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donthodl

Did you actually know God, before giving up?

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10 hours ago, Justus said:

 

Yes, being a fan of reason your discernment is a spark of brillance except you lackest one thing.  A devil,  unless you count INXS

 

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35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. 
39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
 Deut 4:35

 

Yo @Justus , this bears repeating: Those of you christians who come on this forum and start talking as if what the bible says is the literal truth, haven't realized that you're starting at the wrong point. Try tell us why you think the bible is true, and don't go anywhere near "the bible is true because it's the bible" argument. Same goes for god - don't tell us god exists because he is god. It just proves you haven't even come around to considering alternatives.

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Re mwc's response.

 

I would like to ask a question; if you guys were in God's place how would 

you explain to mortals, who have no frame of reference of creating things ex nihilo, how you created their world & its atmosphere? Would you use high sounding, incomprehensible language to them or will you meet them where they're at? Would you use metaphors & other figures of speech that they'll understand to describe your actions to them so they can understand certain aspects about you?

 

………..

 

God existing in nothingness? Pfffft! Never!

Again I say, darkness was a new phenomenon that was created when God created our world. 

 

 

Creation week bespeaks a contingency plan because of God's foreknowledge of the  DUMB CHOICES His creatures would eventually make. The bible speaks of God's contingency plan before this world & man even existed ( see 1 Peter 1:19-20; Matthew 25:34; Acts 2:23 etc.).

God IS light therefore light is eternal as God Himself. Darkness is the absence of light so when God mysteriously cloaks Himself darkness is then created (Psalm 18:11). Created beings see darkness but there is no darkness in God because He is light (1 John 1:5; 1 Timothy 6:16; Daniel 2:22). Psalm 139:12 says, Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

 

 

I once mentioned on this website that with the creator God there is no yin & yang coexisting infinitely. There was a time when there was good without evil & light without darkness (in one sense you are mistaken, Florduh) & it WILL happen again. There has been a detour in God's perfect plan for His creation but He will be back on course eventually (Revelation 22:5). He would achieve all of this without force. All of those who worship Him would have seen the futility of living in darkness & sin. He created literal darkness so intelligent creatures could know they can't see-physically & spiritually- without Him.

 

 

 

When reading the bible one cannot be a mere surface reader. One has to dig into the Word to discover the precious gems beneath the surface. The reason why I keep saying that creation week suggests a contingency plan is because God made some separations & differentiations during the creation process & He demonstrated a progression in His creative acts. On day 1 the bible says God created light but to create a source of light distinct from Himself He had to create darkness (this is where you were quite right, Pops) so it could be compared & contrasted. I see His contingency plan that was being put in motion. He knew this planet would rebel & separate from Him & it seems that Satan's rebellion was already in motion at that juncture (more about that later) therefore, He created separate light sources apart from Himself. He also created time to put a check on sin & rebellion & to eventually eradicate them. He also wanted to show the watching universe His creatorship & His righteous principles compared to Satan's creaturely role & unrighteous principles.

 

 

 

Each day began with darkness & ended up with light. As He continued creating it progressed from good to very good. Once God used negative language & said something was not good & that was for man to be alone. Another time He used negative language was when He told Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil or He will surely die. Actually, God said that before saying it was not good for man to be alone. God is a social being & He was showing that His creation should be social creatures too.

 

About Satan already acting up BEFORE God even created this sphere of the universe; the book of Job (biblical scholars believe Moses wrote this book & it was possibly written BEFORE Genesis) describes some of earth's pre-history & some behind the scenes activities that stupid Satan was involved in after the fall.

Job 38:6,7 says, 6On what were its foundations laid, or who set its core in place— 7while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Verse 7- which the KJV rightly translates- alludes to the fact that God had loyal angels cheering for Him while He was creating this world, its atmosphere & everything in it. People who dig deep into scripture, & who are not mere superficial readers, will see that God made a distinction regarding the angels. The text says the sons of God shouted for joy. God calls beings who are loyal to Him sons (look it up, that theme is throughout scripture; eg 1 John 3:1). Casual bible readers DO NOT cross reference texts to see the cohesiveness of the biblical narratives & they go off on tangents & say the bible is contradictory (2 Peter 2:16). One of the cross references for Job 38:7 is Job 1:6, which clearly shows Satan as God's adversary/enemy & the other beings as His friends/sons. The word Satan means adversary. Is an adversary a friend/son? Satan took Adam's place in that meeting. Adam was supposed to represent earth in that meeting had he not sinned & gave his dominion to Satan.

 

 

 

The sons of God (can be a generic term; loyal females are considered sons :) ) will understand that God is LONGSUFFERING (see Exodus 34:6; Jonah 4:2), He bears long with sinners. They can deduce that the fall did not take long to occur after creation- the perfect, FERTILE & healthy pair didn't even have a baby yet when they got kicked out of the garden. Satan's badness had fully ripened by then; for why would he be talking to Eve & tempting her to be like him & his minions (to be as gods; see Genesis 3:5 KJV) if he was any bloody good? God is longsuffering so He would not have expelled Satan after only a short time of his narcissistic delusions of wanting to be like the Most High. Jesus said Satan is a murderer from the beginning & the father of lies. Was he not lying to Eve? Wasn't he an indirect murderer? We also can see that God truly is longsuffering because He did not kill/execute Satan yet, but He will. Satan will surely die.

 

So lions, there was creation history before earth even came into being.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I was always aware that there was no way that what I call the voice of god could easily be also my own inner voice and feelings.

 

The human mind is very interesting and complex, and there are so many things that come out of it. I like to think of my mind containing several sub-personalities, some of which I like, some of which I don't. There is the self-critic, the perfectionist, the smoking addict (I quit but sometimes this one still gets triggered), the (over)enthusiast, the systematic thinker, the social person, the child, etc. All of these are not activated at the same time, but several can be and they interact with each other. We are constantly weighing different options, some of which stimulate one mode of being, and some of which another one. God is just another subpersonality on that long list, one that it's own needs, filled in by what we are taught in our upbringing and christian groups.

 

Add to this that in social groups, we tend to easily get emotional and that this is actively manipulated in churches. We long to belong to a bigger group, we long to be accepted, to feel secure, to work together, and all of this can get triggered in a service. It's very easy to think that all of the thoughts and feelings that you get in such an elevated state are coming from god.

 

I wanted to hear god, sure. But there is just no way to tell for sure. We don't know where our thoughts originate, not even our own ones. How then can we call some of these gods voice?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

So lions, there was creation history before earth even came into being.

 

I've seen some intellectually poor and very uncritical thinking from christian apologists over the last few decades, but this has to rank as top 5 epic thinking fails of all time. I'll expand on that below. 

 

6 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

God IS light therefore light is eternal as God Himself. Darkness is the absence of light so when God mysteriously cloaks Himself darkness is then created (Psalm 18:11). Created beings see darkness but there is no darkness in God because He is light (1 John 1:5; 1 Timothy 6:16; Daniel 2:22). Psalm 139:12 says, Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

 

What is a day and what is night? What is an evening and a morning? It's when part of the earth faces towards the sun and the other part faces away from the sun.

 

Apologists who take this direction face an unflattering result. There was no sun until the 4th day. No sun, moon or stars (other suns) until the fourth day of creation. The ancients thought that light existed independent of the sun and that the sun, moon, and stars were merely objects that "inhabited" the light of day and the darkness of night. Going around the earth. You see day light in the morning prior to seeing the sun. It's light even when it's cloudy. You still see light after sun down for a while. They were ignorant of the fact that the sun is the 'source' of day, at least with respect to this particular bronze age creation myth. So they didn't realize the contradiction they were making when having the sun, moon, and stars not created until the fourth day of creation. Nor the contradiction of having grass growing on dry land one "day" before the sun was created. 

 

So some apologists, when facing this contradiction, try to claim that "god" was the source of light for the first three "evenings and mornings" of Genesis 1. And sometimes quote the opening of John and the "logos" to support the apology.

 

But one big problem with that apology is that it presents god as "finite," like the sun. A finite, light giving object only visible from the side of the earth face the finite, light bearing object. A "day" is simply when the earth is "facing" towards a light source, like the sun. Night, is facing the opposite direction of a light source, like the sun. For the existence of 'days and night' you need one side of the earth facing the light source, and the other side of the earth facing away from the light source.

 

But god is suggested to be eternal! That means "unbound" and "infinite." And infinite or eternal "light" is necessarily "everywhere," all the time, and beyond time to be technical.

 

You can not draw circle around that which is eternal, infinite and unbound. Hence, you can not "face away" from the light of an eternal light source to constitute a night. And more importantly to your specific angle of apologetic's, you can not "cloak" an eternal light source unless the eternal light source ceases to be light and instead becomes eternal darkness! That means total and complete darkness, unbound, everywhere all the time darkness. 

 

Think about that for a moment. When asserting eternal, one can not draw a line around, encircle, enclose, nor "cloak" and bound that which is claimed to be boundless and eternal. It's necessarily un-cloak-able. Or else you've reduced it to something "finite," which can be closed off, "cloaked" and covered over. In which case you've reduced god to something "finite" rather than "infinite." 

 

In any event, I'm dropping a link below to an over 40 page argument I once had with a christian apologists about how many ways Genesis 1 contradicts itself and some of the specifics of how it only gets worse and worse as you try and apologize for the contradictions. And also worse and worse as you try and shift from literal to symbolic interpretation, switching from conservative to liberal christian interpretations! In other words, trying to dig yourself out of the hole of Genesis 1 will only result in digging yourself even deeper into the hole as you go along, and it's a lose / lose for anyone who makes the effort to over come the foundational contradictions of the bronze age, man made creation myth. 

 

The thread is entitled, Young Earth Creation Theory Put To Rest: https://www.booktalk.org/young-earth-theory-put-to-rest-t8061.html

 

 

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1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

...contingency plan because of God's foreknowledge of the  DUMB CHOICES His creatures would eventually make.

Think about what you're saying here. A contingency plan is for when you don't know what will happen. Supposedly God does know what will happen but he forges ahead anyway with creating a world he knows he will later destroy. What you're really asserting is that an all good, all knowing, all powerful creator and deity chooses misery and death for the vast majority of his creation. He knowingly created people he expected to fail. That is what you are saying. 

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1 hour ago, Thumbelina said:

Again I say, darkness was a new phenomenon that was created when God created our world.

No. There is no light unless there also is "not light." No "up" without "down." No "back" without "front."

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4 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

I would like to ask a question; if you guys were in God's place how would you explain to mortals, who have no frame of reference of creating things ex nihilo...{snip}

 

Because of the equivalency of matter and energy, I see creation ex nihilo as impossible even for a god.  Creation is an action.  Action requires energy.  Energy is not "nothing."

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The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the bib as a contingency plan.

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6 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

When reading the bible one cannot be a mere surface reader. One has to dig into the Word to discover the precious gems beneath the surface.

 

 

People here have said many times that they decided to 'dig in' to the bible to find a deeper truth and become closer to God. But in their deeper reading they discovered a hidden gem: atheism. If you take off the God Goggles that have been giving you a love affair with the bible, and just read it like you're reading a Chilton's car repair manual (you know, like you wanted to actually learn something new) then you will discover the bat guano insanity that you once thought was some fabulous piece of wisdom.

 

So make sure that you never read the bible objectively or your faith is going to take a hit. Just continue reading the bible with the idea that it's all holy and loving and beautiful to guarantee you keep yourself thoroughly brainwashed. You did a great job making up ludicrous BS to explain the ludicrous bible BS.

 

Maybe YOU should read some Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens or John Loftus. And dig deep. Don't just do a surface read. Study several written opinions about Christianity. Not just the pro-Jesus side. That's what a truth-seeker would do.

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45 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

So make sure that you never read the bible objectively or your faith is going to take a hit. Just continue reading the bible with the idea that it's all holy and loving and beautiful to guarantee you keep yourself thoroughly brainwashed. You did a great job making up ludicrous BS to explain the ludicrous bible BS.

 

Maybe YOU should read some Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens or John Loftus. And dig deep. Don't just do a surface read. Study several written opinions about Christianity. Not just the pro-Jesus side. That's what a truth-seeker would do.

@Thumbelina you have also decided to ignore what I have now repeated three times. You havn't got anywhere near the "should I consider the possibility that god perhaps doesn't exist as I know him", and if you don't, you will continue to preach here as you are doing. You aren't even attempted to start a conversation that is open-minded. Instead, you keep repeating more of the same old "the bible says..." and "god says or did this or that."

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You know I just want to say that I find it fascinating to see people still believe and argue for the same strange points that I used to argue for. I don't mean this to offend, but it really sends the shivers down my spine when I encounter people like this. In a way I want to save them from their ignorance, I really feel it's sad to see people like this, on the other I really dislike wasting any more time on religion and I want to focus my energies on building my character and a beautiful life, which has already been delayed long enough because of me spending a lot of time and energy on this imaginary scheme that I have been manipulated into as an innocent kid.

 

I don't know why I wrote this. Just saying that I respect anyone who is willing to spend time discussing these things, I don't have the patience anymore, it's too sensitive for me. And I also love my religious fellow humans. And I understand you, having been there. I hope many make it out, but I prefer that you are happy and good people, which has little to do with religion.

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20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Re mwc's response.

 

I would like to ask a question; if you guys were in God's place how would 

you explain to mortals, who have no frame of reference of creating things ex nihilo, how you created their world & its atmosphere? Would you use high sounding, incomprehensible language to them or will you meet them where they're at? Would you use metaphors & other figures of speech that they'll understand to describe your actions to them so they can understand certain aspects about you?

     Why are you asking us this question?  Why not ask god?  Is it because you can ask god all you want and you'll simply get silence?  Or a "feeling"?  Or some gibberish spouted off by someone else that you or some other person can interpret?  But no matter how many times you ask you will never, ever, in your entire life get an actual sit-down, long form answer, from god?

 

     Anyhow, "god" spent tons of space on the creation.  Literally tens of verses.  Maybe more if we add the second account and the miscellaneous verses that people tie-in the creation.  God really spent a lot of time and effort trying to communicate this as best as a perfect being possibly could no matter the audience that's for certain.

 

     It's not like we're talking about the whole building a tent of meeting that gets described a couple of times in painful detail by comparison. 

 

     Come on.  The creation is a gloss by comparison.  God fail.  But since it's god we'll say he failed perfectly.  Just like we've glossed over god building the earth on a foundation and all that nonsense in Job.

 

20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

God existing in nothingness? Pfffft! Never!

Again I say, darkness was a new phenomenon that was created when God created our world. 

    Darkness precedes the creation of light.  Darkness first.  Then light.  Then separation.

 

     But prior to all this where did god live?  In something?  What was that something?  Not heaven.  And there was nothing else.  Nothing existed.  So nothingness.

 

20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

Creation week bespeaks a contingency plan because of God's foreknowledge of the  DUMB CHOICES His creatures would eventually make. The bible speaks of God's contingency plan before this world & man even existed ( see 1 Peter 1:19-20; Matthew 25:34; Acts 2:23 etc.).

God IS light therefore light is eternal as God Himself. Darkness is the absence of light so when God mysteriously cloaks Himself darkness is then created (Psalm 18:11). Created beings see darkness but there is no darkness in God because He is light (1 John 1:5; 1 Timothy 6:16; Daniel 2:22). Psalm 139:12 says, Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

     Contingency would mean god would be unaware of what was coming and this would be a "Plan B," you know, just in case "Plan A" didn't work out.  Foreknowledge sort of contradicts this whole idea.

 

     If god is light, literally light, then god is never at rest since light is always, in all reference frames, traveling at the speed of light by its very definition.  The bible says that on the seventh day that god rested.  That is a contradiction.  Also, if god literally covers himself then that would cause his photon-y goodness to be destroyed.  That is the only way "darkness" can be created (unless god somehow bounces himself off a series of mirrors or other strange tricks).

 

     But, you've already seem to argue prior to this that god apparently used "figures of speech" from bronze/iron age language to describe everything to simple minds and then taking that literally to argue here.  Basically you're using a less than reliable message but claiming it is extremely reliable.  God may well not be light at all according to this but only trying to relate himself to simple minds.  Nor may god be any of the things said of him by the same said reasoning.  I doubt that's what you want so we'll just move on.

 

20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

 

I once mentioned on this website that with the creator God there is no yin & yang coexisting infinitely. There was a time when there was good without evil & light without darkness (in one sense you are mistaken, Florduh) & it WILL happen again. There has been a detour in God's perfect plan for His creation but He will be back on course eventually (Revelation 22:5). He would achieve all of this without force. All of those who worship Him would have seen the futility of living in darkness & sin. He created literal darkness so intelligent creatures could know they can't see-physically & spiritually- without Him.

     There cannot be good without evil and light without darkness.  These things rely on the other.  They usually exist on a continuum but could be binary.  If everything was simply "good" then the least-good would become evil while the most-good would be perfect.  If everything were the same exact level of good then that would just be the normal.  There would be neither good nor evil.  If everything is perfect then nothing is perfect.  Perfection becomes just the ordinary not the extraordinary.

 

     And unless everything becomes transparent, or light emitters, at some point there will be darkness.  There's no getting around that.  And unless sight works differently than now then simply having light hit the eye to see will cause the photons to be destroyed.  Closing your eyelids even.  That is darkness.  I couldn't imagine a nightmare were there was no darkness anywhere.  No shadows.  Nothing.  Inside or outside.  Nowhere.  Just light all the time.  Forever.  Even when I close my eyes.  Pure torture.

 

     Oddly enough, if all light is god, as I said before, I can't imagine that god hitting objects, like my eye, should destroy him so we'll have to imagine more than a new heaven and new earth but an entirely new form of magical physics too.  The idea of god sitting on a throne won't work since he'll be quite active in his light-speed ways and a lot of gravity to deal with to boot.  Sounds a lot like we're just worshiping the Sun here but that would be silly.  Lets just say a "star like object that's definitely not the Sun but similar in that it's made up of light."  Only some iron age type of guys would come up with this but we know they didn't because god definitely described himself to them and not the other way around.

 

20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

When reading the bible one cannot be a mere surface reader. One has to dig into the Word to discover the precious gems beneath the surface. The reason why I keep saying that creation week suggests a contingency plan is because God made some separations & differentiations during the creation process & He demonstrated a progression in His creative acts. On day 1 the bible says God created light but to create a source of light distinct from Himself He had to create darkness (this is where you were quite right, Pops) so it could be compared & contrasted. I see His contingency plan that was being put in motion. He knew this planet would rebel & separate from Him & it seems that Satan's rebellion was already in motion at that juncture (more about that later) therefore, He created separate light sources apart from Himself. He also created time to put a check on sin & rebellion & to eventually eradicate them. He also wanted to show the watching universe His creatorship & His righteous principles compared to Satan's creaturely role & unrighteous principles.

     God sure is making a lot of plans for a lot of fuck ups that he knew were coming or already were in progress.  This guy sucks at his job.  If you know the train is going to derail you don't fill it with passengers while having a guy busy digging graves.  You don't get credit for knowing you'd need those graves and a pat on the back.  You get fired and hopefully arrested.  The train shouldn't have been loaded and it should have never left the station.  Blaming it on the "evil passenger" who you knew was going to set off a bomb and cause the disaster is still all on you because you knew beforehand and failed to act accordingly.

 

     "In the beginning god created the heavens and the earth...darkness was over the surface of the deep..."  Oops.  It looks like darkness precedes the creation of light.  Darkness comes first.  Then comes the creation of light and then god separates them.

 

20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

Each day began with darkness & ended up with light. As He continued creating it progressed from good to very good. Once God used negative language & said something was not good & that was for man to be alone. Another time He used negative language was when He told Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil or He will surely die. Actually, God said that before saying it was not good for man to be alone. God is a social being & He was showing that His creation should be social creatures too.

     How is darkness negative in the creation?  There's nothing there to indicate that at all.  It says that it is "good."  You see, the light was "day" and the darkness was "night."  The creation was good.  That includes darkness.  There's nothing here to say "night" is bad.

 

     There's nothing to show "god is social."  God supposedly made two of every kind except humans.  God then brought all the animals to Adam to see if any of them would do.  That's shows ignorance, a lack of foresight, not intelligence and certainly not a being seeking a "social network" or the desire to create one for his most superior creation.

 

20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

About Satan already acting up BEFORE God even created this sphere of the universe; the book of Job (biblical scholars believe Moses wrote this book & it was possibly written BEFORE Genesis) describes some of earth's pre-history & some behind the scenes activities that stupid Satan was involved in after the fall.

Job 38:6,7 says, 6On what were its foundations laid, or who set its core in place— 7while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Verse 7- which the KJV rightly translates- alludes to the fact that God had loyal angels cheering for Him while He was creating this world, its atmosphere & everything in it. People who dig deep into scripture, & who are not mere superficial readers, will see that God made a distinction regarding the angels. The text says the sons of God shouted for joy. God calls beings who are loyal to Him sons (look it up, that theme is throughout scripture; eg 1 John 3:1). Casual bible readers DO NOT cross reference texts to see the cohesiveness of the biblical narratives & they go off on tangents & say the bible is contradictory (2 Peter 2:16). One of the cross references for Job 38:7 is Job 1:6, which clearly shows Satan as God's adversary/enemy & the other beings as His friends/sons. The word Satan means adversary. Is an adversary a friend/son? Satan took Adam's place in that meeting. Adam was supposed to represent earth in that meeting had he not sinned & gave his dominion to Satan.

     No scholars think Moses wrote any of the books of the bible.  "Scholars," on the other hand, probably do think Moses wrote Job for all I know.

 

     What the fuck are you saying here?  This is insane shit that isn't backed up by anything...literally...not...one...thing...in the actual bible.  There was no meeting where Adam was supposed to meet with god and satan came instead.  If you're huffing something you should say so.

 

     The meeting at the beginning of Job takes place at the time of Job.  God asks only a couple of verses later something to the effect of "Have you considered Job?  There's no one on earth like him."  If this meeting took place during the time of Adam this question would be nonsensical since Job didn't exist yet.  If we're supposed to consider some sort of temporal shift, like time-traveling, then it just gets worse.  So satan is supposed to know about and then go after Job in hundreds of years?  Or immediately travel to the future and back?  Nonsense.  The time frame is set.  And it's not during Adam's life but Job's.

 

     It seems that you accept the earth is flat and on fixed foundations as described in Job.  I'd like for you to at least admit that.

 

20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

The sons of God (can be a generic term; loyal females are considered sons :) ) will understand that God is LONGSUFFERING (see Exodus 34:6; Jonah 4:2), He bears long with sinners. They can deduce that the fall did not take long to occur after creation- the perfect, FERTILE & healthy pair didn't even have a baby yet when they got kicked out of the garden. Satan's badness had fully ripened by then; for why would he be talking to Eve & tempting her to be like him & his minions (to be as gods; see Genesis 3:5 KJV) if he was any bloody good? God is longsuffering so He would not have expelled Satan after only a short time of his narcissistic delusions of wanting to be like the Most High. Jesus said Satan is a murderer from the beginning & the father of lies. Was he not lying to Eve? Wasn't he an indirect murderer? We also can see that God truly is longsuffering because He did not kill/execute Satan yet, but He will. Satan will surely die.

     Where did you get that it was satan here?  Because the Genesis narrative does not have that information.  It is a serpent.

 

     Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come,

     ...THY WILL BE DONE on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN...

 

     Oh no.  Looks like gods will is always done in heaven.  Period.  No need to long suffer up there.  It's just god's will.  So if there's a rebellion, well, that's god's will.  If there's an on-going war.  That's god's will.  If there's anything that happens for any reason.  That's god's will.  It's all god's will in heaven.

 

     What that means that, if you're in heaven, and an angel somehow turns evil?  That's god's will.  Not the angel's will.  It cannot be.  Jesus said so and that's really binding stuff when it comes to heaven since he's supposed to know what goes on there pretty well.  That means satan can't go rogue unless god willed it.  And since it took place in heaven that has to be the case.  There are zero other options in this situation.  It's nice to think that satan became jealous and all on his own but if so we'd have to assume that this was god's will as well.  God would then have known this was going to happen, allowed it, allowed the war, placed satan on earth, allowed the "fall" and really just loaded up that train while digging all those graves like I said before.

 

20 hours ago, Thumbelina said:

So lions, there was creation history before earth even came into being.

     I'm not sure I saw where any of this was actually demonstrated.  I responded to all you said and, while it was lengthy and wandering, it never really showed what you're claiming here.  Maybe distill things down a bit?  I doubt that can be done though since it's really not in the bible.  Some people argue two creations and maybe a gap (I don't buy that either) but at least they can almost get some evidence for it.  Your thing is baffling me. 

 

          mwc

 

 

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On 8/13/2018 at 11:05 PM, duderonomy said:

If god is so sure that there are no other gods, then why the first Commandment that there should be no other gods put ahead of him? 

It sounds like he knows that there are many gods, and he is jockeying for position.

 

1.  Since the LORD is a God of truth, then if you choose to put lies over the truth don't be surprised if you claim think your lies are the truth.

2. Whoever told you that the first commandment is thou shalt have no other gods before him is lying to you.  

3.  Don't blame in the LORD that you got deceived.

4.  Don't blame in on them that told you cause you if you had did what they told you then you wouldn't have got deceived.

You might consider putting the blame on Fanny.....

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On 8/13/2018 at 11:53 PM, TruthSeeker0 said:

Yo @Justus , this bears repeating: Those of you christians who come on this forum and start talking as if what the bible says is the literal truth, haven't realized that you're starting at the wrong point. Try tell us why you think the bible is true, and don't go anywhere near "the bible is true because it's the bible" argument. Same goes for god - don't tell us god exists because he is god. It just proves you haven't even come around to considering alternatives.

 

Then don't tell me there is a devil if you don't believe there is one was the point of my post.  

 

The truth be known I give a rat's ass if you believe in truth or not, but I do know that unless some opens the door to the possiblity something maybe true then that door will stay shut,  and I have no obligiation to prove a dam thing to you.   But don't you think that is a little hypocritical to say don't tell us that there alternatives to our interpretation of the truth.   

 

So if you don't believe that everything is light then the fact I believe that Genesis 1:1 represents that the lights created darkness doesn't prove that everything isn't light or that you even know what you are talking about much that you are a truth seeker.

 

 

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1 hour ago, mwc said:

It seems that you accept the earth is flat and on fixed foundations as described in Job.  I'd like for you to at least admit that.

 

Your claim that the scripture tells you that the earth is flat is only evdence of your calling.  

 

You mean is it isn't sitting on it axis?   So why does the earth move with the electromagnetic waves pulsating from the convergence of the two bands of the electrmagnetic circuit?  

But I guess if a person does believe that God is light they can't see the truth.

 

Like Job said, Oh that my words were now visible, Oh that the were printed in light'  

 

But as far as you question "what is day and what is night", would you believe that they are the two great lights that were set in the cloud that the LORD covered the earth with like a garment?  How did he do that you ask?  Simple by the rotation of the earth upon it's axis.  Since there are 12 hours in a day and 12 hours in a nigh then you would have 100%/ 0% or 24 hours of light on one side and 0 hours on the other.  That is if you believe the rotation of the sun is produced by the two bands of the electromagnetic wave.  One band is pulling the earth towards the sun while the other is pushing it away.  You don't think the earth is whirling around in space like a bobber on a whirlpool of water do you?

 

So if a day is 24 hours, until the earth was rotating at with 12 hours of light along the equator then you wouldn't have 12 hours of night.

 

Do you know what the effects would be on you if the earth didn't rotate?


 

 

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On 8/14/2018 at 5:25 AM, Thumbelina said:

 

I would like to ask a question; if you guys were in God's place how would 

you explain to mortals, who have no frame of reference of creating things ex nihilo, how you created their world & its atmosphere? Would you use high sounding, incomprehensible language to them or will you meet them where they're at? Would you use metaphors & other figures of speech that they'll understand to describe your actions to them so they can understand certain aspects about you?

 

Hell man, imaging you were God is how you found him right?  "for he that comes God must believe he is.

 

Why would God explain anything to mortals seeing that they are going to be dead in the blink of an eye anyways 😉 

But  of course you wouldn't want to hear about the 'in kind' principle since if God created the world  ex nihilo then that would mean that there was nothing to your God.

 

But even assuming an eternal God created the world, then nothing in the world could be eternal since the eternal can neither be created nor destroyed.  And if not eternal then of course those who were created by nothing would believe that the universe would pass away into nothing because if not eternal then it would end since only the eternal has not end of existence.

 

And seeing that the 'in kind' principle clearly demonstrates that 'nothing could only come from nothing',  now that is something  for mortals to think about.  

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Justus said:

Your claim that the scripture tells you that the earth is flat is only evdence of your calling.  

     What?

 

9 hours ago, Justus said:

You mean is it isn't sitting on it axis?   So why does the earth move with the electromagnetic waves pulsating from the convergence of the two bands of the electrmagnetic circuit?  

     What?

 

9 hours ago, Justus said:

But I guess if a person does believe that God is light they can't see the truth.

     What?

 

9 hours ago, Justus said:

Like Job said, Oh that my words were now visible, Oh that the were printed in light'  

     Sure.  Just like Job said.

 

9 hours ago, Justus said:

But as far as you question "what is day and what is night", would you believe that they are the two great lights that were set in the cloud that the LORD covered the earth with like a garment?  How did he do that you ask?  Simple by the rotation of the earth upon it's axis.  Since there are 12 hours in a day and 12 hours in a nigh then you would have 100%/ 0% or 24 hours of light on one side and 0 hours on the other.  That is if you believe the rotation of the sun is produced by the two bands of the electromagnetic wave.  One band is pulling the earth towards the sun while the other is pushing it away.  You don't think the earth is whirling around in space like a bobber on a whirlpool of water do you?

 

So if a day is 24 hours, until the earth was rotating at with 12 hours of light along the equator then you wouldn't have 12 hours of night.

     Did I ask what day or night was?  I don't recall doing that.  I do recall stating that the light in the creation narrative was called "day" and the darkness was called "night" and there was no negative connotations associated with the darkness (or night).  I also recall asking what existed prior to this creation in relation to where did god exist prior to god creating?  If god existed then god created where did god exist before god created a place to exist within?  Whether this is the creation mentioned in Genesis or not it makes no difference. 

 

     You do realize there aren't actually twelve hours of day and twelve hours of night, right?  That's not a true statement.  It's never a true statement in that there are never exactly twelve hours of light and twelve hours of darkness.  I know the equinoxes make it seem like day and night are equal but they're not exactly equal.  Maybe "close enough" on a couple days out of the year is perfection here?  But it fails on all other days so I guess we can forget about it?

 

     I have no idea where you're going with "electromagnetic bands."  Sounds like some electric universe theory nonsense.  I'm going to stick with gravity doing the work of keeping the Earth tied to the sun.  So, no.  No electromagnetism required. 

 

9 hours ago, Justus said:

Do you know what the effects would be on you if the earth didn't rotate?

     Does this matter?

 

     What question are you answering?  Are you trying to show that you think the earth rotates?  Was that in doubt?  Maybe send this to Job, god and Thumbalina since they're the ones who assert the flat the earth on fixed foundations?  But lose the pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo before you do.  You're trying to educate not confuse them like you did me.

 

          mwc

 

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If god's creation was "perfect", as god himself described it, how could it have contained the flaw that allowed for Adam and Eve to make the "wrong" choice?

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33 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If god's creation was "perfect", as god himself described it, how could it have contained the flaw that allowed for Adam and Eve to make the "wrong" choice?

     It's my understanding that it didn't have any flaws at all.

 

     But he apparently made a contingency plan just in case it did.  Which it did.  Because he knew it did.  Ahead of time.

 

     All perfectly reasonable and well thought out.

 

          mwc

 

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a perfect god executes an imperfect plan?

 

how does imperfection sets in a perfect person. 

 

if an entity is perfect no blemishes and would NOT know blemishes. 

 

weird logic

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17 hours ago, Justus said:

 

1.  Since the LORD is a God of truth, then if you choose to put lies over the truth don't be surprised if you claim think your lies are the truth.

2. Whoever told you that the first commandment is thou shalt have no other gods before him is lying to you.  

3.  Don't blame in the LORD that you got deceived.

4.  Don't blame in on them that told you cause you if you had did what they told you then you wouldn't have got deceived.

You might consider putting the blame on Fanny.....

 

Odd because in the song the singer told Fanny to "put the blame right on me", so you got that part wrong just like in the rest of your post. 

You are making claims, so you must bring the proof. Your opinions don't count. Using the Bible to prove the Bible doesn't count anymore than using the book The Old Man And The Sea to prove that the events in the book The Old Man And The Sea actually happened in real life.

 

You need to get past the milk of your trollish proselyting level of posts and bring the forum some real meaty goodness to chew on. Bring evidence not from the Bible. Bring some kind of proof. Bring your "A" game, you've got one, right? 

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17 hours ago, Justus said:

 

Then don't tell me there is a devil if you don't believe there is one was the point of my post.  

 

The truth be known I give a rat's ass if you believe in truth or not, but I do know that unless some opens the door to the possiblity something maybe true then that door will stay shut,  and I have no obligiation to prove a dam thing to you.   But don't you think that is a little hypocritical to say don't tell us that there alternatives to our interpretation of the truth.   

 

So if you don't believe that everything is light then the fact I believe that Genesis 1:1 represents that the lights created darkness doesn't prove that everything isn't light or that you even know what you are talking about much that you are a truth seeker.

 

 

Yeah, people tend to get angry and just tell others they have no idea what they're talking about, or some other such, when they don't want to have a real discussion.

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17 hours ago, Justus said:

 

 

The truth be known I give a rat's ass if you believe in truth or not, but I do know that unless some opens the door to the possiblity something maybe true then that door will stay shut,  and I have no obligiation to prove a dam thing to you.   But don't you think that is a little hypocritical to say don't tell us that there alternatives to our interpretation of the truth.  

You're on a site for ex-christians. You're in the Lion's Den. You're conversing with people here who have probably in all likelyhood considered some alternatives a lot more than you have. So, if you get asked to provide your argument for the existence of something, why are you chickening out?

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On 8/15/2018 at 3:56 AM, Justus said:

 

, and I have no obligiation to prove a dam thing to you. 

 

 

You have no obligation... nor ability ... to prove a damn thing to us.

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On 8/14/2018 at 1:42 PM, Heimir said:

In a way I want to save them from their ignorance

 

Here! Here!

 

When I counter Mrs. MOHO's churchy lingo with logic and reason she responds with "Satan is making you say that!"

 

The fundies, of course, are fed that lie as a half-assed attempt at vilifying those who tout logic/reason/truth (as can be PROVEN)/sanity.

You know, crazy-ass shit like that. 

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