end3

Should We Expect a Higher Consciousness

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

Why can't there be oneness without everyone being identical? The human body is one but there is a hand, a foot, an eye, etc. so the one consists of many aspects each with a different function.

Seems St. Paul said something similar.  Perhaps End3 should spend more time in the bible.

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Seems St. Paul said something similar.  Perhaps End3 should spend more time in the bible.

Oh it's the same old stuff...grace and relationships.  Love, patience, peace, ....all that crap.

 

But yeah, that's the way Florduh, that the Bible suggests the mechanism for becoming One.

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11 hours ago, end3 said:

I'm liking you more all the time...  Without me understanding the nuances of agnostic vs. atheist.....most people here, imo, don't believe because the science doesn't support.  Only when pressed do the have the bravery/gonads to say "we don't know" vs. "yeah, there is no god".  Prof's statement a few posts back is about as forthcoming as I have heard him ever. 

 

Edit:  They know there is no god.....which is very frustrating for me because most hold science as their shield of armor....when admittedly science is an ongoing "we don't know".  Not sure how they mix the two, but they damn sure do. 

 

I don't think it's a matter of bravery.  It's a matter of when you say "I don't know", most Christians hear NOT "I don't know and you don't know either, we CAN'T know", most Christians hear: "I don't really know what I believe yet so there is some chance you could still convert me." This just gives Christians hope and then they start going on and on endlessly about the baby Jesus. Those who have left Christianity left it for a reason. Most of us it was a very  long and difficult process some of the after effects we are still dealing with even decades later. We do not want to "come back to Jesus". We don't believe in Jesus. Those who say there is no god instead of the more honest "I don't know", are most likely saying that shit mainly to not encourage Christians.


I really don't think Christians realize just how fucking annoying they are about this issue. If you really want to "save the lost" go to a third world country where they haven't heard of Jesus. Better yet, don't. It'll destroy their indigenous culture and then they won't know who the hell they are or where the hell they come from. I should have been raised on the myths of my ancestors not some stupid irrelevant desert myths.

 

I'm sure I can find you likable as a person, but your religion fucking sucks. And just because I'm spiritual and have "gods", doesn't mean that makes me ripe for coming back to the baby Jesus either.

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11 hours ago, end3 said:

Well let's look.  Was driving down a Texas farm to market road....that cuts though pastures and connects people to town.  Then I was thinking about how things that bring us together have progressed more towards bringing us together more efficiently and more quickly.  From horses, vehicles, planes, from telephone, radio, TV,  to overnight shipping and almost instantaneous communication.  In other words, we WANT to be ONE, but we are still plagued with the inability to become one.  We still have differences and perspectives that hinder.  We can see the differences and inabilities every day in politics.....those who wish a global love vs. those who are still holding back because it's not working as easily as they would like.  ....old cultures, different cultures, etc. 

 

The point being....everything points to Oneness imo, yet we can't seem to make it happen.....even though we would all like it TO happen......Heaven.

 

Our actions, our need for affirmation, point towards.  We could argue that money drives these things, but we would be doing them regardless.

 

You heathens know I'm right...

 

Edit: Just noticed there used to be two towers, now one.  It's all over the place.

 

Okay. Let's unpack this. First... the idea that everything is interconnected and in some sense one, does NOT mean it would be preferable for everything to be merged back together into one thing. Then we are starting back all over again at the very beginning. Oneness is not, IMO, some ideal. Common respect for differences I can get behind, but I WANT those differences. I want different ethnicities and cultures and mythologies and ways of being in the world, including those who aren't religious or spiritual at all. There is extreme value in having the pragmatic person off to the side telling us all we're full of woo. It grounds us back in reality if we'll listen.

 

I'm okay with anybody who wants to play in this sandbox on equitable terms. So if the Abrahamic monotheisms want to get off their "one true god" kick and realize biblegod is just the Jewish tribal god from the desert, then that's fine. But monotheism is the worst thing that happened to humanity IMO. It has caused all manner of destruction of cultures, identities, freedoms.It is not some inherent "good."

 

I do not at all care for universalist religions like Christianity because it tries to force all people to be the same. We are not the same. I'm not in favor of "monoculture" I don't want us to all be some giant consumerist culture or to all follow one god. Or to all follow gods or believe in them at all. I want the variety. I see beauty and value in all the various cultures of the world, but certain religious ideologies have come along and crushed those things. Christianity did a compete wrecking ball job on the culture of my ancestors and I am not a happy camper about that. When you take an ideology totally foreign to a people and superimpose it on top of that people you destroy a great deal of that people's identity. And whatever flaws you may think another culture has, it is their flaws to work out in their own way and their own time. It isn't up to somebody else to destroy their identity. It would have been better to just kill us all than to enslave us to this stupid desert death cult.

 

Question: Do you believe in Hell? If not, what on EARTH appeals to you about this religion? And if you do, do you realize you aren't truly free? If you can't leave someone without punishment, let alone torture, they don't love you.

 

As for "you heathens", actually Heathen is probably the closest word you could use to describe me if I were going to take on a religious label.

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7 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I suppose for people who need to obsessively over-define terms in a futile attempt at enhanced clarification, it might seem that I am conflating some sub-category of agnosticism for some other sub-classification of atheist.  Personally, I prefer a more simplistic approach.  I don't know, so I am an agnostic.  I don't care, so I am an apatheist.  I don't believe, so I am an atheist.  Sometimes i can be "militant" about it; other times i can lack gonads.  I'm comfortable with that, because such dichotmies are part of the human condition, especially for those of us who think independently.  Beyond that, others can use whatever terms they want to define me, if they feel that doing so will validate their own beliefs, or lack thereof.

 

even in my obsessively over-definition needs... I can get behind all this. :P

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37 minutes ago, end3 said:

Oh it's the same old stuff...grace and relationships.  Love, patience, peace, ....all that crap.

 

But yeah, that's the way Florduh, that the Bible suggests the mechanism for becoming One.

 

I would suggest that the bible has no moral authority from which to pontificate to the rest of us about love. When your god stops being a "jealous god" and when we stop pretending like wiping out whole peoples for not believing the same way you do was part of god's "infinite wisdom" (the supposedly allpowerful dickhead doesn't even have the balls to do it himself  half the time. No, he wants the blood on the hands of his people so everybody is bonded together in a unified evil.)

 

Now if the bible were telling us to be nasty intolerant shitheads destroying everything in it's path that isn't related somehow to biblegod, hey, I believe it has the authority to do that. Given the track record.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, end3 said:

Oh it's the same old stuff...grace and relationships.  Love, patience, peace, ....all that crap.

 

But yeah, that's the way Florduh, that the Bible suggests the mechanism for becoming One.

 

Also, the fundamental problem I have with all this is you seem to have the idea that we are all going to "become one" through "Jesus" and YOUR particular belief system. It's this arrogance. And you don't even see it as arrogant. But it is. Believe me, thinking you have the one true truth and somehow every other independent soul/being on this planet is going to just fall in line behind your bullshit is just... wow.

 

This is why monotheism is fucking awful. I don't run around saying you have to answer to Odin. Because my myths are for ME. Your myths are for YOU. But your myths have nothing to do with me. They have no power over me. And part of the problem here is that you don't recognize your myths are myths. You think they are real literal things that apply to all peoples in all times. (and if I'm wrong on that, if you don't actually think that, then why on earth are you bothering to align yourself with one of the most evil intolerant religious systems to ever hit planet earth?)

 

Even if you take your myths as myths... metaphorical truths... you still somehow think your myths are "about everybody" and "apply somehow to everybody". And that's simply not the case.

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37 minutes ago, end3 said:

But yeah, that's the way Florduh, that the Bible suggests the mechanism for becoming One.

Why do you assume we are not already one?  Perhaps if we all realized that we are already one then they couldn't sell any Bibles.

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20 minutes ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

 And just because I'm spiritual and have "gods", doesn't mean that makes me ripe for coming back to the baby Jesus either.

Ma'am I could really care less what condition you're in.....it's your process, your perspective.  However, if there is such a thing as Heaven, a glorious existence with no negatives, I hope we all make it there.  Now go back to your indigenous culture...

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12 minutes ago, end3 said:

Ma'am I could really care less what condition you're in.....it's your process, your perspective.  However, if there is such a thing as Heaven, a glorious existence with no negatives, I hope we all make it there.  Now go back to your indigenous culture...

 

And it sheds it's skin and shows us the snake underneath. Why are you even here on this board? You're not an ex-Christian. do you feel cool hanging out with the godless heretics? Do you think you're going to convert some people to your way? Do you think we'll all find some common bond and hug it out?

 

Also, love how fast the "liking me" went away when you learned I wasn't going to be a cheerleader for your side or an "ally" of biblegod. Note also that before THIS point, I said I could like YOU as a person just fine, but your religion is what sucks. Guess we can ditch that his and hers bath towel order now.

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17 minutes ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

And it sheds it's skin and shows us the snake underneath. Why are you even here on this board? You're not an ex-Christian. do you feel cool hanging out with the godless heretics? Do you think you're going to convert some people to your way? Do you think we'll all find some common bond and hug it out?

 

Also, love how fast the "liking me" went away when you learned I wasn't going to be a cheerleader for your side or an "ally" of biblegod. Note also that before THIS point, I said I could like YOU as a person just fine, but your religion is what sucks. Guess we can ditch that his and hers bath towel order now.

Ma'am your the one preaching my views suck....remember?  How are my views independent of my person?  Scientifically??????  Remember, we said scientifically "we don't know".  Essentially you are saying that I suck for my ancestry, my culture, my person.  You have no idea why I'm here, no clue who I am, no clue of my past, no clue of my present, yet you are wonderfully quick to place me in your compartment of judgment.  I'll take the his towel please. 

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21 minutes ago, end3 said:

Ma'am your the one preaching my views suck....remember?  How are my views independent of my person?  Scientifically??????  Remember, we said scientifically "we don't know".  Essentially you are saying that I suck for my ancestry, my culture, my person.  You have no idea why I'm here, no clue who I am, no clue of my past, no clue of my present, yet you are wonderfully quick to place me in your compartment of judgment.  I'll take the his towel please. 

 

I said CHRISTIANITY sucks. That's what I meant with "your religion" your icon says you are a "christian believer" and you list Yeshua as your god of choice. That's Christianity. Now maybe you have some totally different interpretation from everything. Maybe you are a "nice" Christian. But again, given what Christianity has traditionally and historically been and how you have to twist and warp the entire bible in order to come away with an interpretation of it that isn't "I'm right and everybody else is wrong" then why do you want to align yourself with that?

 

It seems to me that most "nice Christians" who have a new and fluffy version of their religion are just actively looking for conflict and misunderstanding with others. You KNOW how people are going to react to the Christian label and you use it anyway. (then you can claim your hands are clean and you are nice others just attacked you, but you fucking know your very presences "triggers" the shit out of people. And if you don't know that... you've been on this site 11 years... figure it out!)  It is for some reason important to you to hang out on a board of Ex-Christians, making sure everybody knows you are a Jesus follower, you're one of the "good Christians". Are we supposed to be grateful about that?

 

If you have some genuine desire to hang out with ex-christians as an equal human being instead of someone with the "superior ideology", then perhaps you should have come here incognito and just been a person about things. Because the truth is... nobody is going to trust you here (and I don't care how long you've been here posting). We all know "nice Christians". It's a manipulation tactic. If you aren't like that, great, but everybody's got their radar up. Nobody is going to let you in too close because you could flip like a switch if you suddenly think you have some toehold to "enlighten people".

 

What I see when I see a Christian here, no matter how nice, a Christian who isn't someone who is questioning their faith and not listing themselves as a Christian but a Christian who is openly so is a person who refuses to allow ex-christians to have any space in the world where we don't have to interact with a Christian. And I don't think you have ANY idea how fucking obnoxious that is.

 

Is your ancestry Jewish? Because if it isn't, your PAGAN ancestors were forcibly converted and now you have the Jesus Stockholm Syndrome. And if you are going to say your ancestors "willingly converted" I highly doubt that and suggest you should read a bit more history about how this really came about. Maybe SOME of your ancestors did willingly convert. And hey, bully for them, but I don't think you have any idea just HOW MANY ancestors you have going back that far. The bulk of them, it would be safe to say were at least coerced and at worst tortured. But hey... keep following the LOVING religion of Christianity that desecrated your people and your history until you have so much stockholm syndrome you don't even realize your people didn't come from the desert.

 

Christianity was never really any religion that was authentically arising out of a people. It was for jews but most jews rejected it because it was anti-thetical to all their teachings and beliefs up to that point. (And also, point for Jews, they aren't trying to convert us all). When Christianity failed with its original intended audience, it spread out wider to try to attract others. First peacefully, then once Constantine saw political expediency in it, violently. So it's not really "natural" for anybody's ancestors.

 

Your views and my views are both independent of our person because views are just IDEAS. What I THINK about reality is not ME. If you can't extricate your personhood from your theories about life and reality, that's a problem all on its own.

 

As for judgement... there is no moral obligation put on me to not judge people's behavior and ideologies. Sorry but I think Christianity sucks. I will always think it sucks. I like plenty of Christian people in spite of their Christianity but they are family and close friends who have earned me "looking past" their religious ideology. I believe Christians have a phrase called: Love the sinner and hate the sin. How about I... tolerate the Christian and beat the shit out of the Christianity? Sound fair?

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Also, don't call me ma'am. I am not your waitress. you can call me Cat if you feel so compelled to address me.

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2 minutes ago, VerbosityCat said:

Also, don't call me ma'am. I am not your waitress. you can call me Cat if you feel so compelled to address me.

Yes ma'am! Point taken!!! 😈

 

(Sorry end, that just struck me as funny. Feel free to call me ma'am as long as you leave a good tip.)

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58 minutes ago, end3 said:

Ma'am I could really care less what condition you're in.....it's your process, your perspective.  However, if there is such a thing as Heaven, a glorious existence with no negatives, I hope we all make it there.  Now go back to your indigenous culture...

Umm... eternity with the god of the bible is a pretty big negative.  Eternity with christians is another.  Far from glorious, I'd say heaven is bigly horrific.

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11 minutes ago, florduh said:

Yes ma'am! Point taken!!! 😈

 

(Sorry end, that just struck me as funny. Feel free to call me ma'am as long as you leave a good tip.)

 

Well, if he tips me, I'll tolerate it.

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1 hour ago, end3 said:

Oh it's the same old stuff...grace and relationships.  Love, patience, peace, ....all that crap.

 

But yeah, that's the way Florduh, that the Bible suggests the mechanism for becoming One.

A mechanism that automatically discludes those who don't conform... hardly a recipe for grace, relationships, love, patience, peace, or any other crap.  Which is maybe why even jesus warned of wars, rumors of wars, bringing a sword instead of peace, all while the other side of his forked tongue was commanding us to love one another.   If love has to be commanded, it's not real love.

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37 minutes ago, end3 said:

Ma'am your the one preaching my views suck....remember?  How are my views independent of my person?  Scientifically??????  Remember, we said scientifically "we don't know".  Essentially you are saying that I suck for my ancestry, my culture, my person.  You have no idea why I'm here, no clue who I am, no clue of my past, no clue of my present, yet you are wonderfully quick to place me in your compartment of judgment.  I'll take the his towel please. 

Everybody sucks, End3; but it takes a special kind of grace and relationship to swallow. 

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38 minutes ago, end3 said:

Ma'am your the one preaching my views suck....remember?  How are my views independent of my person?  Scientifically??????  Remember, we said scientifically "we don't know".  Essentially you are saying that I suck for my ancestry, my culture, my person.  You have no idea why I'm here, no clue who I am, no clue of my past, no clue of my present, yet you are wonderfully quick to place me in your compartment of judgment.  I'll take the his towel please. 

 

And I know that was a big wall of text, how could I possibly have more to say? But such are the powers of verbositycat. Being someone who does retain some spiritual views/practices/whatever, it is perfectly understandable to me that some people on this board may react to me as I do to you because they might want a space with NO spirituality whatsoever. So I get that not everybody is going to like that about me. and that is OKAY. We don't all have to be BFF, sing kumbaya and hug it out.

 

The difference in a nice christian and someone of some other non-proselytizing spirituality is... nobody has to worry that I think my views are "the best" or that I want to convert them to some spiritual view. I don't care what people believe or don't believe, nor do I think anything 'bad" will happen to them if they do or don't believe whatever. I think we're all probably embarrassingly wrong about most everything. I don't know who is "more right" on the scale of absurd wrongness and I don't really care.

 

My issue with Christianity is the way it just spreads like a fucking fungus and people can never be allowed to be fully FREE of it. Because there is always someone trying to suck you back in like crabs in a bucket. Maybe you aren't like that... but you CAN'T possibly be so thick after 11 years on this board that you don't understand that most of us see a "nice Christian" and understand you're just playing the "good cop" in your religion. Again if you're different and DON'T think your religion is superior, the "real truth", etc. and DON'T want to convert anybody back to Christianity, fine, but that's really not going to be the ex-christian default position when dealing with you or any other "nice Christian".

 

You know you're on a site meant for people who want nothing to do with your religion. It says so in the name, and yet you're here. Sure, you have the right to be here. And the Lion's Den is a space you're specifically welcome, but have you considered in the lion's den that perhaps we are the lions, and you are dinner?

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1 minute ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

Your views and my views are both independent of our person because views are just IDEAS. What I THINK about reality is not ME. If you can't extricate your personhood from your theories about life and reality, that's a problem all on its own.

 

As for judgement... there is no moral obligation put on me to not judge people's behavior and ideologies. Sorry but I think Christianity sucks. I will always think it sucks. I like plenty of Christian people in spite of their Christianity but they are family and close friends who have earned me "looking past" their religious ideology. I believe Christians have a phrase called: Love the sinner and hate the sin. How about I... tolerate the Christian and beat the shit out of the Christianity? Sound fair?

 This is a long conversation I will have to endeavor in shortly.  As much as I appreciate your enthusiasm, I'm needing to concentrate on my job duties today.  I would though ask you to please explain to me how we are "me" outside of "ideas" and how we adequately separate these where we might discern between the two.  And what please ma'am are your criteria for earning your non-judgmental graces....oops, let's don't use that word grace.....your "me", he's ok, box so I can ponder our relationship.  Thanks...lol. 

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19 minutes ago, VerbosityCat said:

Also, don't call me ma'am. I am not your waitress. you can call me Cat if you feel so compelled to address me.

Ma'am is my culture.  We address women as ma'am out of respect.  Per your ideologies, I'm not obligated for you to control how I address you.  Thanks.

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15 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Umm... eternity with the god of the bible is a pretty big negative.  Eternity with christians is another.  Far from glorious, I'd say heaven is bigly horrific.

 

I love that you said bigly hahahahahahaha. I was kind of hoping the afterlife was the one place I wouldn't have to hear anymore about Jesus.

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10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Everybody sucks, End3; but it takes a special kind of grace and relationship to swallow. 

 

I ran out of haha's so HA!

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9 minutes ago, end3 said:

 This is a long conversation I will have to endeavor in shortly.  As much as I appreciate your enthusiasm, I'm needing to concentrate on my job duties today.  I would though ask you to please explain to me how we are "me" outside of "ideas" and how we adequately separate these where we might discern between the two.  And what please ma'am are your criteria for earning your non-judgmental graces....oops, let's don't use that word grace.....your "me", he's ok, box so I can ponder our relationship.  Thanks...lol. 

 

First rule. Respect people's boundaries and when they tell you to stop calling them Ma'am. When you can manage that one, we can discuss further.

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10 minutes ago, end3 said:

Ma'am is my culture.  We address women as ma'am out of respect.  Per your ideologies, I'm not obligated for you to control how I address you.  Thanks.

 

Then our conversation has ended. Any further posts directed at me that insist upon calling me "Ma'am", will be ignored. (and once again "your culture" is being imposed upon me. Whether it's Christianity or your asinine insistence on referring to me as Ma'am. And let's not kid ourselves. You don't respect me. if you just "respect women in general", that's not respect, it's patronization. I want to earn respect. If someone respects me it should be for reasons other than my genitalia.)

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