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Christians blaming gays


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41 minutes ago, end3 said:

Look, my explanation was very open and provided a perspective that might help the people here....not harm.  Do with it what you would like. 

 

If your explanation had included any "christian" terminology or ideology,  it would have been deleted.  Christians are not  generally allowed to post in this subforum.  We get way too many True ChristiansTM  who try to sneak into Rants giving "helpful advice" at a website that was created for supporting deconverting and ex-christians.    So all I'm saying is if you want the grace of continued posting in Rants, be sure to keep christianity out of responses you make.    Thanks.   

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I was able to have a nice conversation with my grandma today about how I felt growing up as a closeted gay man amongst religious Christians. There has been this massive fire here in Southern Californi

Please explain how my law abiding daughter, her wife, or any other law abiding LGBT citizen harms you, or anyone else, in any way?   Answer: They harm no one.  If they harm no one, nothing t

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1 hour ago, end3 said:

Yes, I personally think than young man is being harmed by not having a male role model.

 

Most of us don't care if you want to think that. What cranks us is when you and your friends express those thoughts to folks who don't want to hear them, or worse, try to force your beliefs upon us through social pressure or, even worse, legislation. No one is trying to force a gay lifestyle upon you so please don't try to force your lifestyle upon others.

 

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18 minutes ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

 

Um, Reality Check is not me.  Dont think RC mentioned a daughter.

 

And, yes, when it comes to my daughter I am quite defensive.  I stand up for reality and facts regarding her because she, and her LGBT community cause zero harm to anyone else.  But groups, and their followers, 97% of them religious insist on making them "less than".  I am sick of it.  All of it.  My daughter is NOT "an abomination".  She is not evil. She, and her wife are loving, caring and accomplished.  Her PhD in Cellular and Molecular Biology, neuroscience emphasis, was formally conferred just 4 days ago.  Her wife is a medical school student and future MD.  They volunteer and contribute back to the community.  They are far far far from "less than".  Yet, my daughter lost a job in Indiana due her LGBT status.  I have seen people "go ballistic" when they are simply holding hands.  Folks judge them only in what their church tells them.  They never seek out LGBT folks to get to know them.  They dont seek out their parents....often they avoid them.

 

All of this effort against folks with near term zero impact on the lives of others is sickening.  The bottom line for these folks is that their delusional religion is more important than basic respect for these two, and those like them.  Keep your delusions.  Just dont impose them on others outside of your "faith".  Dont make laws and rules imposing your club rules onto others.  Dont impose "less than" on anyone without overwhelming evidence.

I'm a father CTS.  I'm sure it's difficult. You seem like a good person and I'm sure you daughter is an excellent person as well.  You're right....not many people take the time to know other people and situations.  I can see how if we did, the world might be a different/better place.  The biggest thing I think I can share that might potentially help is Christian fundamentalism is very rigid.  For example, until I spend a good bit of time in Christianity, the first perspective is "I'm broken" and "this is the procedure or beliefs for me to become unbroken".  So then they do church.....holy being 3 hymns, 2 prayers, a sermon, and these beliefs.....where homosexuality is one of the big sins.

 

Which if you think about it...if a person starts feeling better, more social stuff, more love, then that affirms that their recipe for belief is correct.  Then the person walks around saying unless you do these things, believe these things, than you are not doing it right.  I think this goes away after years after the concept of Grace sets in, but grace is not an easy concept to grasp if memory serves.

 

Proud of you for supporting your daughter.  Take care. 

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18 minutes ago, older said:

 

Most of us don't care if you want to think that. What cranks us is when you and your friends express those thoughts to folks who don't want to hear them, or worse, try to force your beliefs upon us through social pressure or, even worse, legislation. No one is trying to force a gay lifestyle upon you so please don't try to force your lifestyle upon others.

 

Horse shit...show me how I'm forcing anything, anywhere.

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35 minutes ago, end3 said:

What I remember of childhood is children are pretty rough on each other....especially effeminate boys.  It seem reasonable that the two gay women vs. conventional parents are the cause. 

I see. . .You believe it is "reasonable" that gay folks influence the sexual orientation of their kids. Evidence please? What about all those "conventional" parents who raised children who grew up to be gay? . . . That was a result of parenting and not any sort of predisposition to being gay? I gather you are one of those that believes everyone chooses their sexual orientation? So End, when did you choose to be attracted to women instead of men? When were you first attracted to a man and decided against that in favor of women?

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21 minutes ago, buffettphan said:

 

 

If your explanation had included any "christian" terminology or ideology,  it would have been deleted.  Christians are not  generally allowed to post in this subforum.  We get way too many True ChristiansTM  who try to sneak into Rants giving "helpful advice" at a website that was created for supporting deconverting and ex-christians.    So all I'm saying is if you want the grace of continued posting in Rants, be sure to keep christianity out of responses you make.    Thanks.   

I've been posting in Rants since I got here 8 or so years ago.  NOTHING has ever been said about me posting here nor have I found any rules posted for this particular sub-forum.  Even asked Kevin years ago if it were ok for me to post here....which he said yes.  And let me ask you this, how in the heck are we to overcome the goddamn separations if we can't talk about it. 

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1 minute ago, freshstart said:

I see. . .You believe it is "reasonable" that gay folks influence the sexual orientation of their kids. Evidence please? What about all those "conventional" parents who raised children who grew up to be gay? . . . That was a result of parenting and not any sort of predisposition to being gay? I gather you are one of those that believes everyone chooses their sexual orientation? So End, when did you choose to be attracted to women instead of men? When were you first attracted to a man and decided against that in favor of women?

No no no, you are putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that it affects sexual orientation.  Don't do that.

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58 minutes ago, end3 said:

 

1 hour ago, end3 said:

I haven't pulled the recent research, but thinking the more recent stuff isn't favorable.  

Go ahead. Pull the research and show how gays have caused more harm than straights.

 

1 hour ago, end3 said:

homosexuality was just one thing of many, that may potentially cause "harm".  

Pretty much every "harmful" person I can think of is/was heterosexual. What does sexual orientation have to do with the ability to cause harm?! Again please do point to the research that vindicates heterosexuals as being less harmful than homosexuals!!!

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27 minutes ago, end3 said:

The problem is harmlessness is relative...

No no no!!!!!   Not relative in any way.  Quite measurable.

 

If you are saying my daughter harms others by her existance because of the religious beliefs of others....... THAT IS NOT HER PROBLEM.  She is under NO obligation to fundamentally change herself to satisfy the religious needs of others.  

 

Any attempt to defame her, deny her employment, or passing laws against her,  is these religious folks imposing themselves and their values on her.  It is bullshit.  Wrong.  And far from moral.

 

She harms no one by her existance.  Period.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, end3 said:

No no no, you are putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that it affects sexual orientation.  Don't do that. 

Excuse my misunderstanding. What you implied was that an effeminate child was the result of lesbian parents. My apologies. I guess "conventional" parents never raise "effeminate" boys.

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3 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Excuse my misunderstanding. What you implied was that an effeminate child was the result of lesbian parents. My apologies. I guess "conventional" parents never raise "effeminate" boys.

Wrong again ma'am.   You said I said it affected sexual orientation. I did not say that.  I do believe he is more effeminate by being raised by two women..... a function of lesbianism.  My use of the word conventional is correct.  

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9 minutes ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

No no no!!!!!   Not relative in any way.  Quite measurable.

 

If you are saying my daughter harms others by her existance because of the religious beliefs of others....... THAT IS NOT HER PROBLEM.  She is under NO obligation to fundamentally change herself to satisfy the religious needs of others.  

 

Any attempt to defame her, deny her employment, or passing laws against her is these religious folks imposing themselves and their values on her.  This is bullshit.  Wrong.  And far from moral.

 

She harms no one by her existance.  Period.

 

 

Look lol, I'm sorry you don't understand "relative".  We don't have "truth".  We have particular beliefs about truth... 

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14 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Go ahead. Pull the research and show how gays have caused more harm than straights.

 

Pretty much every "harmful" person I can think of is/was heterosexual. What does sexual orientation have to do with the ability to cause harm?! Again please do point to the research that vindicates heterosexuals as being less harmful than homosexuals!!!

Doing a cursory search....the first four articles on the subject....there were two for no harm, two for harm.  Not sure if they normalize their research to the entire population.

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10 minutes ago, end3 said:

We don't have "truth".  We have particular beliefs about truth... 

 

Duh.  And, not a issue as long as they are not imposed on my daughter via slander, denial of employment, or the law.

 

But, you know damn well the religious groups, and followers, are invading the harmless life of my daughter in all of these areas.

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2 minutes ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

 

Duh.  And, not a issue as long as they are not imposed on my daughter via slander, denial of employment, or the law.

 

But, you know damn well the religious group are invading the harmless life of my daughter in all if these areas.

The good news is we all get a vote in this country....

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2 minutes ago, end3 said:

The good news is we all get a vote in this country....

Bull.  The vote does nothing to protect her from the religious groups demanding her "less than" status when she creates no harm.

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13 minutes ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

No no no!!!!!   Not relative in any way.  Quite measurable.

 

If you are saying my daughter harms others by her existance because of the religious beliefs of others....... THAT IS NOT HER PROBLEM.  She is under NO obligation to fundamentally change herself to satisfy the religious needs of others.  

 

Any attempt to defame her, deny her employment, or passing laws against her is these religious folks imposing themselves and their values on he is bullshit.  Wrong.  And far from moral.

 

She harms no one by her existance.  Period. 

Amen. I'm straight, but coming out (slowly) as an atheist has given me a whole new perspective (and empathy) for those who have had to live in the closet and/or endured persecutuon for who they are and what they believe. I have little tolerance for Christians who pick and choose what to call a sin and then decide which "sins" are more abominable  than others, especially if they refer to Old Testament bullshit. I can go to church if I wanna hear this shit. I can't engage in this conversation any further or I may lose my composure.

Your daughter and daughter-in-law sound amazing. You must be so proud! Peace to you!

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Isn't that the point?  Some people DO think what she's doing is harmful to them or society.  YOU may not think so, but they do.  Who the hell knows, but at some point in history, people have decided that it wasn't the best thing.  Just because you are angry about it and dictate change does not mean the change you wish to see is going to automatically happen REGARDLESS of how much you love  your daughter. 

 

Best bet in my mind is to get over your anger and educate. 

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4 minutes ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

Bull.  The vote does nothing to protect her from the religious groups demanding her "less than" status when she creates no harm.

 

5 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Amen. I'm straight, but coming out (slowly) as an atheist has given me a whole new perspective (and empathy) for those who have had to live in the closet and/or endured persecutuon for who they are and what they believe. I have little tolerance for Christians who pick and choose what to call a sin and then decide which "sins" are more abominable  than others, especially if they refer to Old Testament bullshit. I can go to church if I wanna hear this shit. I can't engage in this conversation any further or I may lose my composure.

Your daughter and daughter-in-law sound amazing. You must be so proud! Peace to you!

I got ya....hate is the answer....good damn job ma'am of perpetuating the problem..

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5 minutes ago, end3 said:

Isn't that the point?  Some people DO think what she's doing is harmful to them or society.  YOU may not think so, but they do.  Who the hell knows, but at some point in history, people have decided that it wasn't the best thing.  Just because you are angry about it and dictate change does not mean the change you wish to see is going to automatically happen REGARDLESS of how much you love  your daughter. 

 

Best bet in my mind is to get over your anger and educate. 

 

Change will not happen without being vocal which is what she's doing. You can educate people all day long about who you are at the core, but at the end of the day you have a lot more at stake than they do. Constantly explaining and educating takes a toll emotionally and sometimes anger comes out, that's normal. Sometimes people don't want to be educated. And sometimes it's not my responsibility to tell people why I or anyone else in the LGBT community deserve common decency.

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13 minutes ago, end3 said:

Best bet in my mind is to get over your anger and educate

 

Educate?!?!  I have literally read every major peer review research report on this topic.  I sought out and spoke with 24 members of the LGBT community.  I spoke in depth with 12 parents of gay children.  I raised my own daughter and have an open and communicative relationship with her.  I have a very deep understanding of the reality of all of this.  You, well, you pretty much have "your beliefs".  And YOU have the gall to tell me to "educate" myself??

 

Yes, you are referring to educating others. But, it does not work if they do not value facts.

 

IF she causes harm, point me to the evidence and research.  Point me to those harmed, so I can talk with them.  But, you really can not do any of these.

 

Bottom line, you see YOUR beliefs as greater then my daughter's reality.  

 

What do you think I am doing here?  I am trying to "educate".

 

Conversation over.  

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2 minutes ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

 

Educate?!?!  I have literally read every major peer review research report on this topic.  I sought out and spoke with 24 members of the LGBT community.  I spoke in depth with 12 parents of gay children.  I raised my own daughter and have an open and communicative relationship with her.  I have a very deep understanding of the reality of all of this.  You, well, you pretty much have "your beliefs".  And YOU have the gall to tell me to "educate" myself??

 

IF she causes harm, point me to the evidence and research.  Point me to those harmed, so I can talk with them.  But, you really can not do any of these.

 

Bottom line, you see YOUR beliefs as greater then my daughter's reality.  

 

Conversation over.  

No, you're biased because I am a Christian.  If you were paying attention you would have noticed that I said some people find what your daughter believes as harmful. And again,  just like your OPINION that it is not harmful.  Sir, just a damn cursory search of the internet I found two pro opinions and two dissenting opinions......just like the definition of relative harm.  Maybe someday society will see the "norm" as gay.....I don't know....and there will be a father advocating for his straight child.  Until then....it ain't gonna happen over night.

 

But you're right, conversation over.  You're too stuck in your anger to see much.....nor are you willing to consider much either. 

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7 hours ago, end3 said:

I've been posting in Rants since I got here 8 or so years ago.  NOTHING has ever been said about me posting here nor have I found any rules posted for this particular sub-forum.  Even asked Kevin years ago if it were ok for me to post here....which he said yes.  And let me ask you this, how in the heck are we to overcome the goddamn separations if we can't talk about it. 

 

 

Christian comments are minimally moderated in the Lion's Den where they are free to post just about anything they want, including homosexual "sin" rhetoric.   However, when christians venture outside the Lion's Den, their comments are under much more scrutiny in order to support the members for whom this website was created.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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