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Daffodil

Hate Trump, but leaning right. Lefties, help me see it your way.

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2 hours ago, Daffodil said:

Another thing that concerns me about the left is the seemingly blind acceptance/defense of Muslims despite the messed up stuff in that religion.  I know not every Muslim partakes in terrorism or female genital mutilation or the suppression of women, but any time someone dares to bring those issues up or criticize what the Koran may say about it or what Muhammed actually did (apparently marrying a 12-year-old?), that person is shot down as a racist without any answer to their criticism.  There's no, "Well, yes there are aspects of the religion that some adherents practice that are questionable, but you can't accuse every Muslim of doing those things".  I would accept that response as at least acknowledging that there are issues.  But all you get is "You're a racist!" and "Not all Muslims!"  and "Those aren't real Muslims!" or even "Those are cultural standards within certain areas, not from Islam!"  It is especially galling when feminists side with Muslims and defend what appears to the rest of the world to be suppression of women as somehow being Muslim feminism because the women choose to dress that way.  WTF!?

 

 

This drives me nuts. Especially the new crap of calling Islam a feminist religion. I'm probably biased because the first person I knew that had grown up in a Muslim culture was an ex-Muslim girl who claimed it was an oppressive and sexist religion and culture which was why she expatriated. There are still women forced to dress that way. Of the women who are choosing to dress that way, it's because they feel it's virtuous and pleasing to god. At it's most innocuous level it's a misguided attempt to virtue signal. So they actively worship a god that is pleased from the sexist double standard in attire? That's the better interpretation? This is feminist? I've noticed among leftist atheists, if I say something negative about some verse in the Bible, they agree with me without hesitation. If I say something negative about something similar in the Quran they'll defend it in the same apologetic manner a believing Christian defends bad verses the Bible. A weird double standard has developed where it's ok to criticize the Bible, but not the Quran. I argued with someone a long time about whether or not disliking Islam is racist. Basically, he said that since most Christians are white, it's ok to dislike Christianity because it's only disliking a religion without ulterior motives, but since Islam is mostly non-white it's impossible to disentangle disliking Islam with racism against non-whites. So I can dislike the Bible all I want, but if I criticize Islam, it's all thinly veiled racism. One thing I said I didn't like about Islam, he was quick to jump on and say that Christians believe the same thing. And I said, "Yeah, and you agreed with me when I criticized Christianity for that, but when it's Islam you defend it. Pointing out the thing I don't like in Islam is exactly like the other thing I don't like in Christianity doesn't prove I'm being racist. It proves I dislike both!"

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46 minutes ago, Daffodil said:

 

Yes!  The movement across the south to remove all the confederate statues is such a touchy area.  It is really bizarre to put up monuments to the losers in a war - nobody else does that! - but at the same time, is there an effort to remove all trace of that part of our history?  Is that wise?  After all, history will repeat itself . . . Now I know there are memorials to holocaust victims that help to remind everyone of the horrors of that war.  Maybe there needs to be memorials to the horrors of slavery put in place of the confederate statues?

 

I notice you don't live in the South. The Civil War was fought almost exclusively in Southern States. The battlefields and monuments to their fallen soldiers are located in the South. Tourist don't travel to Northern States, except Penn. and a few other border states, to tour the battlefields. The folks in the South look very differently at those Statues because they were erected to honor and commemorate their fallen heros. The ones that gave their lives to defend their homeland. Why they were defending the homeland is a separate issue and has nothing to do with why the statues were erected. 

 

Think about the reaction if Japan demanded the statue of the Marines raising the American Flag on Iwa Jima, in Washington DC, memorializing our fallen soldiers be taken down because it offended them? The removal of the statues in the South is about power not slavery. A minority wants to prove they have the power to force those statues to be taken down,....and they have successfully proven that they do indeed have that power in our present day political climate. 

 

I'm not from the South, but I've lived in the South for about 52 years now, so I have a good understanding of the Southern Culture. Listening and watching the news I don't think the rest of the country understands why the statues were put up in the first place. 

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This guy is saying a lot of what i'm thinking, but better.

 

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40 minutes ago, Geezer said:

 

I notice you don't live in the South. The Civil War was fought almost exclusively in Southern States. The battlefields and monuments to their fallen soldiers are located in the South. Tourist don't travel to Northern States, except Penn. and a few other border states, to tour the battlefields. The folks in the South look very differently at those Statues because they were erected to honor and commemorate their fallen heros. The ones that gave their lives to defend their homeland. Why they were defending the homeland is a separate issue and has nothing to do with why the statues were erected. 

 

Think about the reaction if Japan demanded the statue of the Marines raising the American Flag on Iwa Jima, in Washington DC, memorializing our fallen soldiers be taken down because it offended them? The removal of the statues in the South is about power not slavery. A minority wants to prove they have the power to force those statues to be taken down,....and they have successfully proven that they do indeed have that power in our present day political climate. 

 

I'm not from the South, but I've lived in the South for about 52 years now, so I have a good understanding of the Southern Culture. Listening and watching the news I don't think the rest of the country understands why the statues were put up in the first place. 

 

I don't want to get into a derailing disagreement with you, but I do disagree.  Prior to the turn of the century, most memorials were located in cemetaries and were for lost loved ones.  Around the turn of the century (the Jim Crow era) was when the largest group of them were erected.  I second big chunk were erected in the 1950's and 1960's (the Civil Rights era).  In both cases, the memorials expressed the glory and power of the Confederacy.  Coincidence?  I doubt it.  The Confederate flag was almost non-existent until right after WWII (and right before the Civil Rights era).  Coincidence?  I doubt it.  

 

About the memorials:

 

http://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments

 

About the Confederate flag:

 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150626-confederate-flag-civil-rights-movement-war-history/

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Some here are so far to the right they think I'm a Marxist. These days anyone slightly to the right or left of dead center is considered extremist.

 

Anyway, both left and right, Democrats and Republicans, have created both good and bad for us. Of course all bets are off with Trump, but I refer to normal politics in America. This isn't it. In response to the insanity of Republican lawmakers following their piper into the abyss the Democratic Party has lost their way with their own brand of crazy and ineptitude.

 

Not meeting your request to help you "see it your way" I would just point out that our economy traditionally does better under Democratic rule. Even Trump has said so. The question is, why is this the case? Well, I'm no more of an economist than Trump, but I have my suspicions. Republicans, starting big time under Reagan, are in the business of improving the economic standing of the wealthy and their corporations. Trump has thrown that into overdrive. An overall good economy requires a work force paid well enough to actually buy products and services and a fair tax contribution from the corporations and individuals wealthy enough to avail themselves of loopholes. 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/11/07/trump-is-right-about-one-thing-the-economy-does-better-under-the-democrats/#2bb37d586786

 

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15 minutes ago, florduh said:

Some here are so far to the right they think I'm a Marxist. These days anyone slightly to the right or left of dead center is considered extremist.

 

Anyway, both left and right, Democrats and Republicans, have created both good and bad for us. Of course all bets are off with Trump, but I refer to normal politics in America. This isn't it. In response to the insanity of Republican lawmakers following their piper into the abyss the Democratic Party has lost their way with their own brand of crazy and ineptitude.

 

Not meeting your request to help you "see it your way" I would just point out that our economy traditionally does better under Democratic rule. Even Trump has said so. The question is, why is this the case? Well, I'm no more of an economist than Trump, but I have my suspicions. Republicans, starting big time under Reagan, are in the business of improving the economic standing of the wealthy and their corporations. Trump has thrown that into overdrive. An overall good economy requires a work force paid well enough to actually buy products and services and a fair tax contribution from the corporations and individuals wealthy enough to avail themselves of loopholes. 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/11/07/trump-is-right-about-one-thing-the-economy-does-better-under-the-democrats/#2bb37d586786

 

 

I agree to an extent.  Focusing on the wealthy and the letting the rest of us fall away will ultimately hurt the wealthy themselves.  If we can't afford to buy what they are selling/producing, their wealth will eventually dissolve away!  It's actually in their best interests in the long run to support the rest of us in some way.  Of course they aren't known for thinking about things in the long term.  I'm just not sure that I would trust much to the current crop of democrats.

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7 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

Democrats as you said are not the savior, they too often just serve corporate interests which is why I opposed Hillary so fervently as she is bought by Wall Street.  

Many politicians from both parties have taken corporate and special interest money. Currently, though, the Republicans have made it their Prime Directive. The only cure is to outlaw lobbyists, kickbacks and sweetheart deals, but guess who would have to make and implement such laws?

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12 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

I literally just had this thought a few minutes ago.  Hillary was actually always Center-Right, kind of like America's Merkel, who heads a German Center-Right party.  The Center-Right has kind of reigned in the West for a long time, and since the establishment is Center-Right primarily, essentially everything Left of them is now Left, when most of it is merely to the Left of them.

 

Indeed, this isn't normal business as usual.  I feel like I am taking crazy pills when I see all the madness Trump is unleashing on the world and this country and people are coming here saying the Left is the problem, incessantly.  Yuppie little college kids don't have power, the orange man in the Oval Office does however.

 

Because under Republican administrations, the bottom of society begins to fall out and that impacts demand for goods, because so many people are falling into poverty and unable to keep up with consumption.  Supply side economics which Conservatives have practices (aka Trickle-Down economics), does not work and it has created the most unequal society in the history of the planet, including what is now one of the least mobile economies in the advanced world.  Democrats as you said are not the savior, they too often just serve corporate interests which is why I opposed Hillary so fervently as she is bought by Wall Street.  

 

I saw something yesterday that said some leftists are calling Bernie Sanders a centrist!!!  :twitch:

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33 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

If you mine Twitter, you can find anything you want.  Seek a higher vantage point.

 

I'm not on Twitter.

 

Edited to add:  Or Facebook, or Snapchat, or anything else out there right now except Instagram in which I post knitting stuff I've completed and look at other people's knitting (oh, and alpacas.  They're so cute!)  I literally avoid anything remotely political on any of that stuff.  If you want to criticize my YouTube viewing habits, that's cool by me!

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2 hours ago, Daffodil said:

 

I don't want to get into a derailing disagreement with you, but I do disagree.  Prior to the turn of the century, most memorials were located in cemetaries and were for lost loved ones.  Around the turn of the century (the Jim Crow era) was when the largest group of them were erected.  I second big chunk were erected in the 1950's and 1960's (the Civil Rights era).  In both cases, the memorials expressed the glory and power of the Confederacy.  Coincidence?  I doubt it.  The Confederate flag was almost non-existent until right after WWII (and right before the Civil Rights era).  Coincidence?  I doubt it.  

 

About the memorials:

 

http://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments

 

About the Confederate flag:

 

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150626-confederate-flag-civil-rights-movement-war-history/

 

I like you Daffy and I assure you I don't want get "into" with you or anyone else.  I am simply noting that folks born and raised in the Deep South see this issue differently than people in other parts of the country. I am simply noting why they see it differently. These statues have mostly been ignored for the last 50 or so years by everybody.  

 

Its kind of like the point Winston Churchill made in WWII. He noted he could lay his cane down anywhere he wanted and it would make no difference to anyone,  unless someone told him he had to put it in a certain place and lay it down in a certain way.

 

The statues were basically ignored until someone decided to make them an issue. Once someone decided they had to come down then they suddenly became an important part of the culture again. This is more about political power than anything else and that was my intended point. Once the statues came down folks calmed down and went about their business as usual. 

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41 minutes ago, Geezer said:

 

I like you Daffy and I assure you I don't want get "into" with you or anyone else.  I am simply noting that folks born and raised in the Deep South see this issue differently than people in other parts of the country. I am simply noting why they see it differently. These statues have mostly been ignored for the last 50 or so years by everybody.  

 

Its kind of like the point Winston Churchill made in WWII. He noted he could lay his cane down anywhere he wanted and it would make no difference to anyone,  unless someone told him he had to put it in a certain place and lay it down in a certain way.

 

The statues were basically ignored until someone decided to make them an issue. Once someone decided they had to come down then they suddenly became an important part of the culture again. This is more about political power than anything else and that was my intended point. Once the statues came down folks calmed down and went about their business as usual. 

 

You might be right, but I can't help but wonder what it is like to be a black kid taken on one of those ubiquitous school field trips where he is taken to historical sites and he hear's, " And to your right is a monument to Stonewall Jackson, one of the south's greatest military heroes!"  He goes home and tells mom and dad he saw a statue of Stonewall Jackson and is then told how HIS parents view that statue.  

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10 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

Mentioned this because the video you posted featured a guys scrolling through Twitter and reading through comments as evidence of the Left consuming itself.  You also mentioned that you heard this third person, so it may too have been born on social media.  Content from these platforms very often makes its way to YouTube, which has become the main political recruitment tool now.

 

Ah, I see.  Sorry I misunderstood your meaning.  Actually that guy in the video likes to point out how ridiculously random are the tweets used in a lot of stories.  It's as if they pick the most off-the-wall tweets of absolute nobodies just to stir things up.

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16 hours ago, florduh said:

Some here are so far to the right they think I'm a Marxist. These days anyone slightly to the right or left of dead center is considered extremist.

 

I think you're right about everyone being viewed as extremist. Is it possible that you are assuming people think you're a Marxist? It feels like you have put many of us in a "so far to the right" camp to begin with, when we're centrists too! If someone called you a Marxist, I must have missed it. 

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12 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

It is clear who is of the far right and who the centrists are to me.  The thing that people don't realize is that the Right is targeting the center to try and move it their direction.

 

So what if they are? Do you really think the Left doesn't have their own targets? 

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On 7/11/2018 at 12:38 AM, Daffodil said:

Ok, I'm a little obsessed with politics right now, which I hate, but I can't let it go.  I really despise Trump, but I'm finding myself leaning right.  This is long, and I do apologize.  Thank you for your time if you choose to read this.  Here are my thoughts:

 

I believed that the Scandinavian countries were on the right track with providing free health care, subsidized housing for everyone who couldn't afford it, parental leave that lasts a full year, etc.  It seems perfect!  Why can't we do that?  Well, it occurred to me when Trump started complaining about NATO and European nations not using some of their GDP to build their own militaries and relying on the US while simultaneously not giving us much in return, that this is the reason the Scandinavian countries and the rest of Europe to a lesser extent are able to provide so much to the social infrastructure of their countries.  They are using next to nothing of their GDP on their militaries!  And we are like the Ghostbusters of the world.  Got a problem?  Call the US!  Of course after we come and "help" we are then lambasted by the very people who called us for doing it all "wrong".  Nice.

  

I would expect that the leftist response would be that we should stop "invading" other countries and trying to impose our values on them.  I actually agree, but if we suddenly dropped out of the game now, what would happen?  I'm genuinely asking because I don't know.  I also expect that the left would say that a good portion of the world's, especially the middle east's, problems were started because of our meddling there.  I have to disagree.  That part of the world has been at war with itself since far before America came into existence.  We certainly may have exacerbated it, but so did other nations.  If I'm not mistaken, the British were the ones who had the bright idea of dividing India and Pakistan to try to alleviate some of the Hindu/Muslim warfare in that area.  How's that working out for them?  European powers were all over the middle east long before we came on the scene, and yet somehow all that conflict is our fault?  The different Muslim sects just don't get along and I don't think that has anything at all to do with us, and if we dropped out right this minute, they would still be battling it out for control.  I just don't get it.

  

On the home front, I think I am a social libertarian (correct me if my definition isn't quite right).  I believe people should be able to do what they want and say what they want as long as it does not hurt anyone else.  Of course the definition of "hurt" is debatable, but that's where I stand.  However, the Left seems to be against letting people do and say what they want if it does not fit their standards.  Isn't that a bit conservative of them?  I thought the Left was about freedom and individualism and anti-authoritarianism.  Wait, see I think I'm mixing things up here.  I think of the 60's free love and anti-authoritarianism and such as being left-leaning, but maybe not?  Has it changed?  Freedom and individualism is more of a conservative thing now, but . . .  I am genuinely confused.

 

 Something I saw today said that Millenials are abandoning the DNC.  If true, and I'm not saying it is or isn't as I don't know anymore how to verify anything these days, then I'm not terribly surprised.  The Democrats seem to have whole-heartedly embraced identity politics with an underlying emphasis on everything wrong with the world today being the fault of white men.  Well, an awful lot of Millenials are white men!  Do the Democrats really believe there are enough minorities and women and LGBTQ folks and the lot to get them into the White House?  They are actively alienating large voting blocks with their identity politics and hatred of white men.  How is that going to work for them come 2020?  I'm even seeing some stirrings about Hillary trying for the Presidency for a third time!  Seriously?!?  As much as I dislike Trump, I'm afraid the left/Democrats are doing nothing to keep him from getting a second term.  

  

I would appreciate a robust and polite discussion if anyone is interested.  If not, no worries.  I'll just move along.  😊

 

 

Whatever party is out there you need to logically the following rules to use as a guide: Decency, respect and being as close to truthful as possible.

 

But then... who are you, what fits your agenda and are you easily influenced (fox/cnn news)  ?

 

Evangelists supporting Trump sacrificed decency and respect to bring christian values, Christmas and Jesus back.

Racists supported Trump for his immigration and opinions on Latinos and blacks.

Misogynists will agree with evangelical concerns about abortion and the role of women in society.

etc...

 

If you're urban, college educated... you're basically a liberal intellectual that figures this stuff out. If your name is Strzok you need to get up to speed with texting on government owned cells and confidentiality.

Calling rural hicks 'uneducated hillbilly's with guns'  is playing in Trump's field.

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48 minutes ago, REBOOT said:

Evangelists supporting Trump sacrificed decency and respect to bring christian values, Christmas and Jesus back.

Racists supported Trump for his immigration and opinions on Latinos and blacks.

Misogynists will agree with evangelical concerns about abortion and the role of women in society.

etc...

 

So what about all the other people who aren't racist or misogynist who supported Trump?

 

You don't have to be racist to have a conservative opinion on immigration, you don't have to be misogynist to have opinions on abortion or the role of women in society. So tired of this narrative and I'm not even "on the right."

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28 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

So what about all the other people who aren't racist or misogynist who supported Trump?

 

You don't have to be racist to have a conservative opinion on immigration, you don't have to be misogynist to have opinions on abortion or the role of women in society. So tired of this narrative and I'm not even "on the right."

I hear that a lot from racists I personally know. 

 

Here's the problem. Trump is extreme in the extreme. He campaigns on a platform of hatred, exclusion, fear and literal racism. His "base" get the message clearly. Conservatives and regular Republicans filter his extreme message so they can live with it. The fact that Trump is so hateful, insulting and deliberately divisive inclines those who won't tolerate hate rhetoric to view his supporters as agreeing with him and all his extreme views. But then, people do support the politicians they agree with, don't they? If you're in the same cheering section as David Duke, expect a little shit to rub off on you. 

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47 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

So what about all the other people who aren't racist or misogynist who supported Trump?

  

You don't have to be racist to have a conservative opinion on immigration, you don't have to be misogynist to have opinions on abortion or the role of women in society. So tired of this narrative and I'm not even "on the right."

 

Yeah.... deep disappointment they must be feeling.

They didn't understand that we live in a global village while Trump lives in fantasy New York.

They didn't understand that he wanted to create his own swamp with his own peeps.

They maybe never read historical precedent for this type of populism. (Heil... you know who)

They understood that his supremacist and distorted version of capitalism had roots in a post WWII fantasy land that privileged a white elite.

Making america great again means reversing 40 years of social progress and tolerance.

 

In the end Trump is a quick road back to a cold war. But this time its dictator vs dictator.

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3 minutes ago, florduh said:

I hear that a lot from racists I personally know. 

 

Here's the problem. Trump is extreme in the extreme. He campaigns on a platform of hatred, exclusion, fear and literal racism. His "base" get the message clearly. Conservatives and regular Republicans filter his extreme message so they can live with it. The fact that Trump is so hateful, insulting and deliberately divisive inclines those who won't tolerate hate rhetoric to view his supporters as agreeing with him and all his extreme views. But then, people do support the politicians they agree with, don't they? If you're in the same cheering section as David Duke, expect a little shit to rub off on you. 

 

Are these self-claimed racists or labels by others? Because.....I don't know "a lot of racists" nor would I choose to actively hang out with them if they were, not sure why you would either. If you don't hang out or know them well, perhaps you are misguided about their intentions...?

 

I don't feel like arguing with you on this, lol, we seem to know very different Trump voters. Everyone I know who voted for Trump thinks he's a big, orange joke who needs to fix his hair and stop tweeting nonsense and who thought he was less of a problem than Hillary and her pandering rhetoric. His "base" seem to be ultimately amused by him or apathetic towards him and his ability to piss off people who assume he's racist. Before he ran, no one called him any of these things. I find it personally strange that he is suddenly a hateful racist when he takes a GOP platform against the democrats.

 

I'm no Trump apologist. He annoys the fuck out of me most days. I just don't really care about him or what the left says about him anymore. I don't find that my personal life feels much different than Obama. It seems to me his greatest flaw is not being PC, because much of what he says I simply think is just "not up to date" or "socially kosher," it's like everyone just kinda rolls their eyes when he talks. Maybe that's just me lol.

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4 hours ago, TrueScotsman said:

It is clear who is of the far right and who the centrists are to me.  The thing that people don't realize is that the Right is targeting the center to try and move it their direction.

 

Well it seems to me the Left should be doing that too!  If they could moderate some of their more extremist views, or at least disavow them (and likewise the Right should do the same), my ears would perk up!

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1 hour ago, REBOOT said:

 

Whatever party is out there you need to logically the following rules to use as a guide: Decency, respect and being as close to truthful as possible.

 

But then... who are you, what fits your agenda and are you easily influenced (fox/cnn news)  ?

 

Evangelists supporting Trump sacrificed decency and respect to bring christian values, Christmas and Jesus back.

Racists supported Trump for his immigration and opinions on Latinos and blacks.

Misogynists will agree with evangelical concerns about abortion and the role of women in society.

etc...

 

If you're urban, college educated... you're basically a liberal intellectual that figures this stuff out. If your name is Strzok you need to get up to speed with texting on government owned cells and confidentiality.

Calling rural hicks 'uneducated hillbilly's with guns'  is playing in Trump's field.

 

I have to agree with Agnostic on this one - lumping everyone who wants a bit of regulation on immigration in with the racists that want to build a wall is unfair.  Acknowledging that men do indeed get the raw end of the stick in some areas (notably in child custody arrangements and sentencing) does not make one misogynistic.  I am neither urban nor rural, but suburban, midwestern, married, unemployed, college-educated, mother, atheist.  How, exactly, would you classify me?  

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28 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

I'm no Trump apologist.

But would you vote for him again?

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1 minute ago, Daffodil said:

 

I have to agree with Agnostic on this one - lumping everyone who wants a bit of regulation on immigration in with the racists that want to build a wall is unfair.  Acknowledging that men do indeed get the raw end of the stick in some areas (notably in child custody arrangements and sentencing) does not make one misogynistic.  I am neither urban nor rural, but suburban, midwestern, married, unemployed, college-educated, mother, atheist.  How, exactly, would you classify me?  

 

Unemployed means you might be a victim of globalization, robotics, or whatever... might have voted Trump to improve your situation. Perhaps blaming foreigners like Trump.

I'd say Trump offered solutions that could help you (and many others) financially to get you to retirement age. In other words, Trump was a quick, return to the past, fix... regardless of the potential planetary damage.

 

You'd fit in the group that sees change as a menace instead of a challenge while not realizing that protectionism is the worst reflex in a global village. ... Just an opinion lol

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46 minutes ago, florduh said:

I hear that a lot from racists I personally know. 

 

Here's the problem. Trump is extreme in the extreme. He campaigns on a platform of hatred, exclusion, fear and literal racism. His "base" get the message clearly. Conservatives and regular Republicans filter his extreme message so they can live with it. The fact that Trump is so hateful, insulting and deliberately divisive inclines those who won't tolerate hate rhetoric to view his supporters as agreeing with him and all his extreme views. But then, people do support the politicians they agree with, don't they? If you're in the same cheering section as David Duke, expect a little shit to rub off on you. 

 

You and Reboot have a very black and white view of things here.  I really can't stand Trump and don't support his extremist views.  I think building a wall is an idiotic idea, but I also think having no borders at all is an equally idiotic idea.  We can't just let anybody in - Mexico is such a corrupt and dangerous nation, anyone with any sense would leave and come to us in a heart beat if we had no borders.  How would we then support such a huge influx of people?  Where would they live?  Go to school? Who would pay for the massively increased burden on our healthcare?  There has to be a middle ground that we can all agree on.  Trump isn't there, but neither would Hillary have been.  Florduh, you're getting dangerously close to calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a racist.  Do you really think that?

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1 minute ago, florduh said:

But would you vote for him again?

 

.......Didn't vote for him the first time, not that it's any of your business lol. Thought I made that clear in another post. 

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