Should We Expect a Higher Consciousness

[Guest end3]

36 minutes ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

Okay well I think it makes the most sense to start from where we each are coming from. I can argue/debate/discuss with a "straw christian" but I'm going to be making assumptions about you that may or may not be true so in the interest of knowing where we're starting from here, can you answer a few simple questions? These are not "gotchas". There is no trick here, I'm just trying to understand what your actual perspective is. So, here's my questionnaire:

 

1. Were you raised in Christianity? If not, how did you come to be in it?

2. What denomination, if any, are you a part of?

3. Are you more on the liberal metaphorical/mythical end of things in interpretation or more literalistic. Simple litmus test... do you believe the garden of eden story is a myth or a literal tale about a real talking snake and etc.?

4. Do you think your religion is "one of many paths up the same mountain" or are you a "my religion is the truth and everybody else is different degrees of wrongness?" If the latter, what makes you think this?

 

I could delve into stuff like hell here, but that feels like a "gotcha" even though I am interested to know what your view on that is. You're welcome to ask me any questions about my views as well.

 

And I will only be checking in once a day in the evening around this time (my internet blocker is helping me not be on the internet too much so I really can't check throughout the day or multiple times per day because doing that goes from "I'll look at this for one minute" to, "i'm going to just waste hours online and compose five novels' worth of posts." Plus the blocker wont' let me. That's the beautiful thing about the blocker.)

1) Was raised in a Methodist church...but never was cognizant of church...just to  young....so I just went where the family went.  Mom said Dad subscribed to the "God is dead" movement in the late 60's early 70's?  Church ended for us after that.  So technically, I really disliked organized religion of any kind...especially televangists through my teen and college years.  Then started with a Bible study group I guess in my late 20's....baptized at 33.

2) Went to a small Church of Christ here in Tx as a function of my marriage...her family was CoC.

3) More mythical but not totally.

4) I lean towards people trying to describe the same thing with language hindering.  Not being a student of other religions, I can't truthfully say whether I find a better description of reality and truth out there.

 

Regarding hell, I hope there is no such place, but also think if there is a Heaven, the there certainly is a possibility for hell. 

 

Good luck on your discipline thing.  I wish I had a Dr. Pepper blocker...  take your time.

[VerbosityCat]

59 minutes ago, end3 said:

1) Was raised in a Methodist church...but never was cognizant of church...just to  young....so I just went where the family went.  Mom said Dad subscribed to the "God is dead" movement in the late 60's early 70's?  Church ended for us after that.  So technically, I really disliked organized religion of any kind...especially televangists through my teen and college years.  Then started with a Bible study group I guess in my late 20's....baptized at 33.

2) Went to a small Church of Christ here in Tx as a function of my marriage...her family was CoC.

3) More mythical but not totally.

4) I lean towards people trying to describe the same thing with language hindering.  Not being a student of other religions, I can't truthfully say whether I find a better description of reality and truth out there.

 

Regarding hell, I hope there is no such place, but also think if there is a Heaven, the there certainly is a possibility for hell. 

 

Good luck on your discipline thing.  I wish I had a Dr. Pepper blocker...  take your time.

 

This is long. i'mgoing to post this and then log out for the night.

 

I know a Church of Christ lady and I'm not sure if it's just pockets of people but many of them are pretty laid back individuals. I was raised fundamentalist pentecostal. Christianity gave me panic attacks. The whole thing with rapture and hell and angels and demons was just...yeah no. I deconverted around 20, though I'm not sure there was a singular "moment" of deconversion. It was more a slow process. By my teens (when I could drive) I was doing my best to avoid church. I would help with the 2 and 3 year old sunday school class to avoid the church service, and otherwise I would often leave in my car during church and show up at the end and sit in the back like I'd been there the whole time. As soon as I could (adulthood), I stopped attending.

 

But lest you think I left because of a "bad experience", there is NOTHING I like about this religion. Not even the good parts. I find it unbearably lame and dorky. It seems like half the time Christians even well-meaning ones live in this fake bubble. There is all this weird Jargon lots of Christians use that is Christianese and makes them seem like aliens to normal people. Shit like holiness, sanctification, giving your heart to Jesus, discipleship, etc. etc. It's just DORKY. It's painful. And Christian heaven sounds boring. I remember in my teens hoping NONE of it was true.Neither hell nor heaven because they both seemed like different kinds of torture. You can either spend your time bored with no new adventures in a perfect stagnant world of worshipping god or you can burn. Gee, what lovely choices.

 

re: mythical, what is the overall mythological arc you see in the bible? I see so many nicer Christians really trying to salvage the bible and make it not evil, but I can't help but think it's an evil ignorant book written by ignorant people and caused so much pain and suffering throughout history that I'm not sure it deserves a seat at the table anymore. I do appreciate that Christianity is mellowing. And if most Christians were much more mellow about it and didn't think they had the one true way, it would be much easier to tolerate them. Like the set of beliefs you ascribe, if we knew each other IRL I probably wouldn't have some huge problem with you. You sound a bit like my brother and he's a normal sane human who doesn't really believe in hell... he's in the "I hope not" category of hell existence belief.

 

Also... let's take a mythological look of the biblical creation myth... in this story we are basically taught that the earth is a punishment for being bad. The world is fallen and bad. Women can't be trusted. Women need to be treated like children and dominated and ruled by men. And men are superior. Also, for some reason it's super important that we "obey god" like little children and knowledge is bad.

 

What value am I supposed to take out of that? Especially as a woman? In comparison... in the norse creation myth man and woman are created pretty much at the same time. Neither is considered lesser than the other and neither is made to rule over the other. Odin gives the humans no "orders or commands" except that man is supposed to protect woman.And that's it. He names them and sends them on their way to midgard (earth), which is a place created to be a safe place for humans to live and be (safe compared to frost giants).

 

As a woman, I can't help but feel that every religion isn't "saying the same things". Some religions are pretty hateful to women. What we think of as "patriarchy" largely comes down to us from the Abrahamic religions. Before that, pagan faiths had both gods and goddesses. and SURE it was a "patriarchal culture" but not "Women are shit and liars and evil and should be completely dominated and ruled over by men" patriarchal. There were several pagan societies where women were treated pretty well. The only place women have ever been treated better is modern western society. (And I wouldn't thank Christianity for that because the more Christianity fades, the better women get treated by society in general. It is ALWAYS some Christian nitwit holding back women's rights or trying to reverse those we've acquired.)

 

So re: people trying to describe the same thing... hmmm I don't like the whole "let's pretend all religions are the same religion" idea because it tends to just try to force everybody into this watered down mold.Admittedly I'm not going to respect a christianity that insists they have "the truth" over and above other people, at the same time, I don't like the idea that "this is all the exact same thing" because I don't think it is. Even the nice Christian worldview is very different from other views.

 

Like... i don't believe in Sin. I don't believe in Christian heaven or hell. at least not in any objective sense. I don't believe "obeying" or worshipping any god has any value to an individual or society and I don't respect any god as worthy of that title who demands or requires it. All through the bible we get endless do this don't do that. Just endless fucking orders from a deity who creates people to be his personal slaves. There is talk of free will but no actual respect for it.

 

And despite all the Christian calls for holiness, there is no actual PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for anything. Nobody is judged by their deeds because hey, if you say the magic prayer you go to heaven. It's really the most amoral religion for that reason. Now certainly some christians believe you ALSO have to be a good person, so there is that, I guess.

 

I don't believe the world is "fallen" and in need of "saving". I find it offensive that a god would even think to come and "save people", particularly if he can't have the good grace to do it without a "gotcha" (believe in me, worship me, accept me, blah blah blah.) You're not really a hero if you're just doing it for your own benefit. And I can't see it any other way with a God that not only has to set up some convoluted scenario to "save us", but needs endless fawning praise, thanks, worship, and belief in that event. I mean, is this god, 12?

 

And maybe you don't see it that way, but you also are coloring a bit outside the lines of what the majority of Christianity has been for the majority of its time on this planet. I can appreciate that some Christians are trying to be more liberal or open-minded or tolerant. It's good progress. At the same time... my issues with Christianity are issues with the religion as it is generally believed and practiced and has been for centuries, not necessarily with the "nice version" except so far as it allows cover for the psycho Christians.

 

On my way out the door of the religion I tried "nicer Christianity". Episcopalians are some of the most genuinely nice, lovely and liberal Christians out there, but I guess for me, without the stick of hell, I don't really see the appeal of "nice Christianity". It's completely antithetical to my values and IMO to human dignity.

 

And while it may be true that you value love for all as some moral standard, and I would agree with you on that to some degree (I think giving out this love too generously to those who will see it as weakness and use it to harm you: example muslim extremists. is foolish in the extreme) but overall the world would be a better place if we were all a little more decent to each other.However, the history of christianity is just not the history of decency.

 

I get that it's not exactly fair for me to say "you can't follow Jesus because of all this shit that Christianity has caused."  But it does feel sort of like a bait and switch like... Christianity Inc has sent you in as "the good cop" to disarm the heathens. (and also I'm NOT saying you "can't " follow jesus because I don't have that authority and it would be shitty. I just don't really understand the appeal of any of it. Also, you have to deal with all the baggage of Christianity. It just seems like a lot of fucking drama to claim a religion that you aren't really practicing like it's been traditionally practiced. You might argue that you are practicing it as it SHOULD have been practiced, and we might agree on that point.)

 

At the same time, I have a hard time understanding what exactly the appeal of Christianity is. So what is the appeal exactly?

 

Also, do you believe attempting to convert people to your religion is appropriate? Because that also shades this conversation. I can say 100% that while I like my gods, I am certainly not inviting you to follow them. Nor do I have any interest in you doing so. But the problem with discussions with even the nicest Christians is that it always seems that they want a notch in their belt. They want to "bring somebody to Jesus". Is that your motivation in discussion? Or do you accept that nobody on this board is going to join/rejoin your religion?

[Guest end3]

22 hours ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

And while it may be true that you value love for all as some moral standard, and I would agree with you on that to some degree (I think giving out this love too generously to those who will see it as weakness and use it to harm you: example muslim extremists. is foolish in the extreme) but overall the world would be a better place if we were all a little more decent to each other.However, the history of christianity is just not the history of decency.

 

I get that it's not exactly fair for me to say "you can't follow Jesus because of all this shit that Christianity has caused."  But it does feel sort of like a bait and switch like... Christianity Inc has sent you in as "the good cop" to disarm the heathens. (and also I'm NOT saying you "can't " follow jesus because I don't have that authority and it would be shitty. I just don't really understand the appeal of any of it. Also, you have to deal with all the baggage of Christianity. It just seems like a lot of fucking drama to claim a religion that you aren't really practicing like it's been traditionally practiced. You might argue that you are practicing it as it SHOULD have been practiced, and we might agree on that point.)

 

At the same time, I have a hard time understanding what exactly the appeal of Christianity is. So what is the appeal exactly?

 

Also, do you believe attempting to convert people to your religion is appropriate? Because that also shades this conversation. I can say 100% that while I like my gods, I am certainly not inviting you to follow them. Nor do I have any interest in you doing so. But the problem with discussions with even the nicest Christians is that it always seems that they want a notch in their belt. They want to "bring somebody to Jesus". Is that your motivation in discussion? Or do you accept that nobody on this board is going to join/rejoin your religion?

Not sure I'm going to have any meaningful answers for you C.  Reading the Bible metaphorically, it's a decent connection to what I see in reality...the dichotomy of humanity....the condition.  Anecdotal evidence is a big one for me when comparing Christianity to reality.

 

Personally I find feelings that I don't find with human associations.....other than certain music.  It's more of a connection to something where I derive strength and personal meaning.  Church buildings are inspiring to me for some reason...

 

I feel conversion comes through personal belief and then works/examples that bring people that they might consider your beliefs.  I think that pretty straightforward.  I'm not big into intentional evangelism.  As I stated earlier, if there is a Heaven where it's all good, no pain, etc., then certainly I would like everyone to end up there.  I am though to a position where I think peoples paths are part of something larger and they must do their path.  What my role in there path is, doesn't really seem something for me to decide for them....other than an example of love.  I'm not a conventional Christian when it comes to visiting with the people here.  I don't wish harm etc. to come to people here nor wish them bad lives, but I'm going to discuss my points.....whether it becomes rude or not seems irrelevant as long as we understand each other in the end....the intentions being moving us all along that path in whatever condition we are in....but hoping that we are moving people forward a little better.

 

An aside, when the teacher said, "this is a 1000 word essay", I'm betting you made an A every time.  Could have used you back in the day.  Thanks C.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VerbosityCat]

18 minutes ago, end3 said:

Not sure I'm going to have any meaningful answers for you C.  Reading the Bible metaphorically, it's a decent connection to what I see in reality...the dichotomy of humanity....the condition.  Anecdotal evidence is a big one for me when comparing Christianity to reality.

 

Personally I find feelings that I don't find with human associations.....other than certain music.  It's more of a connection to something where I derive strength and personal meaning.  Church buildings are inspiring to me for some reason...

 

I feel conversion comes through personal belief and then works/examples that bring people that they might consider your beliefs.  I think that pretty straightforward.  I'm not big into intentional evangelism.  As I stated earlier, if there is a Heaven where it's all good, no pain, etc., then certainly I would like everyone to end up there.  I am though to a position where I think peoples paths are part of something larger and they must do their path.  What my role in there path is, doesn't really seem something for me to decide for them....other than an example of love.  I'm not a conventional Christian when it comes to visiting with the people here.  I don't wish harm etc. to come to people here nor wish them bad lives, but I'm going to discuss my points.....whether it becomes rude or not seems irrelevant as long as we understand each other in the end....the intentions being moving us all along that path in whatever condition we are in....but hoping that we are moving people forward a little better.

 

An aside, when the teacher said, "this is a 1000 word essay", I'm betting you made an A every time.  Could have used you back in the day.  Thanks C.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I appreciate all these sentiments but I don't really feel like there is anything for us to discuss. It's not really an interfaith dialogue if the focus is just on your views (not that I have any trouble volunteering mine whether asked or not, but it was kind of clear from your first reply that while I appreciate you answering my questions, you had no questions for me, so you don't really seem to have an interest in other people's spiritual views/perspectives and I'm really not sure how an interesting discussion can unfold from that.)

 

I mean I'm not going to yell at you or browbeat you because, if you're being honest with me in your answers, then you aren't actually "my enemy". While I have nothing but contempt for Christianity as a religion "in general" for MANY reasons both historical and current, despite you holding the label Christian, you aren't really part of any of that.

 

I have no desire or urge to deconvert you and don't really care what you believe as long as you aren't hurting people. I'm not going to use a double standard with you and some other spiritual person who follows some other path. There are assholes in all spiritual paths and decent people in all paths. I find organized religion (all of them) in general pretty problematic for a lot of reasons. But it's not my business or my job to try to convince everybody to leave organized religion.

 

But yeah, I don't really see anywhere to go from here in this discussion if you have no curiosity about any other viewpoints. Though I do appreciate you explaining a little bit about your own.

[VerbosityCat]

And yes, writing long papers was never a problem for me.

[Guest end3]

The one thing that intrigues me is why are you still uptight about Christianity to the level that you seem to be.  I'm not trying to be critical, and don't know your age, but it seems like all of us at some point say ah, whatever, you do you....and go on.  Have I missed something....were you traumatized in some manner to the point of ptsd?  Divorce did that to me and I can't seem to let go of the anger for my ex, but the rest of my life is just letting people be people.  Again, please don't think that I am inconsiderate, whatever, but just something I noticed.  thanks.

 

* I do remember that you had disdain for historical reasons and that it never appealed period to you, but was there something else that keeps you at such a level?

I can be interested in you as a person and your beliefs....that's not an issue, but I have hesitated to ask your views because you seem so set.....and having a dialogue would be almost meaningless from what I am gathering.  

[VerbosityCat]

25 minutes ago, end3 said:

The one thing that intrigues me is why are you still uptight about Christianity to the level that you seem to be.  I'm not trying to be critical, and don't know your age, but it seems like all of us at some point say ah, whatever, you do you....and go on.  Have I missed something....were you traumatized in some manner to the point of ptsd?  Divorce did that to me and I can't seem to let go of the anger for my ex, but the rest of my life is just letting people be people.  Again, please don't think that I am inconsiderate, whatever, but just something I noticed.  thanks.

 

* I do remember that you had disdain for historical reasons and that it never appealed period to you, but was there something else that keeps you at such a level?

I can be interested in you as a person and your beliefs....that's not an issue, but I have hesitated to ask your views because you seem so set.....and having a dialogue would be almost meaningless from what I am gathering.  

 

Well I assumed that was what we were doing, having an interfaith dialogue where we would each come to understand what the other person believed and why without the need to try to convert the other since I have no interest in converting people and you should assume straight out of the gate that such an attempt on your part would be a waste of time. If dialogue is only meaningful to you if it can potentially result in conversion, yeah.

 

Re: why am I so "uptight".

 

1. I believe I already said christianity gave me panic attacks. i'm not being flip. It was a psychological terror shitshow for me until I was able to fully escape it.

 

2. Even being fully out of it, I still have family who are hardcore fundie and always trying to drag me back in... see point one. It's fucking exhausting being 20 years out of this shit and STILL having family members use ANY sign of weakness in me as an excuse to try to drag me back into their nightmare clown world.

 

3. I just fucking hate this religion. If not for this religion I wouldn't feel so alone in my spiritual path. (had christianity not come along, most people would still be praying to their ancestral gods, and if they didn't believe in them, they would still be keeping cultural traditions without layering an irrelevant religion on top of it.) I don't like organized religion but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer it if my family also preferred the old gods to the desert dipshit deity. There is a rift and division in my family that can never be healed because they are FUNDIES.

 

4. I'm irritated by all the social progress Christianity has retarded. All the scientific progress Christianity has retarded. All the ancient knowledge humanity had that was destroyed... one example: The burning of the library of Alexandria. I mean I'm sorry I know this is all WAY in the past but I fucking HATE that Christianity was this total psycho religion just cutting a swath of terror through Europe and everywhere else it has landed (and spoiler alert, we're about to go through this shit again with Islam)... though Europe got the worst of it, and I'm supposed to be like "Oh hey great, Christianity is awesome." I mean what the fuck am I missing here? If some dude raped his kids, am I supposed to share a table with him for a meal just because he went to therapy and reformed? While I won't hold every individual responsible for shit they didn't do (which is why, knowing more of your views I don't feel compelled to hate on you.) I utterly revile Christianity. May it be torn apart and destroyed just like it destroyed every other ideology it came in contact with.

 

I'm 40. I'm sorry if you feel this is a reaction only appropriate for a teenager. Being a member of the dominant religion, however freely you color outside the lines, affords you a luxury the rest of us don't have when it comes to just fluffing off the many crimes of the faith.

 

Not really sure why you can so flippantly brush off all the damage Christianity has done in this world both in the past and even in the present. Not sure why all the millions of children who have been brainwashed and terrorized with fears of hell and the rapture is something you "don't get" the ire over. Like seriously WTF? This right here is my problem with Christianity. And this is part of why it's pretty difficult for me to just hold hands and sing with the "nice christians" because there seems to be no real awareness of just what a shitfactory your religion has been. And I'm not saying you should feel personally responsible for any of it. It's not your fault. But you could at least have the good grace to understand why everybody in the world isn't super excited about Christianity's continued existence.

 

Christianity only gets nicer the less power it has to control and hurt people. So that's not a good sign for me.

 

And you'll note I DID say "you do you, whatever". I mean I might as well have used those words. But just because I'm giving YOU a pass doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to be like yippy skippy christianity! whee! Fuck Christianity.

 

 

[VerbosityCat]

Also, you seem to have trouble with the idea that I can like/respect a person but have nothing but contempt for the overall religion they practice. If Christians can "hate the sin but love the sinner" why is it so difficult to understand I can like the Christian but want to cunt punt the Christianity?

 

Again, doesn't mean I'm going to lump you in with the worst of Christians/Christianity. While I don't see the appeal in even the nicest version of this religion I feel very differently toward NICE people who hold moderate non-insane, non-fundie Christian views. My brother is very much like you in his views. I love my brother. We can have mutually respectful spiritual discussions. But I mean, I don't really know why it's so hard to understand my hatred for Christianity. Or that it is a "general purpose hatred" aimed at specific things both past and present and if you are not doing those things, you are not part of the problem.

 

I don't see you personally as part of the problem, but if Christianity as a faith system died tomorrow, I would dance on its grave.

[Guest end3]

7 minutes ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

Well I assumed that was what we were doing, having an interfaith dialogue where we would each come to understand what the other person believed and why without the need to try to convert the other since I have no interest in converting people and you should assume straight out of the gate that such an attempt on your part would be a waste of time. If dialogue is only meaningful to you if it can potentially result in conversion, yeah.

 

Re: why am I so "uptight".

 

1. I believe I already said christianity gave me panic attacks. i'm not being flip. It was a psychological terror shitshow for me until I was able to fully escape it.

 

2. Even being fully out of it, I still have family who are hardcore fundie and always trying to drag me back in... see point one. It's fucking exhausting being 20 years out of this shit and STILL having family members use ANY sign of weakness in me as an excuse to try to drag me back into their nightmare clown world.

 

3. I just fucking hate this religion. If not for this religion I wouldn't feel so alone in my spiritual path. (had christianity not come along, most people would still be praying to their ancestral gods, and if they didn't believe in them, they would still be keeping cultural traditions without layering an irrelevant religion on top of it.) I don't like organized religion but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer it if my family also preferred the old gods to the desert dipshit deity. There is a rift and division in my family that can never be healed because they are FUNDIES.

 

4. I'm irritated by all the social progress Christianity has retarded. All the scientific progress Christianity has retarded. All the ancient knowledge humanity had that was destroyed... one example: The burning of the library of Alexandria. I mean I'm sorry I know this is all WAY in the past but I fucking HATE that Christianity was this total psycho religion just cutting a swath of terror through Europe and everywhere else it has landed (and spoiler alert, we're about to go through this shit again with Islam)... though Europe got the worst of it, and I'm supposed to be like "Oh hey great, Christianity is awesome." I mean what the fuck am I missing here? If some dude raped his kids, am I supposed to share a table with him for a meal just because he went to therapy and reformed? While I won't hold every individual responsible for shit they didn't do (which is why, knowing more of your views I don't feel compelled to hate on you.) I utterly revile Christianity. May it be torn apart and destroyed just like it destroyed every other ideology it came in contact with.

 

I'm 40. I'm sorry if you feel this is a reaction only appropriate for a teenager. Being a member of the dominant religion, however freely you color outside the lines, affords you a luxury the rest of us don't have when it comes to just fluffing off the many crimes of the faith.

 

Not really sure why you can so flippantly brush off all the damage Christianity has done in this world both in the past and even in the present. Not sure why all the millions of children who have been brainwashed and terrorized with fears of hell and the rapture is something you "don't get" the ire over. Like seriously WTF? This right here is my problem with Christianity. And this is part of why it's pretty difficult for me to just hold hands and sing with the "nice christians" because there seems to be no real awareness of just what a shitfactory your religion has been. And I'm not saying you should feel personally responsible for any of it. It's not your fault. But you could at least have the good grace to understand why everybody in the world isn't super excited about Christianity's continued existence.

 

Christianity only gets nicer the less power it has to control and hurt people. So that's not a good sign for me.

 

And you'll note I DID say "you do you, whatever". I mean I might as well have used those words. But just because I'm giving YOU a pass doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to be like yippy skippy christianity! whee! Fuck Christianity.

 

 

lol, laughing at your last line.....   I think many points you made are certainly valid.  I think the primary reason most of us want others to move towards whatever we believe is "our truth" is what we think is best for others....i.e. if it brought me happiness, blah blah, then surely it will you too.  I don't think that this means that anyone necessarily has ill will for YOUR beliefs/space, but rather they don't have that broad of understanding. 

 

We have churches that never move past fundamentalism.... so yeah.  I don't regularly attend anymore because when I go back they just shake their collective heads at my views now.

 

I will be glad to discuss as much or as little as you like.  Please take that without you thinking in the back of your mind I am trying to pull you into Christianity.  I stated my reasons before...so.  But my impression is you are on like a scale of 9+ out of ten on ramped up.  Granted that's just my opinion and you are welcome to stay in that state if it feels good to you.  But, I'm offering if you would like to discuss or vent or yell at me...not a biggie.  I do yell back though on occasion...it's all good.  I typically come in here to poke the residents when I get under my own stress or get triggered.  They have been most gracious over the years to allow me to remain and work my path...

 

[Guest end3]

5 minutes ago, VerbosityCat said:

Also, you seem to have trouble with the idea that I can like/respect a person but have nothing but contempt for the overall religion they practice. If Christians can "hate the sin but love the sinner" why is it so difficult to understand I can like the Christian but want to cunt punt the Christianity?

 

Again, doesn't mean I'm going to lump you in with the worst of Christians/Christianity. While I don't see the appeal in even the nicest version of this religion I feel very differently toward NICE people who hold moderate non-insane, non-fundie Christian views. My brother is very much like you in his views. I love my brother. We can have mutually respectful spiritual discussions. But I mean, I don't really know why it's so hard to understand my hatred for Christianity. Or that it is a "general purpose hatred" aimed at specific things both past and present and if you are not doing those things, you are not part of the problem.

 

I don't see you personally as part of the problem, but if Christianity as a faith system died tomorrow, I would dance on its grave.

Because I don't think there is separation between what a person believes and who that person is at that time.  Granted there is a END3 that is a jackass and is mean as hell and has bad thoughts, but there is also a me that is a pretty good dude.  I can't attribute the better me to some other beliefs if that makes sense....maybe a pantheistic ideology,  but more Christian based.

[VerbosityCat]

8 minutes ago, end3 said:

lol, laughing at your last line.....   I think many points you made are certainly valid.  I think the primary reason most of us want others to move towards whatever we believe is "our truth" is what we think is best for others....i.e. if it brought me happiness, blah blah, then surely it will you too.  I don't think that this means that anyone necessarily has ill will for YOUR beliefs/space, but rather they don't have that broad of understanding. 

 

We have churches that never move past fundamentalism.... so yeah.  I don't regularly attend anymore because when I go back they just shake their collective heads at my views now.

 

I will be glad to discuss as much or as little as you like.  Please take that without you thinking in the back of your mind I am trying to pull you into Christianity.  I stated my reasons before...so.  But my impression is you are on like a scale of 9+ out of ten on ramped up.  Granted that's just my opinion and you are welcome to stay in that state if it feels good to you.  But, I'm offering if you would like to discuss or vent or yell at me...not a biggie.  I do yell back though on occasion...it's all good.  I typically come in here to poke the residents when I get under my own stress or get triggered.  They have been most gracious over the years to allow me to remain and work my path...

 

 

I think that's a pretty broad assumption. While I would like it if my family (as in the people immediately blood related to me) had a sense of the old gods/ancestral customs and appreciation for it because it would create greater social familial cohesion, in general I don't actually think "my truth" is best for others. It's only best for me. The problem comes in when people will not let me be. And the issue is not so much that they think I would be happier with their faith. It's that they think I will be eternally tortured if I don't follow it. So they are acting not from joy that they have some super awesome great truth but out of fear.

 

In fact, I have a hard time believing my family even REALLY likes their religion or their god. I think they are scared of him. And scared to displease him. And scared to fuck up or think or believe the wrong thing and go to hell. But they will NEVER openly admit this. They don't LIKE biblegod. They might like Jesus, but they don't like their god. If they believed they could walk away tomorrow without going to full on atheism (because that I think also holds them in), and NOT go to hell, I think most of them would. Though they would NEVER admit it, even to themselves because they know that offer is not on the table.

 

And yet I walked out. Yes, it's hard. But I did it. And if I can climb over that wall it's just hard for me to understand why they can't. If they were truly happy with their religion and were not following it out of fear and were not trying to convert me, that would be a whole other thing.

 

And yes, the fundies DO have ill will toward my beliefs because they think my beliefs are "the devil tricking me".

 

Have you looked into the episcopalian church? They seem to have split off into a fundie faction and a super liberal faction but the latter is VERY nice. They also have a lot of beautiful churches, and if you are into the ritual aspect, some of them basically do the "high mass" like the catholics but without all the crazy. You might like it. You might definitely feel more at home among those people.

 

I'm always sending Christians who can't find a church not full of hypocrites to the episcopalians lol.

 

Yeah sometimes I am a 9 on anger. I don't really want to be like that. I don't want to stay angry. A lot of my anger is more a "flare up" like I'm not constantly at this REEEEE level. This is largely due to going through a rough time and having my mom try to suck me back in again a few weeks ago. But I don't constantly live in this space. Most of the time it's just frustrating as hell.

 

I know this sounds like a lot of woo but I really don't feel like I'm in the right time. Like I feel like I was born into the wrong time, or if reincarnation is a thing (which is definitely an idea i am more open to than most), then maybe the last time I was here was much farther up the timeline because I can't even explain to you how fucking FOREIGN Christianity felt to me, even as a kid. When I found MY stories/myths, I finally felt like... these are mine. I get this. I get these people. I wish these people were still here and that we still had what they had. I hate that it was ripped away and now what's left is this... foreign THING.

[VerbosityCat]

14 minutes ago, end3 said:

Because I don't think there is separation between what a person believes and who that person is at that time.  Granted there is a END3 that is a jackass and is mean as hell and has bad thoughts, but there is also a me that is a pretty good dude.  I can't attribute the better me to some other beliefs if that makes sense....maybe a pantheistic ideology,  but more Christian based.

 

Yeah I get that. I can be quite the jackass also. And pretty mean. I don't like that side of myself except in the moment. But when I say I hate Christianity, I'm talking about a monolith and I'm also speaking in generalities. I'm talking about certain things both past and present. And if you aren't a part of that you aren't what I'm talking about. The problem is... what I'm talking about is a very specific thing. I have a very specific definition of Christianity that I'm reacting to/against. You don't really ping my "Christian radar". I don't see you as "part of that thing I'm hating on", no more than I see my brother as part of it.

 

And look, I LOVE my mother. But she is batshit crazy and she is part of the fundie problem. But I still love her. Even though i HATE her belief system. Because I DON'T think beliefs are the sum total of who a person is.

[VerbosityCat]

and now I'm going to log out for the night because I've been online way too long. The blocker I have has an upgrade feature where you get to set break times. This way I can set it where I just get an hour of internet time. I HATE wasting hours of my life at a time on the internet. Like i've been online for 2 and a half hours now and ugh. also it's way too late to be on the computer but meh.

[Guest end3]

6 minutes ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

I think that's a pretty broad assumption. While I would like it if my family (as in the people immediately blood related to me) had a sense of the old gods/ancestral customs and appreciation for it because it would create greater social familial cohesion, in general I don't actually think "my truth" is best for others. It's only best for me. The problem comes in when people will not let me be. And the issue is not so much that they think I would be happier with their faith. It's that they think I will be eternally tortured if I don't follow it. So they are acting not from joy that they have some super awesome great truth but out of fear.

 

In fact, I have a hard time believing my family even REALLY likes their religion or their god. I think they are scared of him. And scared to displease him. And scared to fuck up or think or believe the wrong thing and go to hell. But they will NEVER openly admit this. They don't LIKE biblegod. They might like Jesus, but they don't like their god. If they believed they could walk away tomorrow without going to full on atheism (because that I think also holds them in), and NOT go to hell, I think most of them would. Though they would NEVER admit it, even to themselves because they know that offer is not on the table.

 

And yet I walked out. Yes, it's hard. But I did it. And if I can climb over that wall it's just hard for me to understand why they can't. If they were truly happy with their religion and were not following it out of fear and were not trying to convert me, that would be a whole other thing.

 

And yes, the fundies DO have ill will toward my beliefs because they think my beliefs are "the devil tricking me".

 

Have you looked into the episcopalian church? They seem to have split off into a fundie faction and a super liberal faction but the latter is VERY nice. They also have a lot of beautiful churches, and if you are into the ritual aspect, some of them basically do the "high mass" like the catholics but without all the crazy. You might like it. You might definitely feel more at home among those people.

 

I'm always sending Christians who can't find a church not full of hypocrites to the episcopalians lol.

 

Yeah sometimes I am a 9 on anger. I don't really want to be like that. I don't want to stay angry. A lot of my anger is more a "flare up" like I'm not constantly at this REEEEE level. This is largely due to going through a rough time and having my mom try to suck me back in again a few weeks ago. But I don't constantly live in this space. Most of the time it's just frustrating as hell.

 

I know this sounds like a lot of woo but I really don't feel like I'm in the right time. Like I feel like I was born into the wrong time, or if reincarnation is a thing (which is definitely an idea i am more open to than most), then maybe the last time I was here was much farther up the timeline because I can't even explain to you how fucking FOREIGN Christianity felt to me, even as a kid. When I found MY stories/myths, I finally felt like... these are mine. I get this. I get these people. I wish these people were still here and that we still had what they had. I hate that it was ripped away and now what's left is this... foreign THING.

My sister moved here from west Texas to a different state because she said she knew at a very young age that the culture and beliefs were not her.  I don't know if it had to do with how my father treated her or something innate.  These answers are above my pay scale.  Long story short though....she moved to find peace.  She and I are very similar to you and your brother in that we have different views and are careful in our discussions but ultimately love each other and want the best. 

 

Episcopals here in my shining city typically have big bucks.....yes, I haven't tried, but yes, I don't have big bucks either....lol.  But thank you for the suggestion. 

 

Need to run C.....will catch up tomorrow if you're bored. 

[TruthSeeker0]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

The one thing that intrigues me is why are you still uptight about Christianity to the level that you seem to be.  I'm not trying to be critical, and don't know your age, but it seems like all of us at some point say ah, whatever, you do you....and go on.  Have I missed something....were you traumatized in some manner to the point of ptsd?  

End, you've been here for years, surely even you have some idea what Christianity can do to people. If not, read this. This is not a minor problem. RTS is a real thing.

 

 

[VerbosityCat]

21 hours ago, end3 said:

My sister moved here from west Texas to a different state because she said she knew at a very young age that the culture and beliefs were not her.  I don't know if it had to do with how my father treated her or something innate.  These answers are above my pay scale.  Long story short though....she moved to find peace.  She and I are very similar to you and your brother in that we have different views and are careful in our discussions but ultimately love each other and want the best. 

 

Episcopals here in my shining city typically have big bucks.....yes, I haven't tried, but yes, I don't have big bucks either....lol.  But thank you for the suggestion. 

 

Need to run C.....will catch up tomorrow if you're bored. 

 

Episcopalians often do have a lot of money, yes, but my experience with them at least the ones in my area is that they make a real effort to welcome those of all socio-economic backgrounds. For whatever reason more people with money have been drawn to this denomination than most.

 

Me and my brother don't have to be careful talking about religion. I can talk openly with him and him with me. He's not one of the fundies in my family.

 

Also, I'm going to end this conversation with you. You constantly "have to run". I'm on an EXTREMELY abbreviated Internet time, which means basically I have to get in and get out and I still have the courtesy and take the time to reply to people who are in conversations with me and address the things they are saying. you do not. You just gloss over everything with no intention of engaging in an honest or in depth discussion. So, I'm done with this. You're not interested in a conversation and you ignore 90% of what I say. It's too frustrating to talk to someone like that.

 

Also, I agree with truthseeker that I don't really buy your 'awww shucks why are you people so angry' schtick.

[VerbosityCat]

20 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

End, you've been here for years, surely even you have some idea what Christianity can do to people. If not, read this. This is not a minor problem. RTS is a real thing.

 

 

 

Fucking thank you! I'm so tired of the complete callous indifference and looking the other way and whistling and just totally ignoring any pain or suffering this dumbass religion has caused people.

 

I can appreciate if he follows some super liberal hippie version of Christianity, that's great, but he has to know he's coloring outside the lines. He has the cover of "being a Christian" when he's around fundies to shield him from the bullshit those of us who have left have to deal with, all the while he can just do his own fingerpainting version of his religion. That's great and all, but it's total bullshit to pretend like this has ANYTHING at all to do with ANYTHING anybody here is talking about.

[florduh]

End3, dude, may I jump in?

 

Do you think that the various religions are different vehicles seeking the same goal? Indescribable things must be described by mythology and many myths carry the same spiritual message after all the window dressing is discarded. Perhaps Christianity, however you interpret it personally, is a way to conceptualize and codify a reality beyond our everyday perception. What sets Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions apart from Eastern thought is the fact that it's based on the organization and power structure of ancient kings and courts. It is very legalistic for that reason, but perhaps that is the easiest way for some people, due to their upbringing and society, to frame the ideas put forth regarding the "other realm." Or am I just crazy and making shit up...

[TruthSeeker0]

2 hours ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

Fucking thank you! I'm so tired of the complete callous indifference and looking the other way and whistling and just totally ignoring any pain or suffering this dumbass religion has caused people.

 

I know what you mean. If anyone wants to ask me when I'm going to "get over Christianity" or "get over my background" the answer is never. I'm not going to get over what these beliefs are doing to people, and the incredible amount of harm they cause.

[Guest end3]

14 hours ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

Episcopalians often do have a lot of money, yes, but my experience with them at least the ones in my area is that they make a real effort to welcome those of all socio-economic backgrounds. For whatever reason more people with money have been drawn to this denomination than most.

 

Me and my brother don't have to be careful talking about religion. I can talk openly with him and him with me. He's not one of the fundies in my family.

 

Also, I'm going to end this conversation with you. You constantly "have to run". I'm on an EXTREMELY abbreviated Internet time, which means basically I have to get in and get out and I still have the courtesy and take the time to reply to people who are in conversations with me and address the things they are saying. you do not. You just gloss over everything with no intention of engaging in an honest or in depth discussion. So, I'm done with this. You're not interested in a conversation and you ignore 90% of what I say. It's too frustrating to talk to someone like that.

 

Also, I agree with truthseeker that I don't really buy your 'awww shucks why are you people so angry' schtick.

Ok with me C.  I've listened to what you have had to say.  I have tried to understand what you dislike about Christianity.  I gave you my beliefs as honestly as possible.  You can ask the people that know me here whether they think I was being forthcoming or not.   I hesitate to get in an in depth discussion with you because one, I have discussed these things with people 47 times over the years....and two, if I rehashed my beliefs with you, I doubt it will even make a ding in your wall.  I guess with your level of angst for Christianity, you can possibly make it a lifelong effort....who knows.  Take care.

[Guest end3]

14 hours ago, florduh said:

End3, dude, may I jump in?

 

Do you think that the various religions are different vehicles seeking the same goal? Indescribable things must be described by mythology and many myths carry the same spiritual message after all the window dressing is discarded. Perhaps Christianity, however you interpret it personally, is a way to conceptualize and codify a reality beyond our everyday perception. What sets Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions apart from Eastern thought is the fact that it's based on the organization and power structure of ancient kings and courts. It is very legalistic for that reason, but perhaps that is the easiest way for some people, due to their upbringing and society, to frame the ideas put forth regarding the "other realm." Or am I just crazy and making shit up...

We will know when we get there....as good a guess as any.  thx for the input.

[Guest end3]

C,

The word I am looking for was intensity.  Your intensity or volume is so turned up, that I don't think you are able to consider other views anyhow.  Even when your intensity/volume comes down for a minute and someone says something that doesn't fit your liking, your intensity and volume go back up.  I'm no therapist, but I'm thinking that more a defense mechanism you employ for your safety. 

[TruthSeeker0]

@end3Did you read the article? If you did, do you understand any of the issues with Christianity and mental health? Can you understand the 'angst' as you put it, at all?

[Guest end3]

52 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

@end3Did you read the article? If you did, do you understand any of the issues with Christianity and mental health? Can you understand the 'angst' as you put it, at all?

Cursory glance TS.  I see some of the points, but we would also have to include Western culture as a contributor, imo, to the claims.  I never personally was controlled to such a level as the author seems to suggest.  Perhaps if I were in a more radical group, I would have been more something.  The end times stuff used to worry me some back in the day...but not a whole lot.

 

But given the population here and have read some of the testimonies, yes, I can see where religion can be harmful.

[VerbosityCat]

9 hours ago, end3 said:

Ok with me C.  I've listened to what you have had to say.  I have tried to understand what you dislike about Christianity.  I gave you my beliefs as honestly as possible.  You can ask the people that know me here whether they think I was being forthcoming or not.   I hesitate to get in an in depth discussion with you because one, I have discussed these things with people 47 times over the years....and two, if I rehashed my beliefs with you, I doubt it will even make a ding in your wall.  I guess with your level of angst for Christianity, you can possibly make it a lifelong effort....who knows.  Take care.

 

What kind of ding are you looking to make? What does that even mean? I mean I'm never coming back. So if that's the goal when you engage in a discussion, you really are better off leaving it. Also yes you've listened but you haven't addressed anything, or asked any questions about me or what my current views are. I mean do you understand how interfaith discussions work? They are supposed to be about understanding where people are coming from. The totality of me is not what I am not. I don't really get why in an interfaith dialogue, your faith was the only one that was discussed. But meh, I don't care. I'm not mad at you. I just really don't like your communication style. It's frustrating and annoying because it doesn't feel like you really care to get to know other people who differ from you without an agenda underneath it.

 

And the absolute refusal to really address any actual points I make Like you go... I don't understand why you're so angry. I lay it out for you. ANd you sort of gloss it over with you guess you can understand some of my points. That's not really a discussion. But I don't have time to teach you how to have an interfaith dialogue. I don't hate you, I don't even really dislike you personally. I'm not going to avoid or ignore you, but I'm not going out of my way to communicate in any meaningful way with you either because you've already shown me that is WAY more effort than I want to put in, when you won't match that effort on your side.