SerenelyBlue

Ex Christians, a warning to you

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30 minutes ago, Bhim said:

 

SB, if it helps, remember that multiple religions teach that there is an eternal hell. If you practice Christianity, then now you need to worry about the Muslim hell. That's the problem with being afraid of hell; trying to figure out which one is real.

The only real hell is the one each of us create for ourselves here on earth, usually through piss-poor choices, but sometimes, as Blue's situation makes clear, through no fault of our own.

 

Even if hell were real, I'd rather go someplace where I'd be welcomed with open arms, than someplace where I'm going to get judged because my life fell short of somebody else's expectations.

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4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Even if hell were real, I'd rather go someplace where I'd be welcomed with open arms, than someplace where I'm going to get judged because my life fell short of somebody else's expectations.

 

I understand the sentiment. I think that's why Reformed Christians emphasize that hell consists of eternal conscious torment. The idea is that the pain you feel is physical, and is therefore the most undesirable experience conceivable, even to those of us who would regard an eternity with Jesus and unpleasant. This is what makes hell such a detestable doctrine, at least in my mind.

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57 minutes ago, Bhim said:

 

I understand the sentiment. I think that's why Reformed Christians emphasize that hell consists of eternal conscious torment. The idea is that the pain you feel is physical, and is therefore the most undesirable experience conceivable, even to those of us who would regard an eternity with Jesus and unpleasant. This is what makes hell such a detestable doctrine, at least in my mind.

I agree.  Hell is a cruel form of manipulation.  Using it against children should be considered abuse.

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27 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I agree.  Hell is a cruel form of manipulation.  Using it against children should be considered abuse.

 

At the church I attended in grad school after the PCA church failed, I was in the children's ministry (hey, don't judge 😂). No one ever taught the hell doctrine to the kids. I think at some level even the pastors knew how perverted it was.

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10 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

I am afraid to go to hell.  I am afraid of hell. 

 

Hell just doesn't make sense.

A man can tell someone they disagree with "Hey, I can understand why you'd believe that, but I just don't see it that way" without any anger or need to exact punishment.

If a man can be that magnanimous, how could a god be pettier?

 

Anger at differing views implies uncertainty and insecurity.

 

Surely a god would at least grant a painless oblivion to its failed creations. If it's a loving god it would make sense for it to try and fix them if it's capable.

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10 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

I go through the same shit over and over.  It is painful.  God has given me the gift of tongues and the gift to interpret them.  He told me lots of stuff.  I am afraid to go to hell.  I am afraid of hell. 

 

Then you need to approach this differently, as what you have been doing is clearly not easing your fear.  This is what I did:

  • First of all, I went out on a limb, and trusted that any gods that might exist were wise and sensible beings who would never be so cruel as to torture a mortal for eternity.
  • Secondly, I embraced the hell idea rather than trying to run away from it.  I took a vow about 10-11 years ago to choose hell rather than spend eternity with a god that would create such a place.

Amount of hell fear I have?  Zero.  I do get angry at people who use hellfire threats, but that's because it's a rude and abusive thing to say to someone.

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2 hours ago, Bhim said:

 

At the church I attended in grad school after the PCA church failed, I was in the children's ministry (hey, don't judge 😂). No one ever taught the hell doctrine to the kids. I think at some level even the pastors knew how perverted it was.

Lucky you.  I grew up with the knowledge that every fucking thing I did made the baby jesus cry and he was going to throw me into hell and everlasting damnation because of it.

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1 hour ago, ToHellWithMe said:

 

If it's a loving god it would make sense for it to try and fix them if it's capable.

An astute apologist would point to the cross as god's method of "fixing" us.  The problem overall is that we're not broken in the first place; but it gets difficult convincing people of that after years of indoctrination compounded by layers of defense mechanisms.  Fucking god virus.

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SB, I'm sorry you're going through this again. Remember, preaching to us won't help but a psychiatrist and a change in medication will. Get help, get better, okay?

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On 7/9/2018 at 10:01 AM, SerenelyBlue said:

You have fallen away from God and are causing others to fall with you.  God's judgement is fierce on those who lead His children astray.  "It will be better for you to be cast in a river with a millstone around your neck".  Turn back to your God and Saviour.

     Awww...You're a nice guy.  You should know better than to toss something like this our way.  It just makes us fighty. ;)  I'm mean, how is being killed in a river with a millstone around one's neck (I'm guessing the ancient version of the mobs "cement shoes" and "swim with da fishes, see") any different from being tossed into hell anyhow?  You're killed.  Then you're judged.  Then ???  Do "cement shoes" equate to not going to hell?  Seems odd.

 

     Anyhow, I'm sure you're having a bit of an off time.  If you come back around we'll be here.

 

          mwc

 

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Of course preaching to us won't help. And that brings comprehension to mind. Do you not comprehend the fact that we don't believe in hell because all evidence reveals it made up out of thin air as a religious / political means of socialization? And then mixed, and matched, and borrowed, and combined with various versions of afterlife punishment until finally making it to your particular version of it? Not even all christians believe in hell at all or even the same way from one another. 

 

What you should be doing is launching an effort to PROVE to us (and yourself) that (1) god exists, (2) the bible is factual, and (3) hell is real. 

 

@SerenelyBlue

 

All threats can come tail ending you establishing the three points listed above as factual. Come on, try and earn it. Let's do this. 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

What you should be doing is launching an effort to PROVE to us (and yourself) that (1) god exists, (2) the bible is factual, and (3) hell is real. 

 

1. I cannot prove that God exists, although it does seem highly unlikely that the universe and humans developed against all the odds.  And near death experiences where there is no brain activity makes you wonder about the afterlife.  I have a personal relationship with God.  I know He is real through experience.

2. The Bible isn't always factual.  It was written by human beings, who made errors and embellished on certain occasions.  Also the Adam and Eve story is symbolism.  Eating the fruit is symbolic of evolution coming to the stage where human beings gain moral awareness and are therefore subject to the wrath of God.  They lost their innocence.

3.  I don't believe in hell and neither do the jews.  Those that receive the Holy Spirit have eternal life with their Maker.  The rest cease to exist when they die.  My fear of hell is irrational due to past indoctrination.

You have to excuse my response speed.  I am typing on a 7 inch tablet.

 

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" God's judgement is fierce on those who lead His children astray. "

 

Fierce, how?

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18 minutes ago, midniterider said:

" God's judgement is fierce on those who lead His children astray. "

 

Fierce, how?

Very fierce.  You don't get to be part of the eternal spiritual unity of Christ and bride.  You get wiped out, missing out on an eternal bliss in the presence of God.

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SB, you seem to be getting a little more back to normal. Keep it up!

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31 minutes ago, florduh said:

SB, you seem to be getting a little more back to normal. Keep it up!

Thank you Florduh 😊

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8 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

1. I cannot prove that God exists, although it does seem highly unlikely that the universe and humans developed against all the odds.  And near death experiences where there is no brain activity makes you wonder about the afterlife.  I have a personal relationship with God.  I know He is real through experience.

 

Yes, you can not prove god exists.

 

But no, it doesn't seem highly unlikely that the universe developed against all odds. While seeking the meaning of life and existence, I once came to a head to head with a pantheist friend who answered the ultimate question, "why does existence even exist to begin with." It was best answer I've ever heard. He said, "existence exists because the absolute non-existence of anything at all is impossible." It's impossible because something exists right now. You can't go back wards to the absolute non-existence of anything at all. Something has always been in order for existence to be taking place now. And something is simply existence itself, the existence of something which seems necessarily perpetual and constant. 

 

So either way, naturalism or supernaturalism the playing field is equal - something has always existed. The reason for existence, is because otherwise is impossible. It's not shocking or against all odds that we exist, it's actually not shocking at all and pretty much a given, all things considered. 

 

Now, of these two options, supernatural or natural, only one is the simplest explanation for reality. Natural existence, the realms of universe and multiverse, etc., have always existed, the realms themselves.  Or a supernatural god has always existed, who is not identical to the realms of existence or heavens, which also had to always exist in order for the god to have always existed "within." 

 

1) Natural realms of existence all the way out, eternal.

 

2) A god, and also realms of existence (heaven) for the god to exist in. 

 

The latter requires more assumptions. Assumptions which are not necessary to explain reality. And the least simplest explanation in comparison. 

 

If consciousness is an inherent part of the natural universe, then every move you make towards consciousness will fall in line with the 1) less assumptions option. The realms and consciousness go hand in hand when you dive down that rabbit hole. One big interconnected whole. 

 

The other way is realms (heavens), a god separate from the realms (heavens), and consciousness separate from the god and the realms (heavens). In short, "goddit," is never the simplest explanation, and it's not necessary to explain reality, the universe, life nor consciousness within the natural universe. 

 

As to a personal relationship, you're on par with a personal relationship to Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or any other fairy being one fancies thinking that they have a personal relationship with. It's all within the context of make believe. So this doesn't give you any leg up in the matter. 

 

8 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

2. The Bible isn't always factual.  It was written by human beings, who made errors and embellished on certain occasions.  Also the Adam and Eve story is symbolism.  Eating the fruit is symbolic of evolution coming to the stage where human beings gain moral awareness and are therefore subject to the wrath of God.  They lost their innocence.

 

And being that the bible is errant, and you know this, what I've noted above translates down into this issue as well. Genesis is not symbolic of anything to do with evolution. The writers of Genesis, as you know, were errant human beings living in the bronze age who had not a clue about the evolution of life on earth, hence the contradicting stories of creation. That's liberal christian mumbo jumbo that we actually specialize around here in dismantling. Haven't you read through our threads about the book of Genesis being completely dismantled both the conservative and liberal interpretive ways? We've laid waste to both options many times over. Let me know if you need the relevant links where these pages long threads have gone down in the science and theology sections. 

 

Below is Genesis 1:1 dismantled from the outset, through philosophy and up to date theoretical physics, and then proceeded through every other verse thereafter. 

 

8 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

3.  I don't believe in hell and neither do the jews.  Those that receive the Holy Spirit have eternal life with their Maker.  The rest cease to exist when they die.  My fear of hell is irrational due to past indoctrination.

You have to excuse my response speed.  I am typing on a 7 inch tablet.

 

Great, then you have nothing to fear and nothing to threaten others with. Maybe the end of this episode is in sight. 

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Thank you for your explanations @Joshpantera

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14 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

Very fierce.  You don't get to be part of the eternal spiritual unity of Christ and bride.  You get wiped out, missing out on an eternal bliss in the presence of God.

     Oh.  So no hell?  Just nothing?  Like before I was born?

 

     That's okay then.

 

     I'm cool with missing out on "bliss."  I'm guessing that's supposed to be something great but I the best I can come up with is sustaining an orgasm for eternity and I'm perfectly fine with not doing that.  In fact, I'd prefer to simply not exist than have to endure anything close to that.

 

          mwc

 

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"It will be better for you to be cast in a river with a millstone around your neck". 

     I know I commented on this before but I was just thinking about this and I'm wondering why this most horrific punishment laid out by jesus happens to be drowning and not crucifixion?

 

     Was jesus trying to be cool and dole out the second worse punishment here?  Like he was thinking crucifixion but he knew that was too much so dialed it back?  Or maybe he wanted to save that for himself so everyone in the future would be super impressed (everyone forgets about those two thieves who also got crucified and outlived him so got the additional leg breakings).

 

     I'm just curious what the deal is with this punishment.  To just be drowned as sort of the ultimate punishment, essentially the counter-point to losing salvation, seems sort of anti-climactic.  Like, really that's it?  Sure, it sucks but, meh.

 

          mwc

 

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To tell you the truth, the Spirit of the Lord has been very vague to me about whether there is a hell or not.  I am not positive as to what it entails.

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9 minutes ago, SerenelyBlue said:

To tell you the truth, the Spirit of the Lord has been very vague to me about whether there is a hell or not.  I am not positive as to what it entails.

 

If the creator of the universe wanted to tell you something, don’t you think he would be able to communicate clearly?  Isn’t it possible that you are projecting your own thoughts and seeing them as coming from outside?  You wouldn’t be the first person to experience this. 

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1 hour ago, SerenelyBlue said:

To tell you the truth, the Spirit of the Lord has been very vague to me about whether there is a hell or not.  I am not positive as to what it entails.

So, your god knows that you are terrified of going to hell; but he can't be bothered to offer even the small comfort of a straightforward description of it.  Why would you love a god like that?

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On 7/9/2018 at 1:01 PM, SerenelyBlue said:

You have fallen away from God and are causing others to fall with you.  God's judgement is fierce on those who lead His children astray.  "It will be better for you to be cast in a river with a millstone around your neck".  Turn back to your God and Saviour.

 

That's totally hilarious. (I'd call it a Trumpian statement lol)

 

The only way to 'fall with us' is to use your head (judgement) and not be a sheep. Think of it as falling into a bubbly Jacuzzi.

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3 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

To tell you the truth, the Spirit of the Lord has been very vague to me about whether there is a hell or not.  I am not positive as to what it entails.

Those voices are not the Spirit of the Lord, please seriously seek help.

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