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Goodbye Jesus

The devil tricked you into believing that your intellect is superior to God's message


SerenelyBlue

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24 minutes ago, end3 said:

Here's the interesting part.  You've decided that you are a part of this group, the non-elect hell group, and am more certain in THAT belief because God/ God's word said so, that there exists a group, but yet claim that God never talked to you in the first place?

 

How can you essentially believe on one aspect yet not another.

They're your groups, not real groups. We're trying to play by your rules and your reality. Of course we don't believe any of it to be factually true, but in your world (Christianity) your book says God predestined people, so it would follow that believers were predestined to believe and non believers were predestined to not believe. If one simply can't believe it's not a choice for disbelief. Easy peasy.

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Goodbye Jesus

     What if this "elect" stuff makes god like Thanos (see the last Avengers movie if you're lost)?  So that whether you truly believe, or not, it's random (or in this case random from our point of view).  So believers, non-believers, and everyone in-between goes up...and...the same equally goes down?  Doesn't matter from our point of view.  You gets what you gets no matter what since it was all decided way back before day 1.

 

     The whole idea of being chosen out to believe now just goes out the window.  You're just chosen.  Belief is just something anyone can do but, except for coincidence, it doesn't mean anything in the end.

 

          mwc

 

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47 minutes ago, end3 said:

How can you essentially believe on one aspect yet not another.

 

I think you are confusing belief with sticking to commonly held presuppositions.

 

I can be consistent about Santa Claus' qualities while discussing Santa Claus. It would be funny if you asked me how I can believe he is old and bearded when I don't even believe he exists. No, I don't believe either but if you want to play with another definition, you have to state that definition or I'll have to work with common assumptions.

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1 hour ago, end3 said:

I'm thinking we can practice faith without belief.  Surely there are Christians that have a difficult time with belief on occasion.  Not sure why your predestination has already been finalized.  

 

I don't have the answer on this one Prof. 

This is a cop-out, End3; and you know it.  You DO know why my predestination has been finalized; because I just showed you from your own book how your own god has finalized it.  You're trying to take the diplomatic way out, to distance yourself from the more hateful things about your religion. 

 

The hard truth is that god does NOT love everyone.

 

You can try to separate faith from belief all day long, though you'd do better to start separating fact from fiction.  But the only thing that is going to fill the gaps for you will be your imagination.  For now, you're simply a member of Westboro trying to reassure "fags" that god still lives them somehow despite what the bible actually says.

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18 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You DO know why my predestination has been finalized; because I just showed you from your own book how your own god has finalized it. 

You don't know which way it has been finalized, though, because from the temporal perspective it has not been finalized yet.

 

18 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The hard truth is that god does NOT love everyone. 

Under your assumptions about God. Perhaps end3 is working under different ones. Also, that "hard truth" makes it sound as if you're not simply working under intellectual assumptions but some faith. Maybe I spoke too hastily in my previous post, lol.

 

18 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You can try to separate faith from belief all day long

Faith and belief are separate.

You can have faith that if there's a god he is good, even if you don't really believe there is a god.

Or, I guess, you can also have faith that if there's a god he is evil, even if you don't really believe there is a god.

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

They're your groups, not real groups. We're trying to play by your rules and your reality. Of course we don't believe any of it to be factually true, but in your world (Christianity) your book says God predestined people, so it would follow that believers were predestined to believe and non believers were predestined to not believe. If one simply can't believe it's not a choice for disbelief. Easy peasy.

The effects of "not real groups" are real. 

Just saying in times of doubt or non-belief, a person can remain faithful.  I expect some days the non-belief to faith ratio is 99:1. 

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46 minutes ago, ToHellWithMe said:

 

I think you are confusing belief with sticking to commonly held presuppositions.

 

I can be consistent about Santa Claus' qualities while discussing Santa Claus. It would be funny if you asked me how I can believe he is old and bearded when I don't even believe he exists. No, I don't believe either but if you want to play with another definition, you have to state that definition or I'll have to work with common assumptions.

I think the argument that goes with that is Christ saying "it's better that I go"......meaning that when he left as a human, touching only those lives he was in contact with,  he touches so many more Spiritually. 

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43 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This is a cop-out, End3; and you know it.  You DO know why my predestination has been finalized; because I just showed you from your own book how your own god has finalized it.  You're trying to take the diplomatic way out, to distance yourself from the more hateful things about your religion. 

 

The hard truth is that god does NOT love everyone.

 

You can try to separate faith from belief all day long, though you'd do better to start separating fact from fiction.  But the only thing that is going to fill the gaps for you will be your imagination.  For now, you're simply a member of Westboro trying to reassure "fags" that god still lives them somehow despite what the bible actually says.

No sir, trying to be nice here.....you have NO valid reasoning that you've noted for the potential of restored belief and faith other than determining yourself that your fate is sealed.

 

I've given you suggestions, but you haven't taken any of them.  You haven't demonstrated in any manner that your fate is sealed.

You're copping out with belief and faith....

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@end3 It sounds like you are trying to convince people of a possibility of salvation from a damnation they actually don't believe in.

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9 minutes ago, DestinyTurtle said:

@end3 It sounds like you are trying to convince people of a possibility of salvation from a damnation they actually don't believe in.

Lol....we only argue for sport now DT.  I would save Redneck Jr. and he would save my children I'm sure, but I'd only save his sorry ass if he didn't weight to much and I didn't have to listen to him bitch... oh, and if he had beer. 

 

Glad you're in the conversation...

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9 minutes ago, end3 said:

Lol....we only argue for sport now DT.  I would save Redneck Jr. and he would save my children I'm sure, but I'd only save his sorry ass if he didn't weight to much and I didn't have to listen to him bitch... oh, and if he had beer. 

 

Glad you're in the conversation...

Oh! If it's for sport then I guess it makes sense. We all have a lot to vent, and an argument can suffice.

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2 hours ago, end3 said:

No sir, trying to be nice here.....you have NO valid reasoning that you've noted for the potential of restored belief and faith other than determining yourself that your fate is sealed.

 

I've given you suggestions, but you haven't taken any of them.  You haven't demonstrated in any manner that your fate is sealed.

You're copping out with belief and faith....

I think you're misunderstanding my approach, precisely as sdelsolray predicted you would.  You should know me well enough by now to know that I believe in predestination no more than I believe in gods, angels, devils, or leprechauns.

 

You asked what keeps us from being elect; I answered.  You then asked for further elucidation.  I gave it from scripture, in an effort to demonstrate to you how untenable christian beliefs are in light of what the bible actually says (and it plainly states that "from the foundation of the world" certain people are chosen, therefore, by default, certain ones are condemned).  This is the crux of the matter.  This is the demonstration, per christian doctrine, that my fate is sealed.  It is sealed as the result of your god's choice, per scripture.  Either you believe in the scripture or you don't.  I don't; and we both know that.

 

I do agree that there is no VALID reason for the potential of restored belief, any more than there would be for restored belief in Santa Claus or the Loch Ness Monster.  The scripture is as mythical as they; as is predestination, hell, or any other dogmatic tradition.  This is not to say that others cannot find their own reasons for believing again, which they might consider valid; but there are plenty of scriptures that state that the reprobate cannot come back to god.  So, even their return to the fold would be dubious, according to the bible, anyway.

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3 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

You don't know which way it has been finalized, though, because from the temporal perspective it has not been finalized yet.

Why would it matter which way it has been finalized, if the end result remains the same?

 

3 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

Under your assumptions about God. Perhaps end3 is working under different ones. Also, that "hard truth" makes it sound as if you're not simply working under intellectual assumptions but some faith. Maybe I spoke too hastily in my previous post, lol.

I make no assumptions about god beyond what is stated in the scriptures, which I posted, and which demonstrate that god chose his "elect" before he even created the earth.  If End3 has different assumptions than scripture, then perhaps he can provide scripture of his own to back it up.

 

Also, look into the eyes of a ten-year-old rape victim and you will see the "hard truth" for yourself.

 

3 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

Faith and belief are separate.

You can have faith that if there's a god he is good, even if you don't really believe there is a god.

Or, I guess, you can also have faith that if there's a god he is evil, even if you don't really believe there is a god.

On this we agree.

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I do agree that there is no VALID reason for the potential of restored belief, any more than there would be for restored belief in Santa Claus or the Loch Ness Monster.  The scripture is as mythical as they; as is predestination, hell, or any other dogmatic tradition.  This is not to say that others cannot find their own reasons for believing again, which they might consider valid; but there are plenty of scriptures that state that the reprobate cannot come back to god.  So, even their return to the fold would be dubious, according to the bible, anyway.

See this is all you needed to say.  Your ego got in the way.  The rest is bs...

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19 minutes ago, end3 said:

See this is all you needed to say.  Your ego got in the way.  The rest is bs...

How would this have answered the question you asked, "what keeps you from being elect?"

 

Don't substitute my ego for your own unwillingness to accept the answer you were given.

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29 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

How would this have answered the question you asked, "what keeps you from being elect?"

 

Don't substitute my ego for your own unwillingness to accept the answer you were given.

Well because we really don't know how Christ will view our lives.....Revelation 20:12 -15 I think.  What about Paul?

 

 

 

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How do we know that non-belief is not part of God's path for us.....especially if we have previously been Christian?  What about death, divorce, etc.  Hell, I haven't been to church a handful of times after my divorce and when I do go, I'm thinking it's a fundy circus...

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20 minutes ago, end3 said:

Well because we really don't know how Christ will view our lives.....Revelation 20:12 -15 I think.  What about Paul?

 

 

 

If christ is god, why would his opinion of me be any different than that already expressed in god's "word"?  Especially given that christ is also the "word" (John 1).

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16 minutes ago, end3 said:

How do we know that non-belief is not part of God's path for us.....especially if we have previously been Christian?  What about death, divorce, etc.  Hell, I haven't been to church a handful of times after my divorce and when I do go, I'm thinking it's a fundy circus...

Perhaps your view of church is all part of god's path for your eventual deconversion; and you are just resisting him out of fear and disobedience.  I don't know, End3, you seem to be slipping into some weird quagmire wherein you'll eventually proclaim that we were never true ex-christians and declare victory for your own beliefs.  Not that I'd blame you for clinging to whatever brings you comfort, just seems dishonest for so sharp a mind.

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10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If christ is god, why would his opinion of me be any different than that already expressed in god's "word"?  Especially given that christ is also the "word" (John 1).

You're not dead yet....

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7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Perhaps your view of church is all part of god's path for your eventual deconversion; and you are just resisting him out of fear and disobedience.  I don't know, End3, you seem to be slipping into some weird quagmire wherein you'll eventually proclaim that we were never true ex-christians and declare victory for your own beliefs.  Not that I'd blame you for clinging to whatever brings you comfort, just seems dishonest for so sharp a mind.

Fear is a part certainly.  I think God uses fear because we ARE so capable.....as a deterrent.  I think we have discussed this before.

 

I think some of you have resigned yourselves to non-belief regardless....sold out basically.  I see that as ego rather than anything else.  But it's a choice.

 

My only claim to fame is not having thrown in the towel.  I'm a sinner by any other definition. 

 

But the good news is I have been listening to sermons and it's making me feel better and less toxic.  Might even try church if there are no clouds in the sky to discharge...

 

Nice doing battle w you sir.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, end3 said:

You're not dead yet....

Does god exist inside of time or outside of it?  Because I don't think "yet" counts in the economy of omniscience.

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4 minutes ago, end3 said:

Fear is a part certainly.  I think God uses fear because we ARE so capable.....as a deterrent.  I think we have discussed this before.

 

I think some of you have resigned yourselves to non-belief regardless....sold out basically.  I see that as ego rather than anything else.  But it's a choice.

 

My only claim to fame is not having thrown in the towel.  I'm a sinner by any other definition. 

 

But the good news is I have been listening to sermons and it's making me feel better and less toxic.  Might even try church if there are no clouds in the sky to discharge...

 

Nice doing battle w you sir.

 

 

I've only resigned myself to the conclusions necessitated by the evidence, or lack thereof; said conclusions being that a god probably doesn't exist and if the god of the bible does exist, he's an asshole and I'd rather go to hell.

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5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I've only resigned myself to the conclusions necessitated by the evidence, or lack thereof; said conclusions being that a god probably doesn't exist and if the god of the bible does exist, he's an asshole and I'd rather go to hell.

Don't be a tough guy....it's unbecoming.  No one want's hell, no one wants to believe hell is a possibility.  No one truthfully wishes hell on someone else.

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10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Does god exist inside of time or outside of it?  Because I don't think "yet" counts in the economy of omniscience.

See, this is a pretty cool question.  Let me please get my own thoughts straight and I shall return.

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