Did you actually know God, before giving up?

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, MOHO said:

 

Here! Here!

 

When I counter Mrs. MOHO's churchy lingo with logic and reason she responds with "Satan is making you say that!"

 

The fundies, of course, are fed that lie as a half-assed attempt at vilifying those who tout logic/reason/truth (as can be PROVEN)/sanity.

You know, crazy-ass shit like that. 

 

Satan is logical, apparently.

[florduh]

"Did you really ever know God?" Yes, in the way that any believer thinks he knows the deity in question. After all, it's a relationship, right? Well, I investigated that god so thoroughly he vanished in the overwhelming and undeniable lack of evidence.

 

"Did you ever really look at the emperor's new clothes?" Yes, I looked even more closely than you and discovered that the fucker was actually naked.

[midniterider]

8 minutes ago, florduh said:

"Did you really ever know God?" Yes, in the way that any believer thinks he knows the deity in question. After all, it's a relationship, right? Well, I investigated that god so thoroughly he vanished in the overwhelming and undeniable lack of evidence.

 

"Did you ever really look at the emperor's new clothes?" Yes, I looked even more closely than you and discovered that the fucker was actually naked.

 

I thought I knew God. But it turns out that since he doesn't exist, I never really knew him.

[Heimir]

4 hours ago, MOHO said:

When I counter Mrs. MOHO's churchy lingo with logic and reason she responds with "Satan is making you say that!"

Yeah, exactly, that is what people often assume. But it's quite the opposite: I genuinely care about people and I feel extremely bad when I meet someone who is a devout and fanatic christian. Having been there myself, I know how one gets wounded by hearing over and over again since early childhood that (s)he is sinful and evil, that only through god's grace can one be saved from an eternal torment. I know how one feels one needs to save the world.

 

I wish people could experience the world in an open way. Yes, and make it a bit better for everyone, but not as an outsider, but as someone who just loves life. That they can love and accept themselves and others for who they are, not because they are commanded to.

Christianity is full of good ideas, but the bad ones poison everything. I see so many people wasting their lives because of it, and it just fills me with sadness. What is especially frustrating is that there is so little that I can do. Not that it's impossible to convince them, that is an issue in many cases (people in general don't change their mind easily, especially not when they have been indoctrinated for decades) but not the main one for me, no, I know that leaving christianity is an awful experience and I am not sure that I wish that on other people.

I have played a role in the deconversion of several people, never in a very aggressive and direct way, but still I have had my influence, and it has not always led to the best results, despite me trying to be a supportive and positive friend. One person even had to be admitted in a closed home due to psychological issues. He got out but is still recovering, I hope he will do great, but all this experience has taught me that it's often better to let people be ignorant, so that they can at least be relatively happy. Unless they are causing suffering for others, then they can expect me to give them a hard time.

A challenge is when you see people who are in their twenties or early thirties and who make a lot of life decisions based on their strict faith, and you just see all the signs of an unhappy and unsuccessful life developing in front of your eyes. They can be happy now, but they postpone careers due to missionary work, sometimes endlessly until they are way behind, or unable to ever get started. They don't work on their confidence or psychological issues, but instead look for god all of the time to help them. They are extremely friendly and open all the time, but you see them struggling with all kinds of frustrations.

Yeah, that person has been me. That is why it frustrates me so much I guess. This was not the direction I wanted to take this post in, but I understand myself a bit better now. Fortunately, I made it out 5 years ago and that was on time to get my life in order before I have wasted everything. But around me I see some people who are still christian and I fear that it's too late for some of them. I do wish them the best, even in their ignorance.

[florduh]

3 hours ago, Heimir said:

A challenge is when you see people who are in their twenties or early thirties and who make a lot of life decisions based on their strict faith, and you just see all the signs of an unhappy and unsuccessful life developing in front of your eyes.

Yes, I cringe when I hear something like, "I'll just see where the Lord leads me." 

[TruthSeeker0]

4 hours ago, Heimir said:

A challenge is when you see people who are in their twenties or early thirties and who make a lot of life decisions based on their strict faith, and you just see all the signs of an unhappy and unsuccessful life developing in front of your eyes. They can be happy now, but they postpone careers due to missionary work, sometimes endlessly until they are way behind, or unable to ever get started. They don't work on their confidence or psychological issues, but instead look for god all of the time to help them. They are extremely friendly and open all the time, but you see them struggling with all kinds of frustrations.

 

Ah shit, this was me in so many ways.  I finally woke up and started doing, and going, and making plans. And guess what? Now I got a shitload of crap dumped on me from a fundie relative about how my "poor life choices" aka "siding with the devil", are to blame for the problems a sibling is having, you know, because I influenced them and look where it got us. It was pretty difficult not to flip the bird.

[RealityCheck]

On 8/1/2018 at 10:15 AM, donthodl said:

Did you know God before giving up on the faith? To that I know you'll say. God doesn't exist, so it's impossible to know Him. If that is your response, then you weren't actually a believer to start with. If believing was doing Christian practices, such as attending Church and playing in the worship band.

This along with the rest of your post reeks of the No True Scotsman Fallacy (Google it).  The answer is, we knew God in the same fashion as you would an imaginary friend.  Eventually you set childish things aside and grow the hell up.  

Next question.

[Justus]

On 8/15/2018 at 6:09 PM, mwc said:

You do realize there aren't actually twelve hours of day and twelve hours of night, right?  That's not a true statement. 

 

Without the rotation of the earth then yes there are 12 hours of day and 12 hours of night since half of the earth would in darkness and and the other half would be illuminated by light, provided there were 24 hours in a day.

For all intent and purposes the length of day and night are equal along the equator.  The daylight only appears longer due to light refraction depending upon whether the earth is position above the sun's equator or below the sun's equator.  However they are approximately equal of 12 hours all year long. 

 

On 8/15/2018 at 6:09 PM, mwc said:

   Did I ask what day or night was?  I don't recall doing that.

You are right, you didn't ask that question. 

On 8/14/2018 at 7:02 AM, Joshpantera said:

 

What is a day and what is night?

 

I forgot to interject the appropriate quote I was replying to. 

 

On 8/15/2018 at 9:47 PM, duderonomy said:

 

Odd because in the song the singer told Fanny to "put the blame right on me", so you got that part wrong just like in the rest of your post. 

You are making claims, so you must bring the proof. Your opinions don't count. Using the Bible to prove the Bible doesn't count anymore than using the book The Old Man And The Sea to prove that the events in the book The Old Man And The Sea actually happened in real life.

 

You need to get past the milk of your trollish proselyting level of posts and bring the forum some real meaty goodness to chew on. Bring evidence not from the Bible. Bring some kind of proof. Bring your "A" game, you've got one, right? 

 

 

If you are going to make a claim based upon your knowledge of the Bible scriptures, i.e.," then why the first Commandment that there should be no other gods put ahead of him?" then your argument that the Bible can't be used to disprove your error is absurd.  

 

On 8/15/2018 at 8:27 PM, pratt said:

a perfect god executes an imperfect plan?

 

how does imperfection sets in a perfect person. 

 

if an entity is perfect no blemishes and would NOT know blemishes. 

 

weird logic

 

That is your logic.  The eternal can not create eternal.  That is not the imperfection of the eternal, it is it's perfection.

 

The principle of eternal clearly establishes it has no beginning of existence, neither does it change in nature or form (since it does not cease to exist.).  Thus, the universe and everything within it has a beginning, then it would not  be eternal according to the principle of eternal.  Just a the principle of the mortal defines that anything that has a beginning of life will have an end of life, since the mortal has a beginning of life then it will have an end of life since only the eternal has no end of life.  But the fact nothing in this universe is eternal, does not indicate that all physical matter is bound to the mortal nature.

[Justus]

On 8/15/2018 at 11:29 PM, TruthSeeker0 said:

You're on a site for ex-christians. You're in the Lion's Den. You're conversing with people here who have probably in all likelyhood considered some alternatives a lot more than you have. So, if you get asked to provide your argument for the existence of something, why are you chickening out?

 

Whose chickening out, but I have no obligation to prove anything to someone who espouses a prejudiced bias against the data presented based upon their subjective perspective.  Just like your buddy who made a claim regarding what the first commandment was yet objects if anyone uses the source which he bases his claim form.  That is absured since he obvious didn't get the knowledge of the first commandment from a God that he claims doesn't exist.

[♦ ficino ♦]

1 hour ago, Justus said:

 

Whose chickening out, but I have no obligation to prove anything to someone who espouses a prejudiced bias against the data presented based upon their subjective perspective. 

So then you are not going to make a sale. "My religion might not be false" is a poor sales pitch.

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, Justus said:

The principle of eternal clearly establishes it has no beginning of existence, neither does it change in nature or form (since it does not cease to exist.).  Thus, the universe and everything within it has a beginning, then it would not  be eternal according to the principle of eternal.  Just a the principle of the mortal defines that anything that has a beginning of life will have an end of life, since the mortal has a beginning of life then it will have an end of life since only the eternal has no end of life.  But the fact nothing in this universe is eternal, does not indicate that all physical matter is bound to the mortal nature.

 

 

Why do you say the universe has a beginning? I think it's been around forever. I also feel that the universe can change and still be eternal.

 

So the mortal  has a beginning and an end but certain physical matter can last forever? Which, I guess would make it eternal? But it can't be eternal because anything with a beginning and an end is mortal. Got it. Clear as mud.

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, Justus said:

 

Whose chickening out, but I have no obligation to prove anything to someone who espouses a prejudiced bias against the data presented based upon their subjective perspective.  Just like your buddy who made a claim regarding what the first commandment was yet objects if anyone uses the source which he bases his claim form.  That is absured since he obvious didn't get the knowledge of the first commandment from a God that he claims doesn't exist.

 

You can't really prove anything , anyway. All you have is a book. Books don't prove anything.

[mwc]

6 hours ago, Justus said:

 

Without the rotation of the earth then yes there are 12 hours of day and 12 hours of night since half of the earth would in darkness and and the other half would be illuminated by light, provided there were 24 hours in a day.

For all intent and purposes the length of day and night are equal along the equator.  The daylight only appears longer due to light refraction depending upon whether the earth is position above the sun's equator or below the sun's equator.  However they are approximately equal of 12 hours all year long. 

     How do arrive at any of this?  The number of hours in the day are based on the rotational speed of the earth.  None of this makes any sense if the earth doesn't rotate at all.  If the earth were to never make any sort of rotation then it would appear to make one "rotation" per year.  If the day were based on that then I'll leave it to you to count the hours of day and night given that but it's not 24.

 

     I hate to tell you but approximately equal is not equal.  And no one who measures these things will agree with you that they're ever equal.  It's not an "illusion" due to the atmosphere.  You're just wrong on everything you've said.

 

          mwc

 

[midniterider]

7 hours ago, Justus said:

 The eternal can not create eternal.  That is not the imperfection of the eternal, it is it's perfection.
 

 

I guess your Jesus cannot be eternal since he was born, right?

[pratt]

3 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

I guess your Jesus cannot be eternal since he was born, right?

 

the good book since in the beginning was the word

he is alpha he is omega 

 

a confused book

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, Justus said:

  Just like your buddy who made a claim regarding what the first commandment was yet objects if anyone uses the source which he bases his claim form.  That is absured since he obvious didn't get the knowledge of the first commandment from a God that he claims doesn't exist.

 

 Whether or not there is a God, the bible has some illogical baloney in it.

Whether or not we believe in God, the bible has some illogical baloney in it.

[midniterider]

11 minutes ago, pratt said:

 

the good book since in the beginning was the word

he is alpha he is omega 

 

a confused book

 

Yes, the alpha and omega are the beginning and the end. Therefore Jesus is not eternal.

[Astreja]

8 hours ago, Justus said:

The principle of eternal clearly establishes it has no beginning of existence, neither does it change in nature or form (since it does not cease to exist). 

 

 

Why deny the possibility of change to an entity just because it's eternal?  Strictly applied, that would prohibit your god from taking any action at all, because that would create an avalanche of related changes:

• Outflows of energy would change its energy status
• Usage of the energy on anything external to itself would change its environment, and possibly also its knowledge of the "outside" and storehouse of experiences

No, I think you should discard the "unchanging" part of that definition lest you define your god out of existence altogether.  

[Astreja]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

Why do you say the universe has a beginning? I think it's been around forever. I also feel that the universe can change and still be eternal.

 

The current universe may not be eternal, but I believe that there are some sort of matter/energy building blocks that are eternal.

 

No idea what the raw materials could have been, but I'll make a wild guess and say quarks and quantum fluctuations, or something even smaller that we haven't discovered yet.

[TruthSeeker0]

On 8/18/2018 at 7:25 PM, Justus said:

 

Whose chickening out, but I have no obligation to prove anything to someone who espouses a prejudiced bias against the data presented based upon their subjective perspective.  Just like your buddy who made a claim regarding what the first commandment was yet objects if anyone uses the source which he bases his claim form.  That is absured since he obvious didn't get the knowledge of the first commandment from a God that he claims doesn't exist.

Then what are you here for? If you don't want to discuss the case for and against the existence of the christian god, what's your purpose on this site? Surely you realize it's an ex-christian community, and in any debate, we are going to start there.

 

As for those who you think "espouses a prejudiced bias against the data presented based upon their subjective perspective," that's a bit rich. You think the Christian perspective isn't a subjective one? It's based on personal faith or what people call a relationship with Jesus or god, or both. That's not subjective?

 

You're giving us an emotional reaction here, not one that uses logic and reasoning to discuss things. Before you go any further with this claim that those here have come to their conclusions based on a subjective perspective, I think you should read through this excellent post of @Citsongas that very clearly elucidates in a rational manner much of what many people here have pondered during the process of leaving their christian faith behind.

 

 

 

It's very tiring when people like you come here and apparently want to have a discussion, but then you don't really want to, and all you want to do is make absurd claims about bias and subjective perspective. After all, that's the easiest way for you to put up the mental fences and defend your beliefs - decide beforehand how other people operate and make decisions, instead of actually listening to them and considering what they have to say.

[disillusioned]

I swear,  every time Justus comes back he gets even sillier. 

[florduh]

2 hours ago, disillusioned said:

I swear,  every time Justus comes back he gets even sillier. 

At times I wonder if it isn't a Poe.

[Joshpantera]

Yes, god is the 'non-eternal, eternal' and 'finite, infinite,' uncreated, creator of everything aside from himself, because, err, he was never created. He readily turned himself on and off like a light switch to provide the earth with "evenings and mornings" until he finally got around to creating the sun, moon, and stars four days later. 

 

Yeah, that's the ticket!!!!

 

 

[Geezer]

I left God lots of messages, but He never got back to me. So, I had no choice but to de-friend him. 

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 8/18/2018 at 7:25 PM, Justus said:

I have no obligation to prove anything to someone who espouses a prejudiced bias against the data presented based upon their subjective perspective.

 

We did not arrive at our current position because of a prejudiced bias against Christianity or data. Keep in mind that this is an ex-christian site; in other words, we used to be Christians. We actually came from a bias for Christianity. If we were merely following our prejudiced biases, then we would still be Christians, because that is what our bias was. It was only after looking beyond our prejudiced biases for Christianity and honestly and fairly assessing the data that we came to the realization that Christianity is not true.