donthodl

Did you actually know God, before giving up?

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10 hours ago, donthodl said:

Bruce Carlson, from Walden, NY, felt God tell him to go to Wisconsin and pray for Van Natta. Carlson and a mutual friend named Brian, went to his hospital room. There Carlson laid hands on Bruce Van Natta and commanded his small intestines to grow in the name of Jesus Christ.(John 14:13,14) Suddenly Van Natta felt electricity come out of his hands and go into his own forehead and down to his stomach area. Van Natta felt his intestines wiggle and move around. He instantly told Carlson and Brian that he felt as though a snake had uncoiled in his stomach.

     So did no one else pray or did god not give a shit until this Bruce guy prayed?  Like only Bruce Carlson makes good enough prayers?  It seems like god knew this Van Natta guy was in some deep shit but held back helping until this Carlson dude dragged his ass around.  For what reason would you do a thing like that?  Hold off helping someone in this sort of need until your special guy could come around and beg you for the very help that you already knew was needed and you could have provided at any time prior?  The angels that came to visit didn't even bother helping.  They were useless (basically causing someone to black out is not aid in that situation).

 

10 hours ago, donthodl said:

Bruce Van Natta immediately started gaining weight! His doctors were confused. They ordered an upper G.I. Track X-ray exam. The doctors couldn't believe what they were seeing. Senior radiologist Andrew Taylor confirmed in writing that Bruce Van Natta now had 9.84 feet(300 cm) of small intestines.   Before and after X-rays, CT scans and Doppler scans proved that Van Natta's small intestines had tripled in length due to the prayers for him in Jesus's name. This is a fact.

Furthermore, Dr. Michael Schurr operated on Van Natta again after the upper G.I. Track  X-rays showed that his small intestines had tripled. Dr. Schurr and the operative assistants saw the Christ-regrown small intestines with their own eyes. This is a fact.

The History Channel's atheistic "Miracles Decoded" series aimed to disprove miracles. Yet when they interviewed Dr.Michael Schurr and saw the clear evidence of the before and after medical imaging of Van Natta's intestines, even they had to admit on TV that there is no natural explanation for Bruce Van Natta's small intestine's huge regrowth. 

Bruce Van Natta is a healthy 160 pounds today and directs Sweet Bread Ministries.

Max Davis tells us that this miracle story has extremely reliable sources. To continue to disbelieve in miracles or in Jesus Christ, who is the God of miracles, is to simply refuse to acknowledge the facts.

References:

1) Bruce Van Natta(2013) Saved By Angels(Permission given to quote.)

2)Max Davis(2012) The Insanity of Disbelief: A Journalist's Journey from Belief to Skepticism to Deep Faith(Permission given to quote.)

3) Notes that I took during a telephone conversation with Bruce Van Natta on December 23,2017.

     Why did Van Natta continue to have surgeries after his miracle?  He was healed, correct?  But I've read that he remained in this hospital and had more surgeries over a nine month period.  It may well be that his intestines weren't grown but were repaired in those operations.  So his viable, not missing, intestines went from a few short feet to double or triple that during his many operations.  Operations that would not have been needed, during a hospital stay that would have been unnecessary, if he would have been made whole in one miraculous moment.

 

     So, yeah, amazing he's alive.  Amazing medical help.  Miracle?  I'm going to say no.  The continued hospitalization and surgeries suggest otherwise.  Everything else played out in his mind (ie. the angels, miraculous feeling) which did probably play a strong role in his survival and recovery.

 

          mwc

 

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6 hours ago, duderonomy said:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+137&version=NIV

 

I used to  think that too, but I'm not sure that one isolated verse means what we think it means.  Here's what I found when I did a search for the whole Psalm...

 

(NIV)

Psalm 137

1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
    when we remembered Zion.
2 There on the poplars
    we hung our harps,
3 for there our captors asked us for songs,
    our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
    they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”

4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord
    while in a foreign land?
5 If I forget you, Jerusalem,
    may my right hand forget its skill.
6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
    if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
    my highest joy.

7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
    on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
    “tear it down to its foundations!”
8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
    happy is the one who repays you
    according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks.

 

It just sounds like someone is pissed. Eye for an eye kind of stuff. Aren't Psalms just songs? Think of it as Hebrew Heavy Metal. 

 

Don't know. Just saying. 

 

 

Keep in mind that this is supposed to be a divinely inspired piece of scripture. For an allegedly god-breathed song of praise to speak of happily dashing infants against rocks is very problematic.

 

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Bruce Van natta was set up by “supposedly” god so god may be glorified. 

 

god put van natta under the truck, cause the jack to fall, crush him almost into half, severed 5 arteries and not let him die, in hospital to wait for someone to pray for him, 9 months and many surgeries later, let us all glorify god. 

 

yup. thats a crazy batshit god he believes

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On 8/1/2018 at 10:47 AM, SerenelyBlue said:

I was a true Christian, fell away from the true path.  Now I am a Christian again.  You can be a true Christian an lose your soul to the devil.

No you fell away from reason and back to insecurities. 

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16 hours ago, Citsonga said:

 

Keep in mind that this is supposed to be a divinely inspired piece of scripture. For an allegedly god-breathed song of praise to speak of happily dashing infants against rocks is very problematic.

 

 

But not so much as a chuckle for my Hebrew Heavy Metal joke?

 

I suppose you are right that it could be seen as problematic, but only if one sees Biblegod as a Santa Clause that loves and accepts everything and everyone. The Bible makes it clear though that its God character is nothing like that.

 

Anyway, not to argue, so moving on...

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7 hours ago, duderonomy said:

But not so much as a chuckle for my Hebrew Heavy Metal joke?

 

Haha, yeah, that was chuckle-worthy. ;)

 

7 hours ago, duderonomy said:

I suppose you are right that it could be seen as problematic, but only if one sees Biblegod as a Santa Clause that loves and accepts everything and everyone. The Bible makes it clear though that its God character is nothing like that.

 

Most Christians claim that God is all-loving. You're right that that's not what we see in the Bible. Christians like to claim that abortion is terrible in God's eyes and that he loves those little children, yet we have several things in the Bible conflicting with that. Not only is there the allegedly inspired Psalm 137 singing of happily dashing infants across the rocks, but there's aslo the 1 Samuel 15:3 command to slaughter infants and children, the Genesis 7 flood having God himself drowning all the infants and children in the world, and Numbers 5:11-31 giving a divine prescription for priests to give certain women a mud solution that would allegedly induce an abortion. So much for the God of the Bible being anti-abortion.

 

7 hours ago, duderonomy said:

Anyway, not to argue, so moving on...

 

Not arguing; just discussing. ;)

 

Have a great day....

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On 8/5/2018 at 7:04 PM, donthodl said:

One point that I talk about a lot is Heavy Metal bands and their singing about Christian ideas as well as the devil. I have some friends in a band and I said to them ACDC are a religious band because they sing about hell and the devil.

 

1. Why are you so obsessed with heavy metal? Do you seriously think that that's one of the reasons why we're ex-christians? (It's not, by the way.) Or do you secretly like the genre?

 

2. For the record, AC/DC is NOT a heavy metal band. They're a hard rock band. And, yes, there is a difference between heavy metal and hard rock.

 

3. As others have pointed out, the vast majority of references to the devil in mainstream rock and metal music are just a gimmick. Those guys don't take their own lyrics seriously, and neither should you.

 

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On 8/5/2018 at 7:26 PM, Joshpantera said:

 

No, that's not the greatest trick. A much greater trick would be convincing everyone on earth that he IS god, jesus, and so on. So that every, single (without exception) christian based belief and / or denomination which thinks they're worshiping jesus, are really worshiping the devil. And that everyone proselytizing in the name of jesus, would in fact be proselytizing for the devil completely unconscious of the fact that the devil was present at every turn, the bible, every denomination, every religion today including christianity.

 

I am sure that if the serpent could learn to speak without hearing the spoken word in order to speak  then surely he could write a book without being taught to read., huh?

 

So as a Christian, how did they explain Luke 11:13 to you or did they ever even mention it?

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10 minutes ago, Justus said:

 

I am sure that if the serpent could learn to speak without hearing the spoken word in order to speak  then surely he could write a book without being taught to read., huh?

 

So as a Christian, how did they explain Luke 11:13 to you or did they ever even mention it?

 

Luke 11:13 New International Version (NIV)

13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

 

What are you suggesting Justus? Do you think that I'm onto something with the devil's greatest deception being to fool the entire world, and that no matter where you turn you inadvertently turn to the devil, because he's the root of it all? 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Justus said:

 

I am sure that if the serpent could learn to speak without hearing the spoken word in order to speak  then surely he could write a book without being taught to read., huh?

 

So as a Christian, how did they explain Luke 11:13 to you or did they ever even mention it?

 

He also has his own Kung-Fu style, don't forget that! 

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7 hours ago, Justus said:

I am sure that if the serpent could learn to speak without hearing the spoken word in order to speak  then surely he could write a book without being taught to read., huh?

 

So as a Christian, how did they explain Luke 11:13 to you or did they ever even mention it?

 

I don't think Luke 11:13 is relevant to Josh's point, unless you are merely stating that evil people can do good, and that the Devil can quote scripture. I believe Josh's point is that misdirection towards a false religion is more effective than misdirection towards mere disbelief in the devil, since it will encompass more people.

 

Who is to say that Christianity is not a false religion? From a Jewish standpoint, you are no less an idolater than we Hindus are, since you worship three gods, one of whom is a human. God is not a son of man, remember? As per Deuteronomy 13, he ought to have been stoned to death, and his contemporaries obeyed this law as best they could whilst under Roman occupation.

 

Were I a contemporary of Jesus, I would have regarded him as some long haired Leftist hippie who wasn't raised right. If ever there were a deceiver to parallel the serpent of the Garden of Eden, it is Jesus, who discouraged obediance to the Mosaic Law and worship of himself as God. How do you, in good conscience, deny that Jesus himself is the devil?

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10 hours ago, Justus said:

 

I am sure that if the serpent could learn to speak without hearing the spoken word in order to speak  then surely he could write a book without being taught to read., huh?

 

So as a Christian, how did they explain Luke 11:13 to you or did they ever even mention it?

 

So Satan may have written the bible?

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12 hours ago, Justus said:

 

I am sure that if the serpent could learn to speak without hearing the spoken word in order to speak  then surely he could write a book without being taught to read., huh?

     Um, you believe your god did exactly this and more.

 

     Your god existed in nothingness, a void, apparently inert until the instant Genesis 1 took place.  Because it was at that moment that this god created the heavens and the earth.  Unless we assume there was creation prior to creation but why should we add to the bible in that way?

 

     God existed, alone, in some sort of nothingness, that we can't quite comprehend but nothingness it was since there was no creation.  Then, having no knowledge of anyone or anything this god had somehow had knowledge of everything.  At least what we consider to be everything.  This would include the ability to speak since it is by speaking this god creates.

 

     How a being that could not possibly have had any opportunity whatsoever to gain knowledge in any fashion could be the foundation of all knowledge is simply beyond belief.

 

12 hours ago, Justus said:

So as a Christian, how did they explain Luke 11:13 to you or did they ever even mention it?

     What?  There's more than John 3:16?  It's like every other christian except me managed to to get told all these things and they got all the perks.  Why, O, why, as a christian, did no one mention this to me?  Why did I just sit there in the wrong version of xianity and have the wrong things crammed in my face holes?  Why was I so lazy unlike these other proper xians with the godly goodies?

 

     Oh, wait, I was in a xian school.  We studied the bible every single day for years.  We went over this verse.  We literally went over all the verses.  In all the books.  More than once.  My bad.

 

          mwc

 

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16 hours ago, mwc said:

     Your god existed in nothingness, a void, apparently inert until the instant Genesis 1 took place.  Because it was at that moment that this god created the heavens and the earth.  Unless we assume there was creation prior to creation but why should we add to the bible in that way?

 

 

Actually God created darkness (Isaiah 45:7). Apparently darkness was new when God created our sphere in this universe ( I see it as part of God's contingency plan for when the fall occurred). Heavenly angels existed prior to the creation of our part of the universe & they witnessed the creation mentioned in the Genesis narrative (Job 38:7). There was creation prior to creation. The bible says so & it's not adding to the bible to say so. The heavens will be destroyed at the end of this earth, at the 2nd coming (2 Peter 3:10), & it won't be heaven where God dwells. There are different heavens mentioned in the bible.

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5 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

 

Actually God created darkness (Isaiah 45:7). Apparently darkness was new when God created our sphere in this universe ( I see it as part of God's contingency plan for when the fall occurred). Heavenly angels existed prior to the creation of our part of the universe & they witnessed the creation mentioned in the Genesis narrative (Job 38:7). There was creation prior to creation. The bible says so & it's not adding to the bible to say so. The heavens will be destroyed at the end of this earth, at the 2nd coming (2 Peter 3:10), & it won't be heaven where God dwells. There are different heavens mentioned in the bible.

     Yeah.  I can create darkness too.  It's the absence of light.  You can't see me but there's a little switch on the wall and...I've created darkness...now I've created light...now I've created darkness...now I've created light.  Whee!

 

     You really want to argue using Job?  Which part is figurative and which part is literal?  The parts that haven't been proved to be entirely and absurdly wrong are the figurative, right?  You know where god sets the earth on an actual, fixed, foundation and used and measured its dimensions using tools?  Sure, we can go round and round about god making angels do his handy work (in spite of what he claims in the text) but there's no getting around the fixed foundation.  There ain't no cornerstone.  We know better.  The earth ain't built that way.  This is nonsense.  But you can believe that god physically measured on the dimensions of the earth, placed a cornerstone and fixed the earth to its foundations like a good little handyman all while the angels were cheerleading for him.  The flat-earthers would love to have another member I'm sure.

 

     And I suppose the literal part(s) is where you think god created something prior to the Genesis creation so that any of this makes a lick of sense?  But then we wind up against Genesis and creation and we're back to all the problems I pointed out so it never makes sense.  It doesn't have a chance.  As I pointed out god exists in nothingness, has no experiences and we're expected to believe this same god then is the source of all knowledge.  Those two concepts are diametrically opposed.  Imagine a single blind person alone in the world (just *poof* they're there) and they somehow knew of color.  It makes no sense.  God is like this blind man.  Somehow god.  *Poof*  Then?  It just knows everything even though the only thing it has ever known is absolutely nothing?

 

          mwc

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

 

Actually God created darkness (Isaiah 45:7). Apparently darkness was new when God created our sphere in this universe ( I see it as part of God's contingency plan for when the fall occurred). Heavenly angels existed prior to the creation of our part of the universe & they witnessed the creation mentioned in the Genesis narrative (Job 38:7). There was creation prior to creation. The bible says so & it's not adding to the bible to say so. The heavens will be destroyed at the end of this earth, at the 2nd coming (2 Peter 3:10), & it won't be heaven where God dwells. There are different heavens mentioned in the bible.

 

The bible is fiction so whatever it says is irrelevant.

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5 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

The bible is fiction so whatever it says is irrelevant.

This here ^^^^^^ Those of you christians who come on this forum and start talking as if what the bible says is the literal truth, haven't realized that you're starting at the wrong point. Try tell us why you think the bible is true, and don't go anywhere near "the bible is true because it's the bible" argument.

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Just now, TruthSeeker0 said:

This here ^^^^^^ Those of you christians who come on this forum and start talking as if what the bible says is the literal truth, haven't realized that you're starting at the wrong point. Try tell us why you think the bible is true, and don't go anywhere near "the bible is true because it's the bible" argument. Same goes for god - don't tell us god exists because he is god. It just proves you haven't even come around to considering alternatives.

 

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On 8/9/2018 at 9:49 PM, Thumbelina said:

 

 

Actually God created darkness (Isaiah 45:7). Apparently darkness was new when God created our sphere in this universe ( I see it as part of God's contingency plan for when the fall occurred). Heavenly angels existed prior to the creation of our part of the universe & they witnessed the creation mentioned in the Genesis narrative (Job 38:7). There was creation prior to creation. The bible says so & it's not adding to the bible to say so. The heavens will be destroyed at the end of this earth, at the 2nd coming (2 Peter 3:10), & it won't be heaven where God dwells. There are different heavens mentioned in the bible.

 

Yes, God created darkness. He also needed a contingency plan. There was no creation prior to creation. The Bible says so and saying what the Bible says is not adding to the Bible. There are different heavens.

 

Damn Thumby, thanks for explaining all of this to us. I'm still a little confused about the darkness thing though. 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

Yes, God created darkness. He also needed a contingency plan. There was no creation prior to creation. The Bible says so and saying what the Bible says is not adding to the Bible. There are different heavens.

 

Damn Thumby, thanks for explaining all of this to us. I'm still a little confused about the darkness thing though. 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like ramblings from a homeless person.

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Point of order. Even assuming that darkness and light were "created," even then they would have to be brought into being in the same moment. Mutual arising and all that. There is no dark except in contrast to light and vice versa. IOW, if the famous line "let there be light" was uttered by the creator, then "let there be dark" was implied at the same instant as they can't exist separately. 

 

Of course "mysterious ways" and all that subterfuge....... I'm just speaking of reality.

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On 8/9/2018 at 6:49 PM, Thumbelina said:

 

 

Actually God created darkness (Isaiah 45:7). Apparently darkness was new when God created our sphere in this universe ( I see it as part of God's contingency plan for when the fall occurred). Heavenly angels existed prior to the creation of our part of the universe & they witnessed the creation mentioned in the Genesis narrative (Job 38:7). There was creation prior to creation. The bible says so & it's not adding to the bible to say so. The heavens will be destroyed at the end of this earth, at the 2nd coming (2 Peter 3:10), & it won't be heaven where God dwells. There are different heavens mentioned in the bible.

 

The forum's Bible worshiper speaks.

 

She's a funny girl.

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4 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Sounds like ramblings from a homeless person.

Oh come on, stop insulting the homeless.

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On 8/8/2018 at 3:30 PM, Joshpantera said:

What are you suggesting Justus? Do you think that I'm onto something with the devil's greatest deception being to fool the entire world, and that no matter where you turn you inadvertently turn to the devil, because he's the root of it all? 

 

Yes, being a fan of reason your discernment is a spark of brillance except you lackest one thing.  A devil,  unless you count INXS

 

Spoiler


35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. 
39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
 Deut 4:35

 

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2 hours ago, Justus said:

 

Yes, being a fan of reason your discernment is a spark of brillance except you lackest one thing.  A devil,  unless you count INXS

 

  Hide contents


35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. 
39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
 Deut 4:35

 

 

Deut 4:35 sounds rather pantheistic or non-dual, Buddhist, etc. We are all God. Sweet.

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