ideally, the answer is randomly, where every member of the population in question is equally likely to be selected. In practice, this is very difficult to do (not just for pollsters) so other methods are often used to approximate random sampling.

 

Yeah, thanks for helping to prove my point.  You know, maybe if I was a Survey Monkey participant I would have had a shot at having my opinion registered, but thanks for your many words.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, wellnamed said:

They made similar adjustments for other demographic variables. They don't specify which, but I would expect likely candidates are age, geographic location, race, level of education, level of income, possibly others, or possibly only age, geographic location, and race.

 

If they don't specify, I don't pay attention no matter what you expect is likely.  No offense and all.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.