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LogicalFallacy

Petition to bar Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux from entering NZ

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56 minutes ago, Blood said:

 

Not seeing much nuance there. 

 

Haiti does have a free market. 

 

I'm amazed that anyone thinks a doomsday prophet like Molyneaux is an objective philosopher and that only his critics are the emotional ones. I've yet to see any evidence that he's aware of IQ arguments beyond what he superficially cribbed from Murray. Hundreds of books exist on the subject but he only cares about the one that comports with his prejudices. 

 

Seriously though, where's the doomsday stuff? You know I hate fear mongering. I've haven't seen Molyneux doing it yet. Otherwise I'd be taking issue with him over it myself. Is there citation to where the doomsday aspect of all of this is discussed? 

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2 hours ago, Heimir said:

@Joshpantera - well put! Very balanced post!

 

I really like Stefan Molyneux and Lauren Southern, but I feel slightly uncomfortable with Stefan's style sometimes (though I must say that it has improved in my opinion over the years, he's becoming more balanced) and  very uncomfortable with some of the topics that they speak about - for good reason, because some are very controversial as you say. That said, I do think that all of these are important topics (immigration, race and iq, political extremes on both sides, etc), and I respect them for covering them. I do not wish to be in their shoes. And I do not agree with them on everything (I agree with no one on everything), but I do think that we should talk about these things.

 

Thanks Heimir, I am trying to do a fair analysis. NZ shut them out, but at least we can have a descent discussion here. 

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22 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Seriously though, where's the doomsday stuff? You know I hate fear mongering. I've haven't seen Molyneux doing it yet. Otherwise I'd be taking issue with him over it myself. Is there citation to where the doomsday aspect of all of this is discussed? 

 

The general drift of his channel is that "the Left" is destroying "western civilization" and if we don't heed the warning of prophets like himself, the West will soon become a Stalinist hellhole. I think it's fair to call that a doomsday perspective. It's a bit novel because it's a secular doomsday rather than the usual Christian one, but the underlying message is basically the same as the fundamentalists. Their panacea is the Bible. I don't know what Stefan's is -- the free market? Deportation for all non-whites? Enforced Ayn Rand Re-Education Camps?

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3 hours ago, Blood said:

 

The general drift of his channel is that "the Left" is destroying "western civilization" and if we don't heed the warning of prophets like himself, the West will soon become a Stalinist hellhole. I think it's fair to call that a doomsday perspective. It's a bit novel because it's a secular doomsday rather than the usual Christian one, but the underlying message is basically the same as the fundamentalists. Their panacea is the Bible. I don't know what Stefan's is -- the free market? Deportation for all non-whites? Enforced Ayn Rand Re-Education Camps?

 

I haven't watched enough of his personal channel to catch that. I have seen a fear mongering element on youtube by some right wing (often female conservative) voices suggesting that western culture is under siege by male, patriarchal, and white hating marxist's and post modernists. These videos venture into areas such as claims that "they" are trying to breed out white people with interracial sex, relationships and marriages. As part of this marxist agenda to de-patriarch western culture and take out the oppressive white civilization. Now right away, this IS heavily emotional fear mongering in the highest degree. From right wing voices. I haven't caught Molyneux in this yet, but I'll check. 

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"Asians have higher IQ than whites" - White supremacy, you're doing it wrong 🤔

 

I think they have achieved their goal of getting conversations started. I see Stefan posted his NZ speech on YouTube (48mins) and it was sitting at ~100k views. Without the controversy a whole load of people would have never known they existed. I've certainly watched more videos to understand the subject than I would have bothered with otherwise. 

He has a mix of ideas, some of which are straight forward and some of which are faulty conclusions. Disagreeing on one subject doesn't mean you automatically rule out everything they say and likewise having some good ideas doesn't mean everything you say is worthy of respect. 

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2 hours ago, Wertbag said:

"Asians have higher IQ than whites" - White supremacy, you're doing it wrong 🤔

 

I think they have achieved their goal of getting conversations started. I see Stefan posted his NZ speech on YouTube (48mins) and it was sitting at ~100k views. Without the controversy a whole load of people would have never known they existed. I've certainly watched more videos to understand the subject than I would have bothered with otherwise. 

He has a mix of ideas, some of which are straight forward and some of which are faulty conclusions. Disagreeing on one subject doesn't mean you automatically rule out everything they say and likewise having some good ideas doesn't mean everything you say is worthy of respect. 

 

Yeah they succeeded in getting a lot of shitty conversations started. I still need evidence that Molyneux has even read The Bell Curve, much less any other book on IQ.

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He's kind of like a drama queen doped up on steroids.

 

YouTube kind of obviously violated its own standards when some angry tweets made them reverse course.  However, as a private entity it can do more or less what it wants.  The question here is that should a private company be beholden to free speech once it becomes so integral to daily life as YouTube has proven to be.  Twitter and Facebook have the same questions to answer.  Can you just suspend or delete accounts because you don't like what they say and then reverse engineer some policy transgression?  These are kind of murky waters here.  As I've said before, I'm an absolutist when it comes to freedom of speech, but just because you have something to say doesn't mean people have an obligation to hear it.  I don't have any answers here, but I'm interested in hearing other's opinions on this.

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But Stefan, I thought under a libertarian utopia that the private owner class gets to do whatever it wants, which would include deleting some French-Canadian douchebag's video channel for any reason they choose. Did I misunderstand your "philosophy"?  Go start your own video network. It's the free enterprise system you always whine about, remember? 

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Molyneaux can always move to Washington, DC, and get rich grifting the conservative circles there. Especially since he's become a Trump sycophant. Hell, Trump would probably give Molyneaux a cabinet-level position right now. 

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2 hours ago, Blood said:

Molyneaux can always move to Washington, DC, and get rich grifting the conservative circles there. Especially since he's become a Trump sycophant. Hell, Trump would probably give Molyneaux a cabinet-level position right now. 

 

Sure why not? Chief political strategist maybe?

 

Notice Trumps comment about "low IQ" during the Ohio speech? That wasn't lost on me. He's obviously been tuned into the IQ average issues among conservatives concerning the Bell Curve. He tried to down play the comment by extending it to Pelosi. But I'm pretty sure that was a quick back peddle to try and cover up the comment quickly. And anyone who's unfamiliar with this topic probably wouldn't pick up on it at all. So, yeah, that was a little telling. 

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The latest news is that the police in Australia are trying to recover costs for the riot at their speaking event.  A terrible idea that I hope gets crushed:

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/we-broke-no-laws-defiant-right-wing-activist-lauren-southern-refuses-to-pay-police-dollar68000-for-providing-security-on-her-australian-tour/ar-BBMwr0G?li=AAaeXZz&ocid=ientp

Since when is the police force a user pays scheme?  "Sorry we can't help you, your membership is not up to date".

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24 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

The latest news is that the police in Australia are trying to recover costs for the riot at their speaking event.  A terrible idea that I hope gets crushed:

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/we-broke-no-laws-defiant-right-wing-activist-lauren-southern-refuses-to-pay-police-dollar68000-for-providing-security-on-her-australian-tour/ar-BBMwr0G?li=AAaeXZz&ocid=ientp

Since when is the police force a user pays scheme?  "Sorry we can't help you, your membership is not up to date".

 

I don't know about Australia, but here in the Land of the Free fire departments can charge you for services after car wrecks.  They try to fine the guilty party, but if it's a hit and run they'll be just as happy to charge the victim.  The police don't do that yet, but I wouldn't put it past them if they thought they could get away with it.  If the Victorian PD wants its money back, I'm with Southern: make the protesters pay.  If you show up for a fight, be prepared to cover the cost.

 

And yes, there could be a user pays scheme.  I remember several years back there was a house fire.  The people who owned the house hadn't paid protection money to the fire department, so they let it burn to the ground.  The only reason they showed up in the first place was to make sure the fire didn't spread to neighboring houses that did pay up.

 

They say Freedom has a cost, and frequently it's paid in cash.

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