On Healings

[Hierophant]

I recently ran into a colleague I have not seen since 2010. Since that time, we were catching up and it turns out he went to Bible College and is now minstering on occasion. Naturally I was interested to hear his take on the Christian faith since I recently left it. 

 

We were having the normal discussion and his arguments for the existence of the Christian God were fairly typical until he stated that he has literally seen miracles take place. He stated his brother was deaf in his left ear for the longest time until one day he prayed for him over the phone and his brother's hearing was instantly repaired. Along with this particular healing, he stated he has seen vertebrate become unfused, and limbs lengthened. He did not go into details of each case, but was adamant that these miracles absolutely convince him of the Christian worldview and he cannot be shaken after what he has seen.

 

I am not inclined to believe he is intentionally lying, so I am not sure what to make of these stories. Does anyone have any experience with similar stories and the causes behind them? He does not strike me as a charlatan, like some Benny Hinn kind of guy, he really seems to believe what he is saying is factual.

[pratt]

and the world still have amputees 

[Hierophant]

6 minutes ago, pratt said:

and the world still have amputees 

I was actually thinking that the whole conversation, but I wanted to let my colleague tell his story.

[TABA]

I don’t have any direct experience with healing reports, but I think it’s fair to say that sincere people of various faiths believe they have experienced healings.  I’m not aware of any that can be shown to have no rational scientific explanation.  I think then when a believer knows he’s being prayed for, it can help mentally and maybe even physically. Again, true for Christians, Muslims and others.  

[MOHO]

Believers frequently feel pressured to "play along" when a pastor, or group of believers, is preying. They don't want to speak up and say that the king has no clothes. 

 

C'mon!

We've ALL done this.  

[Hierophant]

25 minutes ago, MOHO said:

Believers frequently feel pressured to "play along" when a pastor, or group of believers, is preying. They don't want to speak up and say that the king has no clothes. 

 

C'mon!

We've ALL done this.  

Haha.....true.

[MamaCaz]

I always wondered why god is so selective with whom he heals.  If he has the power, and if scripture explicitly says that when we pray for healing, or whatever we ask in jesus' name we shall receive, why doesn't he heal more people?  Why not the child with cancer who has thousands of sincere people praying for her?  It just never adds up.

[Hierophant]

20 minutes ago, MamaCaz said:

I always wondered why god is so selective with whom he heals.  If he has the power, and if scripture explicitly says that when we pray for healing, or whatever we ask in jesus' name we shall receive, why doesn't he heal more people?  Why not the child with cancer who has thousands of sincere people praying for her?  It just never adds up.

 

I do not disagree. My colleague went on to say there are healings happening around the world. I wondered to myself why these instances are not being documented by the scientific community if that is indeed the case.

[MamaCaz]

Exactly.  It's like if people all over the world were claiming they were seeing Bigfoot, and had seen it multiple times, you would expect documentation.  But alas...

[florduh]

I had a really good friend who was in a wheelchair due to childhood polio. He was originally from West By God Virginia so he'd had plenty of prayers and miracle tent services that were to no avail. After he moved to Ohio and became an accountant I took him around town a lot and strangers would come up to him and offer to pray for him. To his credit and my great admiration he would tell them to stick those prayers where the sun don't shine.

[sdelsolray]

17 hours ago, TinMan said:

I recently ran into a colleague I have not seen since 2010. Since that time, we were catching up and it turns out he went to Bible College and is now minstering on occasion. Naturally I was interested to hear his take on the Christian faith since I recently left it. 

 

We were having the normal discussion and his arguments for the existence of the Christian God were fairly typical until he stated that he has literally seen miracles take place. He stated his brother was deaf in his left ear for the longest time until one day he prayed for him over the phone and his brother's hearing was instantly repaired. Along with this particular healing, he stated he has seen vertebrate become unfused, and limbs lengthened. He did not go into details of each case, but was adamant that these miracles absolutely convince him of the Christian worldview and he cannot be shaken after what he has seen.

 

I am not inclined to believe he is intentionally lying, so I am not sure what to make of these stories. Does anyone have any experience with similar stories and the causes behind them? He does not strike me as a charlatan, like some Benny Hinn kind of guy, he really seems to believe what he is saying is factual.

 

Ask (nicely) for relevant empirical evidence.  For example, regarding the "vertebrate becom[ing] unfused", how could your colleague have "seen vertebrate become unfused"?  Does he have X-ray vision?  Ask him to provide verified before and after X-rays, MRI and/or CAT scans, verified written statements from independent doctors attesting to the "unfusion" and clarity as to whether it is simply a failed fusion and ask for a complete written history of chart notes, prior medical procedures, etc.  Do the same for his brother.

 

With near certainty, none of this evidence will be forthcoming.  Absolutely none.  Yet, it should exist.  You can then ask why it is not being provided.  Watch him squirm.

 

[TruthSeeker0]

17 hours ago, TinMan said:

We were having the normal discussion and his arguments for the existence of the Christian God were fairly typical until he stated that he has literally seen miracles take place. He stated his brother was deaf in his left ear for the longest time until one day he prayed for him over the phone and his brother's hearing was instantly repaired. Along with this particular healing, he stated he has seen vertebrate become unfused, and limbs lengthened. He did not go into details of each case, but was adamant that these miracles absolutely convince him of the Christian worldview and he cannot be shaken after what he has seen.

 

Right. And if he had grown up under the influence of a worldview in which a flying spaghetti monster was the supreme deity who willed and did not will things to happen, he would attribute these healings to the flying spaghetti monster of course. Why do people think that because some things happen, the christian god exists? Hmm.

[LogicalFallacy]

@TinMan Go to my old church and you'll hear plenty of such stories. Now whether they are backed up in reality is a different matter. (Like a claim that God completely healed a stroke victim….. 35 years later the doctors said half the brain was dead and had been since the stroke. Who you gonna believe? )

 

Also these reports happen for different religions with different Gods. Therefore "healings" prove nothing.

[Hierophant]

7 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

@TinMan Go to my old church and you'll hear plenty of such stories. Now whether they are backed up in reality is a different matter. (Like a claim that God completely healed a stroke victim….. 35 years later the doctors said half the brain was dead and had been since the stroke. Who you gonna believe? )

 

Also these reports happen for different religions with different Gods. Therefore "healings" prove nothing.

 

Do you have any references for healings in othrr religions? It's hard not to find a bunch of biased websites.

[MOHO]

Last week Mrs. MOHO was at it again stating that, because she prayed for a nice evening breeze to cool things off, god provided it.

 

I have stated here before that this breeze comes up 360 days out of the year - but I had had it this time. I let loose with the....

 

"I see. Your god ignores all those starving children in the world to grant you a breeze, eh?"

 

"He can do both!" said she.

 

At this point I saw absolutely no reason to point out that those children are still starving. I reckon most folks who are diluted are that way because they choose to be. 

 

 

[MamaCaz]

10 minutes ago, MOHO said:

Last week Mrs. MOHO was at it again stating that, because she prayed for a nice evening breeze to cool things off, god provided it.

 

I have stated here before that this breeze comes up 360 days out of the year - but I had had it this time. I let loose with the....

 

"I see. Your god ignores all those starving children in the world to grant you a breeze, eh?"

 

"He can do both!" said she.

 

At this point I saw absolutely no reason to point out that those children are still starving. I reckon most folks who are diluted are that way because they choose to be. 

 

 

I saw this meme on Facebook this morning.

[MOHO]

@MamaCaz,

 

I get the impression that folks who make outrageous claims such as that FB poster are searching desperately for anything that will mitigate their disbelief that they foster deep down inside. 

[TruthSeeker0]

5 hours ago, MOHO said:

@MamaCaz,

 

I get the impression that folks who make outrageous claims such as that FB poster are searching desperately for anything that will mitigate their disbelief that they foster deep down inside. 

I would have actually taken that as a nonbeliever being incredibly sarcastic. That's how stupid it is.

[MamaCaz]

5 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I would have actually taken that as a nonbeliever being incredibly sarcastic. That's how stupid it is.

Oh no, I can attest to such stupidity personally

[MOHO]

36 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I would have actually taken that as a nonbeliever being incredibly sarcastic. That's how stupid it is.

 

Oh.

Yeah.

I guess that one would mostly have appeared sarcastic, but then again, we've all experienced fundies actually seeing things this way - like @MamaCaz said above. 

[Hierophant]

On 8/28/2018 at 11:45 PM, MOHO said:

Last week Mrs. MOHO was at it again stating that, because she prayed for a nice evening breeze to cool things off, god provided it.

 

I have stated here before that this breeze comes up 360 days out of the year - but I had had it this time. I let loose with the....

 

"I see. Your god ignores all those starving children in the world to grant you a breeze, eh?"

 

"He can do both!" said she.

 

At this point I saw absolutely no reason to point out that those children are still starving. I reckon most folks who are diluted are that way because they choose to be. 

 

 

 

I can understand how fundies might consider God is throwing them free chicken if they think about it in a vacuum, but once you look at the grand picture, surely the idea God is kicking a breeze your way while thousands are sucking has to strike you as silly.

[mwc]

     If you're a faith healer then god sure as shit better heal...

 

          mwc

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 8/28/2018 at 10:57 AM, MamaCaz said:

I saw this meme on Facebook this morning.

god damn it.  How many times do I have to point out that this is NOT exactly 2/3 cup?!?  When measuring in glassware, surface tension and capillary effect cause the liquid to rise higher around the circumference of the glass and create a divot in the middle.  The lowest point of this divot is called the meniscus, which provides the most accurate reading point.  In order for the measuring cup in this meme to contain exactly 2/3 cup, the meniscus should be resting directly on the 2/3 line.  As it is, the meniscus is clearly well below the 2/3 line, which even the blind son of a bitch and her bastard brother could see.

 

How in the name of Hades, and all that is unholy, could a guy trust god for the salvation of his immortal soul, if he can't even trust god to get the right amount of milk for his baked goods?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I also used to be deaf in my left ear.  Turns out it was caused by a compaction as the result of sticking Q-Tips in too far.  Using a giant 50mL syringe and some warm water, I was able to blast the thing to pieces until it came out entirely.  Physician, heal thy fucking self.

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 8/27/2018 at 3:08 AM, TinMan said:

He stated his brother was deaf in his left ear for the longest time until one day he prayed for him over the phone and his brother's hearing was instantly repaired. Along with this particular healing, he stated he has seen vertebrate become unfused, and limbs lengthened.

 

I can't say what happened with the hearing in this particular example, if it's true. However, sdelsolray addressed the vertebrae claim very well, and I'd like to add that "limbs lengthened" is a well-known parlor trick (one's body can shift in subtle ways to give the false impression of limbs lengthening). Anyone who falls for that sort of stuff clearly cannot be trusted to be fairly assessing the things he speaks of.