LogicalFallacy

Petition to bar Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux from entering NZ

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https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12083988

 

This of course leads back to our discourse on tolerance and free speech.

 

Free speech for me but not for thee.

 

Disagree largely with her views, but I think we'd share some common ground on issues regarding Islam.

 

It comes back down to should we be barring people from speaking, and thus taking away the right of people to hear them? Do the people wanting to bar this really think that people who would go and listen and already agree will suddenly have less harmful ideologies?

 

Or is this the sort of thing that is justified at being barred in order to prevent giving legitimate voice to potentially harmful ideologies?

 

[Edit] I'm going to quote something I just read from @Daffodil that I think is relevant here:


 

Quote

 

"And anyway, wouldn't you prefer to know who these people are and expose their ignorance to the intelligent around them?  Would you prefer that they remain secret, allowing their hatred to fester being closed doors?  That exposure allows the rest of us to explain why these ideas are wrong and detrimental.  More people get educated that way than if they are forced into silence and everyone relaxes into a dangerous complacency. 

 

Your definition is ok, but leaves a lot to be desired.  "Or speech that causes some group to be afraid or angry . . ."  So it should be other people's responsibility to monitor/manage my feelings?  Nope! "

 

 

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IMO suppressing or sanctioning "free speech" allowed for Trump to take the White House so commandingly and led to the rise of the "Alt-RIght".  I don't think Americans really knew how much racism existed all around the country until Trump kind of allowed them to voice their opinions so loudly.  There's still a backlash against them, including the whole "is it okay to punch a Nazi" thing, but if they'd been able to speak freely this whole time they could have been countered much better and I personally believe that race relations would be better instead of simply repressed.

 

...and I'm of my soapbox.

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     I say let people try to go to any fictional places they care to go.

 

          mwc

 

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43 minutes ago, mwc said:

     I say let people try to go to any fictional places they care to go.

 

          mwc

 

 

Does this include the fictional reality inside your head that has a world without NZ? 🤣

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13 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Does this include the fictional reality inside your head that has a world without NZ? 🤣

     I was at the Pacific Ocean yesterday.  From a nearby hill I saw an island.  I was all excited that I had finally spotted the mythical New Zealand.  As it turned out it was simply one of the Channel Islands.  Another letdown.  But my research continues.

 

          mwc

 

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Anyone who signs that petition and if the NZ government actually bans them from entering just gives them more credibility.  It also shows how much manufactured outrage over words said that harm nobody has led people to extreme of hypersensitivity. My my, such silliness.  :ph34r:

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I swear to god, those millennials governing the fictional Island of New Zealand are in dire need of a reality check! 

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I got an error 404 on that page. Probably the leftists blocking free speech. :)

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If a Wahhabi preacher who wanted to potentially recruit followers among your population asked to come to your country to speak, would you unequivocally let him in?  

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I think there's a difference between ISIS and a couple of right-wing wing nuts.  Southern and Molyneux aren't really a danger to anyone bodily, though as one Muslim said they would just show up to the venue and insult them, and that's an abuse of freedom of speech.  Preaching about killing people or on the behalf of people who do kill people often and horribly just aren't in the same weight class.

 

FoS sometimes makes people uncomfortable and sometimes it insults people.  I know I'm insulted on occasion, especially by ignorant people making ignorant claims for the sake of comedy.  I can't stop them, and if were in my power I wouldn't, because at the end of the day it's all pretty harmless.  On the other hand, even the Alt-Right and the KKK and the White Nationalists aren't advocating wholesale murder at their rallies.  It's not nice and it's often insulting, but then again, so are so many people on the left, they just get away with it more due to "progress" or such thing.

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19 hours ago, 1989 said:

I think there's a difference between ISIS and a couple of right-wing wing nuts.  Southern and Molyneux aren't really a danger to anyone bodily, though as one Muslim said they would just show up to the venue and insult them, and that's an abuse of freedom of speech.  Preaching about killing people or on the behalf of people who do kill people often and horribly just aren't in the same weight class.

 

FoS sometimes makes people uncomfortable and sometimes it insults people.  I know I'm insulted on occasion, especially by ignorant people making ignorant claims for the sake of comedy.  I can't stop them, and if were in my power I wouldn't, because at the end of the day it's all pretty harmless.  On the other hand, even the Alt-Right and the KKK and the White Nationalists aren't advocating wholesale murder at their rallies.  It's not nice and it's often insulting, but then again, so are so many people on the left, they just get away with it more due to "progress" or such thing.

Southern and Molyneux teach that there a slow rolling white genocide going on at present with a secret plot to destroy Western civilization.  If you think such beliefs have no risk to anyone bodily, I have a history book for you to read.

 

If you don't count 9/11 there have been far more extremist killings in the US from white supremacists over the past few decades than Islamist.  I dont know how in this "free speech" debate that these views which teach white nationalism or even Nazism that these people don't represent any physical or existential threat to society.  

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Again, if it's out there, people can react to it.  If it's underground, then people can't.  Without challenging their ideas they just pick up membership and resentment, which is a great formula for impending violence.  Even if they are driven underground, they can still reach interested parties via the internet, like ISIS does.  Better to have it out in the open where we can keep an eye on it better.  Also, giving them the freedom to speak means that they can't use censorship as a point of martyrdom.

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I found an opinion piece on this issue - fairly well balanced and goes deeply into our favourite subject - free speech.

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12087997

 

My views actually largely agree with Simon's. He's makes a good point that free speech should be made in good faith, or bad faith even, but not deliberate attempts to provoke reactions.

 

And I see the Auckland Council agrees with TS's view that one shouldn't offer their property for potentially damaging speech.

 

They were banned from Australia, but it seems that's been lifted. No idea if their tour is going ahead. 

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2 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

I found an opinion piece on this issue - fairly well balanced and goes deeply into our favourite subject - free speech.

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12087997

 

My views actually largely agree with Simon's. He's makes a good point that free speech should be made in good faith, or bad faith even, but not deliberate attempts to provoke reactions.

 

And I see the Auckland Council agrees with TS's view that one shouldn't offer their property for potentially damaging speech.

 

They were banned from Australia, but it seems that's been lifted. No idea if their tour is going ahead. 

People are looking at this like it is all the Left, this is more so a change in thinking across the board on how people interact with how ideas spread in a society.  It turns out these guys are not practicing free speech in good faith, but as a Trojan horse for their authoritarian worldview.  While I don't think it should be banned outright, I think private establishments should give it a platform and I agree in part with countries that don't want these people to be spreading their ideologies in their country.  I think banning them has in turn also served to further their cause.  Some kind of middle ground is needed and I think the American model has the answer, but not in the way it is portrayed to be an absolute for all contexts like Conservatives.

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With the internet out there doing the internet thing people can find nearly anything or anyone that they agree with, unless the country in question blocks parts of the internet off from the country.  By denying people entry to private venues to speak or debate, well, there's YouTube for that and no one to counteract their arguments.  If they're so popular with the segment of the population they're trying to reach then the government can bring their own experts via the news networks to counteract their message.

 

Whether Right-wing speakers are using free speech as a vehicle to eventually dismantle it, and I have no doubts they are, the idea should still be out there, IMO, especially if invited to a private venue (yes, I know I'm repeating myself).  If the owner doesn't want them there, kick them out.  Free speech doesn't mean you have the right to be heard, just that you're free to say it.  I'll admit that there should be some limits, and we in America have them, like calling in false (or real) terroristic threats.  Also, if someone threatens someone else with bodily harm and that threat is considered credible, and order of protection can be issued for the presumptive victim.  It won't stop the truly dedicated, but I don't know what would short of locking up pretty much everyone.

 

Sorry if this seems disjointed, I'm not at my best here.

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Update kinda... I found this good article talking about the situation between free speech and religion. I pretty much agree with the writer.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/lauren-southern-israel-folau-and-the-problem-with-criticising-religion/ar-BBKWBmR?ocid=ientp

 

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2 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Update kinda... I found this good article talking about the situation between free speech and religion. I pretty much agree with the writer.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/lauren-southern-israel-folau-and-the-problem-with-criticising-religion/ar-BBKWBmR?ocid=ientp

 

 

I pretty much agree with the writer as well.  I think that the Left's stance on Islam comes from a knee-jerk reaction that it's the enemy of my enemy (ie: Christianity). If someone were to look beyond "Americanized" Muslims and get a load of how real Muslims from real Muslim countries act and how they interpret their special book, which non-Arabic readers really can't do proficiently, they'd be pretty appalled at what they saw, if they had the honesty to admit they were wrong.

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And they've cancelled the tour citing "safety concerns"

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz//nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12095069&ref=clavis

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Of course they did.  I like the term "Thug's Veto".  The mayor decides that they don't have the right to a venue because some of the people who helped pay for it would be offended, but what about the people who want to hear what they have to say?  They helped pay for it too.  The question becomes who's feelings do you hurt?  Of course the answer is the ones least likely to get you reelected.

 

As an aside, $79 does sound a bit steep, but if they don't recoup their costs, who cares?  That's not anyone's problem but the organizers and/or the speakers.

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"Southern has been denied entry to Britain and the same should be done here, says Hazim Arafeh, president of the NZ Federation of Islam Associations."

 

I don't know or care who Lauren Southern is, but I detest Stefan Molyneaux. That said, I would rather have Molyneaux speaking anywhere than a representative of the "Federation of Islam Associations." 

 

 

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I love this quote I saw:

Ms Brown-Davis said they're planning to demonstrate tolerance.

"They're not welcome in Aotearoa," she said.

 

I can guarantee that 99% of protesters have not seen a single video or article by either speaker.  They jump on the media one line catch phrases and are already carrying pitchforks and lighting torches before anyone bothers to check the facts. 

 

I also hope our mayor gets the smack down by the courts.  Apparently free speech groups are already starting cases against him.  His statements that speakers wouldn't get to use council buildings because he didn't approve misses the point that the buildings are publicly funded.  Its not his building, its the taxpayers.  We shouldn't have one mans subjective opinion deciding what everyone else can and can't see.

 

The only real risk is the SJW tolerance protesters trying to attack the speakers.

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I hate it when a gaggle of idiots force me to sympathize with Molyneaux.

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On 7/22/2018 at 6:42 PM, 1989 said:

 

I pretty much agree with the writer as well.  I think that the Left's stance on Islam comes from a knee-jerk reaction that it's the enemy of my enemy (ie: Christianity). If someone were to look beyond "Americanized" Muslims and get a load of how real Muslims from real Muslim countries act and how they interpret their special book, which non-Arabic readers really can't do proficiently, they'd be pretty appalled at what they saw, if they had the honesty to admit they were wrong.

 

You're absolutely correct on all points. 

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