Should We Expect a Higher Consciousness

[Guest end3]

Pretty open ended thought...lots of questions to be offered up for consideration.  Tired of the same old thread.....hoping for something a little more open.

 

Thanks.

[florduh]

No. This is it but you have to realize it. Perspective is everything.

[Guest end3]

29 minutes ago, florduh said:

No. This is it but you have to realize it. Perspective is everything.

Well the next thought would be to define consciousness....which I think I will skip at this point. 

 

I think it would be fair to say that there are different "things" for lack of a better word, that are conscious.....animals, insects.   Perhaps plants are conscious, but probably more of just a reaction. 

 

And I guess we seemingly we have levels of consciousness. 

 

A higher consciousness in my mind would be a collective consciousness.....a political group or religious or moral group.

 

And then I guess we ask is there a consciousness associated with a larger grouping of stuff/matter, whatever.  Maybe like the shit Captain Kurk would encounter on occasion.  The big cornucopia shaped blob episode comes to mind.

 

Truthfully I don't like your answer.....seems so finite/absolute and short sighted. 

[florduh]

54 minutes ago, end3 said:

Truthfully I don't like your answer.....seems so finite/absolute and short sighted. 

Must be your perspective.

 

I am not very woo oriented, but I see Christianity as the antithesis of spirituality. My thought was that we don't lack anything other than understanding and perspective. All is well if we could just get over the programming that we need some outside force, discipline or belief in order to be whole. You are already a Buddha and Nirvana is no different than ordinary existence, but we are trained from birth to think we are incomplete and we must attain something by one method or another. If you believe that is the case, then so it is, for you.

 

WOOHOO!

 

[sdelsolray]

2 hours ago, end3 said:

Well the next thought would be to define consciousness....which I think I will skip at this point. 

...

 

 

End3 giveth and End3 taketh away.

[Guest end3]

54 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

End3 giveth and End3 taketh away.

The reasoning was there have been threads regarding consciousness, if I'm not mistaken, that meander on unresolved....as this one will.

 

But, Florduh has immediately shut the door to systems that might also produce consciousness....which is his duty as a mod... to tow the party line.

 

Maybe there are certain or similar patterns in systems that result in consciousness.  Just thinking out loud. 

 

Someone jump outside the box.  Promise I won't laugh.

[duderonomy]

35 minutes ago, end3 said:

The reasoning was there have been threads regarding consciousness, if I'm not mistaken, that meander on unresolved....as this one will.

 

But, Florduh has immediately shut the door to systems that might also produce consciousness....which is his duty as a mod... to tow the party line.

 

Maybe there are certain or similar patterns in systems that result in consciousness.  Just thinking out loud. 

 

Someone jump outside the box.  Promise I won't laugh.

 

You promise you won't laugh? Ok then here goes:  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 

Also, O End3 keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called.

Plus, of course bugs and plants have consciousness.  We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

 

So what are you looking for exactly? What are you missing? You have the Bible, which is the Word of God,  isn't that enough?

 

Shouldn't you be saving souls instead of wondering if broccoli and the cheese we cover it with have consciousness?  I bet you wonder if leaves know when autumn comes that they are about to die, because as a Christian that's what is important to think about, right?  I imagine you stay awake nights wondering if there is a holstein in Texas being herded onto a truck and thinking, "Oh fuck. Why couldn't I have been born in India?" Because next to these kinds of things the blood of Jesus Yeshua isn't that important, right? 

 

 

[disillusioned]

A higher consciousness? I don't know what that means. Higher than what? What is consciousness?

 

Should we expect it? I don't know what that means either.  I'm not even sure we should expect this.  Or anything,  for that matter.  But he we are.

 

Happy to consider these things,  but at the moment I'm afraid I don't know what this thread is supposed to be about. 

[florduh]

11 hours ago, end3 said:

But, Florduh has immediately shut the door to systems that might also produce consciousness....which is his duty as a mod... to tow the party line.

Reading comprehension. Look into it, m'kay?

 

And it's "toe" the line.

[midniterider]

16 hours ago, end3 said:

Pretty open ended thought...lots of questions to be offered up for consideration.  Tired of the same old thread.....hoping for something a little more open.

 

Thanks.

 

I think we 'are' a higher consciousness pretending to not be.

[Guest end3]

5 hours ago, disillusioned said:

A higher consciousness? I don't know what that means. Higher than what? What is consciousness?

 

Should we expect it? I don't know what that means either.  I'm not even sure we should expect this.  Or anything,  for thai matter.  But he we are.

 

Happy to consider these things,  but at the moment I'm afraid I don't know what this thread is supposed to be about. 

In my mind I'm thinking about a larger consciousness, the consciousness of a larger organization that's capable of producing consciousness....i.e., does the universe possess a consciousness.  For example, a human consciousness appears limited more to immediate environment and certainly to the organization producing said consciousness....while some people claim that their connection is a bit greater,  to the whole of nature or to departed souls.....a oneness or awareness to a larger organization.

 

So by higher, I am meaning larger and possibly more complex. 

 

I think we should expect something larger.  We seem to have different levels right here before us as examples.  A plant seems connected but is it aware.  Animals seem aware, but to what level.  Humans seem aware and sometimes more connected.    Idk, maybe different organizations and complexities define different consciousness.

 

One would speculate there is nothing more given we understand the building blocks of the organizations. 

 

But Florduh, the point is brother, we don't.  Toe on that you old fart.

 

[Guest end3]

12 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

You promise you won't laugh? Ok then here goes:  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 

Also, O End3 keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called.

Plus, of course bugs and plants have consciousness.  We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

 

So what are you looking for exactly? What are you missing? You have the Bible, which is the Word of God,  isn't that enough?

 

Shouldn't you be saving souls instead of wondering if broccoli and the cheese we cover it with have consciousness?  I bet you wonder if leaves know when autumn comes that they are about to die, because as a Christian that's what is important to think about, right?  I imagine you stay awake nights wondering if there is a holstein in Texas being herded onto a truck and thinking, "Oh fuck. Why couldn't I have been born in India?" Because next to these kinds of things the blood of Jesus Yeshua isn't that important, right? 

 

 

Actually I was thinking about how you poor bastards are stuck in your beliefs, dismal as they seem....with no way out other than waiting on science for a glimmer of hope.  I like to think it's my personal brand of compassion for you assholes.

[Guest end3]

16 hours ago, florduh said:

Must be your perspective.

 

I am not very woo oriented, but I see Christianity as the antithesis of spirituality. My thought was that we don't lack anything other than understanding and perspective. All is well if we could just get over the programming that we need some outside force, discipline or belief in order to be whole. You are already a Buddha and Nirvana is no different than ordinary existence, but we are trained from birth to think we are incomplete and we must attain something by one method or another. If you believe that is the case, then so it is, for you.

 

WOOHOO!

 

Reality doesn't really confirm this stance.  Granted there appear to be glimpses of this, I don't see us in constant unity with anything, but rather a dichotomy between self and something higher or self and lower....where self garners the larger share. 

 

Which is an interesting thought really.  We play a role between things lower and things higher than ourselves.  We don't really like to acknowledge either. 

 

And is there a happiness in acceptance of our role.

 

Yes, I read this more completely this time.  My typical first read is defensive.  Apologies you old bastard. 

[florduh]

2 minutes ago, end3 said:

Reality doesn't really confirm this stance.  Granted there appear to be glimpses of this, I don't see us in constant unity with anything, but rather a dichotomy between self and something higher....where self garners the larger share. 

 

Which is an interesting thought really.  We play a role between things lower and things higher than ourselves.  We don't really like to acknowledge either. 

 

And is there a happiness in acceptance of our role.

 

Yes, I read this more completely this time.  My typical first read is defensive.  Apologies you old bastard. 

 

Give me a reason to accept the premise that there is a reality of "higher, middle and low" because that sounds like an unfounded assertion or axiom you want to work from. That seems akin to stating there are tall trees, medium size trees and short trees and of these the tall ones are the best. They're all just trees.

[Guest end3]

20 minutes ago, florduh said:

 

Give me a reason to accept the premise that there is a reality of "higher, middle and low" because that sounds like an unfounded assertion or axiom you want to work from. That seems akin to stating there are tall trees, medium size trees and short trees and of these the tall ones are the best. They're all just trees.

What comes to mind immediately is the exploitation of other organizations.....let's take out below and above....but exploitation of organizations in proximity.  I use above and below because I am considering our consciousness "above" that of a plant or animal.

[florduh]

2 minutes ago, end3 said:

I use above and below because I am considering our consciousness "above" that of a plant or animal.

Why? 

[Guest end3]

1 minute ago, florduh said:

Why? 

This discussion we are having and the path you are trying to lead me down actually demonstrates the dichotomy.   Is this not enough for you?  And I'm one of the more introspective rednecks out there.  You'd like to argue more?

[florduh]

1 minute ago, end3 said:

This discussion we are having and the path you are trying to lead me down actually demonstrates the dichotomy.   Is this not enough for you?  And I'm one of the more introspective rednecks out there.  You'd like to argue more?

I'm not leading down any path. I'm asking for reasoned arguments behind your assertions. What I see, correct me if I'm wrong, is you are using a hierarchy to assign value to the various expressions of life and activities of same. Where did that grading system come from?

 

[Guest end3]

4 minutes ago, florduh said:

I'm not leading down any path. I'm asking for reasoned arguments behind your assertions. What I see, correct me if I'm wrong, is you are using a hierarchy to assign value to the various expressions of life and activities of same. Where did that grading system come from?

 

I'm not necessarily attempting to assign value.  I gather our take on value would be formed through various avenues...culture, religion, innate. 

I gave you exploitation rather than a more co-equal.  Reasoning also seems relevant.  I don't believe plants can reason, nor do animals have the same reasoning ability as do humans. 

[Guest end3]

It seems reasonable that our reasoning ability gives rise to self over unity.

[florduh]

1 minute ago, end3 said:

I'm not necessarily attempting to assign value.  I gather our take on value would be formed through various avenues...culture, religion, innate. 

I gave you exploitation rather than a more co-equal.  Reasoning also seems relevant.  I don't believe plants can reason, nor do animals have the same reasoning ability as do humans. 

Exploitation prize has to go to the humans in this system. Reason is the best tool humans have, but other species are quite successful using other tools. Naturally we all think whatever "we" are doing is best.

 

Imagine an alien life form observing our planet. What might he view as the most successful species? Elephants have strong family bonds and even mourn their dead. Lions are fierce hunters and are first to eat. Ants cooperate in huge numbers to gather food and build complex structures. Eagles have the best vision and can also fly. Cockroaches are virtually indestructible. Kudzu would cover every inch of the land if there were not efforts to contain it. Humans can reason.

 

 

[Guest end3]

3 minutes ago, florduh said:

Exploitation prize has to go to the humans in this system. Reason is the best tool humans have, but other species are quite successful using other tools. Naturally we all think whatever "we" are doing is best.

 

Imagine an alien life form observing our planet. What might he view as the most successful species? Elephants have strong family bonds and even mourn their dead. Lions are fierce hunters and are first to eat. Ants cooperate in huge numbers to gather food and build complex structures. Eagles have the best vision and can also fly. Cockroaches are virtually indestructible. Kudzu would cover every inch of the land if there were not efforts to contain it. Humans can reason.

 

 

If we can reason, it makes sense that our consciousness is probably wider in scope as a function of necessity.....and curiosity I am also guessing. 

 

 

[Guest end3]

I guess the only thing that comes to mind as a potential for a different organization that is easily foreseeable is AI.  Does AI have a conscious.  And if it does, what way does it lean, towards self preservation or crap, I forget the word. 

 

Anyhow it also seems reasonable that the definition of particles and organization has relevance to whether there is a larger organization of consciousness.  <Insert comments from a particle nerd here>.  

[midniterider]

Maybe nobody has consciousness.

[Guest end3]

20 hours ago, florduh said:

Must be your perspective.

 

I am not very woo oriented, but I see Christianity as the antithesis of spirituality.

 

Given our conversation thus far....reasoning giving rise to self, to manipulation, to exploitation.  One would think that absence of reasoning, i.e. faith would make one less selfish.  Like babies, or the harmony of nature, or more grace-filled.

 

Feel free to stop me anywhere before this is making you nervous.