Christians blaming gays

[♦ ficino ♦]

17 hours ago, end3 said:

We can make a case for all of us contributing to less than something perfect.  Homosexuality is just another sin/item on the list. 

SSRs and acts are on the lists of taboos of various church and other religious groups. To say that they are less than perfect or are "sin" rests on assumptions that a good deal of America does not accept.

 

Female-female relations are mentioned above on this thread. There is no clear verse in the Bible condemning them. The only one that is traditionally so construed is Romans 1:26a, but the older interpretation in the church was that Paul denounces anal and/or oral sex between females and males. The evidence for that interpretation is much stronger than evidence that it concerns female-female relations. "Likewise" in Greek, for example, as a conjunctive adverb does not operate backwards to explain an unclear antecedent clause by a following clause. And the Greek word for "use" is never used in a context of a subordinate person - a female, youth, slave - having sexual "use" of a male, or of anyone. There is no example of a woman's being said to have sexual "use" of another woman except in the case of tribads (women who were believed to take the male role in sex, either because they had an enlarged clitoris or whatever). We don't have reason to think Paul refers to tribads. So people need to stop saying that the Bible condemns lesbians; it is probably not addressing them at all.

 

If that is true, then Paul has no generic concept of "homosexuality" with a male and female expression, but something else - most likely, alluding to the prohibition in the Torah of a male "lying the lying of a woman" with another male. But even that started out as limited to within familial relations.

[Joshpantera]

On 8/15/2018 at 3:32 PM, end3 said:

We can make a case for all of us contributing to less than something perfect.  Homosexuality is just another sin/item on the list. 

 

Now hold your horses, Tex, Samuel has just joined to get AWAY from negative christian views about homosexuality and speak to those who have "transcended" that particular bronze age world view. Rant's isn't the same as the Den or ToT. This really isn't a place to platform a debate on the morality of homosexuality according to the bible. And more importantly, it's just plain disrespectful to our new member Samuel, who, has mods for body guards when it comes to christians trying to demean him in any way. I'm not saying that's what you were doing, I'm just saying that he's under our protection and we're not going to allow him to be abused by christians here at this site.  

[RealityCheck]

22 hours ago, end3 said:

Lol, and your definition of "harm" is the correct one I assume.....  In other words, it's ok for gays to believe a certain thing, but if I believe something, it's harm.  I gave you an example of how these two women potentially hurt this child because of their own beliefs.  It wasn't specific to your daughter.  And btw, you are quite defensive for something you believe is right....just sayin.

 

Has it not occurred to you that someone grows up damaged not because of a person's sexual orientation but rather because they're just a lousy parent?  Many here can turn that argument around you and say they're damaged because of a Christian upbringing.  How would you respond to that?

And my daughter?  Holy shit!  Do you know something I don't?  Last time I checked I wasn't a father. 

[TruthSeeker0]

22 hours ago, end3 said:

Isn't that the point?  Some people DO think what she's doing is harmful to them or society.  YOU may not think so, but they do.  Who the hell knows, but at some point in history, people have decided that it wasn't the best thing.  Just because you are angry about it and dictate change does not mean the change you wish to see is going to automatically happen REGARDLESS of how much you love  your daughter. 

 

Best bet in my mind is to get over your anger and educate. 

Yeah, educate, it would be great for the other side as well.

 

"At some point in history, people have decided". Yes, thousands of years ago, the ancient Hebrews (or whatever tribe, it's rather irrelevant), who bear no relevance to the world today, how it should operate, and how people should live. Let's leave out for now that what the Bible actually states about this "sin" is far from clear in a historical context.

 

Like it or not, you are arguing for a world where decisions about human rights should be based on ancient texts.

[Guest end3]

3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Now hold your horses, Tex, Samuel has just joined to get AWAY from negative christian views about homosexuality and speak to those who have "transcended" that particular bronze age world view. Rant's isn't the same as the Den or ToT. This really isn't a place to platform a debate on the morality of homosexuality according to the bible. And more importantly, it's just plain disrespectful to our new member Samuel, who, has mods for body guards when it comes to christians trying to demean him in any way. I'm not saying that's what you were doing, I'm just saying that he's under our protection and we're not going to allow him to be abused by christians here at this site.  

Good god Josh.  I could give a rat's butt about the morality of someone's sexuality.  Again, I said that we all have things we can argue are harmful.  One population says homosexuality is bad for society.  One says smoking, one says eating meat...  This group says evil Christians.  The point I was trying to make....totally outside of homosexuality, was just what I said....it's all relative.  I guess on a certain level, venting or bitching about it helps.  So bitch away. 

 

 

[Guest end3]

2 hours ago, RealityCheck said:

 

Has it not occurred to you that someone grows up damaged not because of a person's sexual orientation but rather because they're just a lousy parent?  Many here can turn that argument around you and say they're damaged because of a Christian upbringing.  How would you respond to that?

And my daughter?  Holy shit!  Do you know something I don't?  Last time I checked I wasn't a father. 

Sounds reasonable to me..

[Guest end3]

31 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Yeah, educate, it would be great for the other side as well.

 

"At some point in history, people have decided". Yes, thousands of years ago, the ancient Hebrews (or whatever tribe, it's rather irrelevant), who bear no relevance to the world today, how it should operate, and how people should live. Let's leave out for now that what the Bible actually states about this "sin" is far from clear in a historical context.

 

Like it or not, you are arguing for a world where decisions about human rights should be based on ancient texts.

Not sure what y'all are wanting....to flip a switch and everyone totally understands and is grace-filled towards anything that they think is detrimental to society. 

 

[Guest end3]

3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Now hold your horses, Tex, Samuel has just joined to get AWAY from negative christian views about homosexuality and speak to those who have "transcended" that particular bronze age world view. Rant's isn't the same as the Den or ToT. This really isn't a place to platform a debate on the morality of homosexuality according to the bible. And more importantly, it's just plain disrespectful to our new member Samuel, who, has mods for body guards when it comes to christians trying to demean him in any way. I'm not saying that's what you were doing, I'm just saying that he's under our protection and we're not going to allow him to be abused by christians here at this site.  

Again, this is what pisses me off....do whatever y'all need to do Josh.  In no way was this a debate about the morality of homosexuality, but rather a statement that we all have shit that we disagree with.  The issue here is this particular group has not reached the level of comprehending this but rather stuck on the evils of one particular group and that END3 is that particular group. 

 

Bitch about it all you want....the issue is what are you going to do about it outside of bitching.  The one person educated themselves to gay issues which sounds smart....but seemed to leave out having conversations with "the other side".  You're smart enough Josh to know "harm" is relative based on whose definition is dealt.  I digress....some of you can't think your way out of a paper bag. 

[ConsiderTheSource]

I have had many conversations with "the other side".  I used to be "the other side" for 20 plus years.  It has been my experience that "the other side" are the ones making next to no effort to communicate with out LGBT citizens, instead just accepting what the men in the pulpit, tv, radio, and their fellow travelers tell them. 

 

My conversations with "the other side" always include the encouragement to "get to know our LGBT citizens on a personal basis.  Gain empathy".  So far, I have had little success in actually getting them to make this effort.  They already "know the truth".  

[Joshpantera]

7 hours ago, end3 said:

Again, this is what pisses me off....do whatever y'all need to do Josh.  In no way was this a debate about the morality of homosexuality, but rather a statement that we all have shit that we disagree with.  The issue here is this particular group has not reached the level of comprehending this but rather stuck on the evils of one particular group and that END3 is that particular group. 

 

Bitch about it all you want....the issue is what are you going to do about it outside of bitching.  The one person educated themselves to gay issues which sounds smart....but seemed to leave out having conversations with "the other side".  You're smart enough Josh to know "harm" is relative based on whose definition is dealt.  I digress....some of you can't think your way out of a paper bag. 

 

That's sort of the context of this website. Up front and open. It's tailored to ex christians and the evils that can come out of a self righteous religion known as christianity. A religion professing to be good, but which has elements which aren't so good. 

 

If we were an ex muslim or jewish group, the sentiment would line up in similar ways relative to the former religious group of discussion. And everyone does seem to comprehend that. So if you read ranting about christianity or people jumping on you as a christian believer, just imagine for a moment that you are a muslim and this an ex muslim site and step back for moment and be objective about the circumstances of what this is, and what's going on. How well received would it be for someone towing the party line of the former religion? How would the mods react to someone towing the party line of the former religion? 

 

Imagine this were about "infidels." 

 

And you chime in, 'well everyone has their own idea of infidels, some are this, some are that, and well some happen to be like the new member who made the opening post...' 

 

Here you are baby steps away from becoming ex christian yourself, as the Dude recently pointed out in the Den. I'm just trying to help you along with a heads up on objectivity. A few tweaks here and there and viola! You're an able body ex christian yourself. And if some christians have a problem with your deconversion, they'll have to deal with me god dam it!!!!

 

 

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

 

That's sort of the context of this website. Up front and open. It's tailored to ex christians and the evils that can come out of a self righteous religion known as christianity. A religion professing to be good, but which has elements which aren't so good. 

 

If we were an ex muslim or jewish group, the sentiment would line up in similar ways relative to the former religious group of discussion. And everyone does seem to comprehend that. So if you read ranting about christianity or people jumping on you as a christian believer, just imagine for a moment that you are a muslim and this an ex muslim site and step back for moment and be objective about the circumstances of what this is, and what's going on. How well received would it be for someone towing the party line of the former religion? How would the mods react to someone towing the party line of the former religion? 

 

Imagine this were about "infidels." 

 

And you chime in, 'well everyone has their own idea of infidels, some are this, some are that, and well some happen to be like the new member who made the opening post...' 

 

Here you are baby steps away from becoming ex christian yourself, as the Dude recently pointed out in the Den. I'm just trying to help you along with a heads up on objectivity. A few tweaks here and there and viola! You're an able body ex christian yourself. And if some christians have a problem with your deconversion, they'll have to deal with me god dam it!!!!

 

 

Yes, that's why I left a lot of room in my opening statement.  After 11 years here, I do, believe it or not, understand the mission of this website, and do understand that people recover at different rates....myself included. 

 

Thanks.

[midniterider]

*drags End3 across the dividing line to the Ex side*

 

(Just kidding. You be whatever you wanna be. That's most important.)

 

[TruthSeeker0]

12 hours ago, end3 said:

Not sure what y'all are wanting....to flip a switch and everyone totally understands and is grace-filled towards anything that they think is detrimental to society. 

 

I have a really big problem with people who think homosexuality is detrimental or they disagree with it, because they believe in "what people decided" thousands of years ago at a time that has zero relevance to today. And if you think that the opinions of people, particularly in the US, where religion still has a huge grip, are not influenced by what a tribe wrote thousands of years ago, then you have your head stuck in the sand. 

[TruthSeeker0]

12 hours ago, end3 said:

Not sure what y'all are wanting....to flip a switch and everyone totally understands and is grace-filled towards anything that they think is detrimental to society. 

 

I want people to get their heads out of the sand and start trying to figure out why they believe things they do, or why they hold the opinions they do. I want them to stop taking what they hear from the pulpit at face value, and start thinking for themselves. This world would be so much better if people bothered to cultivate critical thinking skills. 

[TruthSeeker0]

13 hours ago, end3 said:

Again, this is what pisses me off....do whatever y'all need to do Josh.  In no way was this a debate about the morality of homosexuality, but rather a statement that we all have shit that we disagree with.  The issue here is this particular group has not reached the level of comprehending this but rather stuck on the evils of one particular group and that END3 is that particular group. 

 

Bitch about it all you want....the issue is what are you going to do about it outside of bitching.  The one person educated themselves to gay issues which sounds smart....but seemed to leave out having conversations with "the other side".  You're smart enough Josh to know "harm" is relative based on whose definition is dealt.  I digress....some of you can't think your way out of a paper bag. 

I can't speak for Josh here. But if you were speaking to me I'd tell you that I'm not stuck on the evils of your "group" if you want to put it that way, I'm stuck on the harm that anti-LGBTQ opinions and beliefs can do to people. And they do cause harm. And no I'm not speaking of your specific opinions here. 

[Joshpantera]

6 hours ago, end3 said:

Yes, that's why I left a lot of room in my opening statement.  After 11 years here, I do, believe it or not, understand the mission of this website, and do understand that people recover at different rates....myself included. 

 

Thanks.

 

I like the idea that you didn't mean any harm. I hope you didn't. 

 

[Aries256]

On 8/15/2018 at 12:32 PM, end3 said:

We can make a case for all of us contributing to less than something perfect.  Homosexuality is just another sin/item on the list. 

Sin doesnt exist, and there never was, nor never will be anything wrong with being gay. Ziltch nadda. 

[Aries256]

On 8/16/2018 at 9:33 PM, end3 said:

Again, this is what pisses me off....do whatever y'all need to do Josh.  In no way was this a debate about the morality of homosexuality, but rather a statement that we all have shit that we disagree with.  The issue here is this particular group has not reached the level of comprehending this but rather stuck on the evils of one particular group and that END3 is that particular group. 

 

Bitch about it all you want....the issue is what are you going to do about it outside of bitching.  The one person educated themselves to gay issues which sounds smart....but seemed to leave out having conversations with "the other side".  You're smart enough Josh to know "harm" is relative based on whose definition is dealt.  I digress....some of you can't think your way out of a paper bag. 

No clearly it is types like you who cant think their way out of a paper bag, that is clearly evident. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 8/15/2018 at 3:32 PM, end3 said:

We can make a case for all of us contributing to less than something perfect.  Homosexuality is just another sin/item on the list. 

Fuck off.  There are plenty of non-human species that engage in homosexual behaviors.  If god considers it "sin", he'd have destroyed the world long before people came along.

 

Here.  Let me Google that shit for you:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=homosexuality+in+nature&oq=homosexuality&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0l3.7018j0j7&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 8/15/2018 at 5:27 PM, end3 said:

Just an example....my ex's cousin was a temporary lesbian...to be trendy I believe.  It lasted long enough where they acquired sperm and made their own baby.  The thing is now, the child is very effeminate.  This isn't really the point I was trying to make....but specific to those choices. 

 

A perfect situation is all speculation anyhow.....that if we all follow some set of rules/behaviors, would it help.  Possibly, but love would be the best cliché-like answer that I could tout.  I do however, think some behaviors less attractive to a society.  I truly think this aforementioned child has been affected because he had no male role model.  To what extent and how detrimental it is, I don't know.  I guess it's relative to the "norm".... 

So then, why slag the love two men share for each other?  Ignorance perhaps?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Besides, every parent does some kind of harm to their kids, despite our best efforts.  I know I've screwed up a few times with Redneck Jr.  Once or twice, I've even fucked up royally.  I try to be quick to apologize and make amends; but the damage is done.

 

Who would you rather have raising the kid you mention: two loving lesbians, or a straight woman with a string of boyfriends constantly parading through the house?

[Guest end3]

15 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Besides, every parent does some kind of harm to their kids, despite our best efforts.  I know I've screwed up a few times with Redneck Jr.  Once or twice, I've even fucked up royally.  I try to be quick to apologize and make amends; but the damage is done.

 

Who would you rather have raising the kid you mention: two loving lesbians, or a straight woman with a string of boyfriends constantly parading through the house?

Neither

 

[ConsiderTheSource]

24 minutes ago, end3 said:

15 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Who would you rather have raising the kid you mention: two loving lesbians, or a straight woman with a string of boyfriends constantly parading through the house?

Neither

 

You are a bastard.  My daughter and her wife will raise fine children.  Judgemental prick you are.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 hours ago, end3 said:

Neither

 

Then fortunately for the child, it is not up to you.  Quit trying to play god and controlling other people's lives.

[Guest end3]

10 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Then fortunately for the child, it is not up to you.  Quit trying to play god and controlling other people's lives.

I'm not trying to control anyone....you are the one that chimed in after we left this thread alone.  You then asked which would I prefer.  I said neither.  My preferences have fucking nothing to do with his fucking daughter or what kind of person she is or what kind of child she would raise.  It has everything to do with MY freedom as well.