My Tongue Is Sore From All The Biting.

[L.B.]

My wife is raising my daughters to be Christards... not relatively reasonable, thinking Christians, but full-on suburban-Christianity-deluded fools.

 

"Mom... so, my friend and I were hanging out with her other friend, who's only, like, a go to church on Sunday Christian, but like, the rest of her life, she isn't really Christian..." (How do you know, and who gave you the criteria by which you could judge accurately?)

 

"So, mom... we were watching this TV show that's really, really, really loosely based on the Bible and stuff..." (So, you're judging the writers of STORIES based on their interpretation of... STORIES. Who gave you the correct interpretation of the Bible stories, and what credentials do they possess that make them expert?)

 

I cannot believe the unfeigned, yet totally ignorant arrogance that this religion fosters in people who are clinging to it for their own selfish emotional reasons. A perusal of the most basic flowchart of logical argument would shut a thinking person up in seconds. It amazes me that not only is there no rational thinking behind what they were saying, there's actual head-nodding agreement and encouragement happening in response from my wife.

[florduh]

Sorry, I can't even imagine allowing a child to be indoctrinated into a cult.

[MOHO]

1 hour ago, L.B. said:

I cannot believe the unfeigned, yet totally ignorant arrogance that this religion fosters in people who are clinging to it for their own selfish emotional reasons. A perusal of the most basic flowchart of logical argument would shut a thinking person up in seconds. It amazes me that not only is there no rational thinking behind what they were saying, there's actual head-nodding agreement and encouragement happening in response from my wife.

 

The incredibly strong impact of the indoctrination and group-think never ceases to both amaze and flumox me. Most days it's like watching a train wreck. It's even worse watching a loved one become so under the influence. Each day I marvel at what could be. At what a wonderful and fulfilling life Mrs. MOHO and I could have if she would just wake up and think.

 

But then, from her perspective, she's probably wishing I would come back to the fold and enjoy the fundy-fuck with her. 

 

[L.B.]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

Sorry, I can't even imagine allowing a child to be indoctrinated into a cult.

 

No, it's worse... she's encouraging these girls to get into this as if its their free, rational choice to "have a relationship with jeezis". They're encouraged to read their bibles, pray and "worship", and spend time with a "friend's" church youth group because they're "living their lives for god" or some shit.

[L.B.]

@MOHO:

 

The saddest part is that when I was a "preacher" and musician, I had all the friends I could ever want, to hang out with or whatever.

 

If I don't include myself in my wife's trips to church or to a friend's house, they never ask about me - or at least they never bother to care enough to email, or text, or call, or drop by, or send a fucking postcard, or whatever.

 

I have been wondering lately - if I told my wife I had gas money to spend and nothing important on my calendar... how long would it take even those who are closest to me to realize that I hadn't been around for a day? More?

 

How long would it take for all these other fake-ass people to realize they never saw me at all anymore?

 

Why should I even care anymore if anyone noticed I was gone? If they were so fucking concerned about where I am and how I am, they would have made an effort by now, a LONG time ago.

[Daffodil]

No offense, but are you saying anything to counteract this indoctrination?  As their father, if you are actually living with them (I don't know your domestic situation), I would be taking every possible opportunity to throw a few logic wrenches into their crazy ideas.  It doesn't even have to be very obvious.  Just ask thoughtful questions such as, "So what makes for a 'real' Christian?"  "If you can't see inside her mind, how do you know what your friend really believes?  After all, Christianity is about faith, not works, so how can you know?"  Just get them to think a little bit in a way they're not currently doing.  Again, I don't know your domestic situation or whether you are "out" to your family, but it seems to me that rather than insulting your young impressionable children, you should be actively trying to minimize the damage their mother is doing to them and giving them at least a chance at a life outside of the insanity.  And even if they are teenagers, they are still impressionable.  So do some impressing!

[Insightful]

5 hours ago, Daffodil said:

No offense, but are you saying anything to counteract this indoctrination?  I would be taking every possible opportunity to throw a few logic wrenches into their crazy ideas.  It doesn't even have to be very obvious.  Just ask thoughtful questions such as, "So what makes for a 'real' Christian?"  Just get them to think a little bit in a way they're not currently doing...  you should be actively trying to minimize the damage their mother is doing to them and giving them at least a chance at a life outside of the insanity.  And even if they are teenagers, they are still impressionable.  So do some impressing!

I couldn't have said it better!  Exactly what Daffodil said.  I'm in the same situation (christian wife, 2 girls) and there are so many opportunities to foster critical thinking in ways that stay under the radar.  Critical thinking is a gift you can give your chilren that will protect them against all  kinds of wrong ideas!

[JenniferG]

On 9/4/2018 at 9:47 AM, florduh said:

Sorry, I can't even imagine allowing a child to be indoctrinated into a cult.

 

It's horrible to imprison a child's mind like that. I'm still traumatized by PTSD earworms of those inane Sunday School songs that randomly pop up when I'm minding my own business:

"The B I B L E, yes that's the book for me

I love to hear the stories of the B I B L E"

 

My heart was black as sin

Until the Savior came in

His precious blood I know

Has washed me white as snow

For in his book I'm to-oh-old

The streets are paved with go-oh-old

A wonderful, wonderful day

He took my sins away

 

Also, there was one I learned in South Africa as a child:

"The most precious book is the Bible

The most precious book is the Bible

If you read it every day

You'll always be safe (on your way)

Yes, the most precious book is the Bible.

(This is translated from Afrikaans - so that it doesn't quite rhyme well in prose)

 

P.S. How much more beautiful would my mind have been if I had memorized Shakespeare,  and the works and thoughts of other great writers and minds than the archaic crap I was forced to do.

We had to memorize The Lord's Prayer and a few Psalms in the public school when Religion was included in the curriculum. Thank goodness I didn't learn science till High School although they taught neither Creationism nor Evolution - just a splattering of chemistry and the usual High School experiments of the day.

 

I'm so glad I can contribute scientific thought to my grandchildren when they talk about god. (Their parents are nominal Catholic believers.)

 

[JenniferG]

On 9/4/2018 at 11:30 AM, L.B. said:

@MOHO:

 

The saddest part is that when I was a "preacher" and musician, I had all the friends I could ever want, to hang out with or whatever.

 

If I don't include myself in my wife's trips to church or to a friend's house, they never ask about me - or at least they never bother to care enough to email, or text, or call, or drop by, or send a fucking postcard, or whatever.

 

I have been wondering lately - if I told my wife I had gas money to spend and nothing important on my calendar... how long would it take even those who are closest to me to realize that I hadn't been around for a day? More?

 

How long would it take for all these other fake-ass people to realize they never saw me at all anymore?

 

Why should I even care anymore if anyone noticed I was gone? If they were so fucking concerned about where I am and how I am, they would have made an effort by now, a LONG time ago.

 

No, they get spooked when a sheeple dares to challenge their faith, their holy book and their whole house of cards. They'd rather circle their wagons, gossip, pity the poor wife whose husband had grown horns and turned into the devil. That's how my former Xtian brain would have perceived the situation. "Oh let's pray and pray and pray for brother L.B. - he'll return to the fold." Baa-baa!

[TruthSeeker0]

2 hours ago, JenniferG said:

 

No, they get spooked when a sheeple dares to challenge their faith, their holy book and their whole house of cards. They'd rather circle their wagons, gossip, pity the poor wife whose husband had grown horns and turned into the devil. That's how my former Xtian brain would have perceived the situation. "Oh let's pray and pray and pray for brother L.B. - he'll return to the fold." Baa-baa!

Said so well. I often dream of returning to church, marching up the pulpit, and telling them all exactly what I think. But they're so brainwashed all they would do is pity poor old me who has been convinced by satan to desert the One Truth. It's sad.

[MOHO]

12 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Said so well. I often dream of returning to church, marching up the pulpit, and telling them all exactly what I think. But they're so brainwashed all they would do is pity poor old me who has been convinced by satan to desert the One Truth. It's sad.

 

I know this is fantasy but wouldn't it be something if we could bring some slides, videos, and charts and really do this up in a manner that would capture their attention for < one hour?

[TruthSeeker0]

1 hour ago, MOHO said:

 

I know this is fantasy but wouldn't it be something if we could bring some slides, videos, and charts and really do this up in a manner that would capture their attention for < one hour?

I admit it, this fantasy is all related to the fact it's not that easy to be seen as a black sheep. To just sense the vibes of judgement coming off of some people. I really wish I didn't give a fuck about stuff like that but it's really hard when your personal challenges were what brought you to questioning your faith in the first place. And now there's no understanding from those believers because their attitude is "you've lost gods blessing since you deserted him." I've kept my mouth shut on these subjects but it likely hasn't occured to them that god did shit to bless me when I was a believer, quite the opposite. 

[Ellinas]

I'm not going to criticize LB.  His family will have a dynamic as individual as any other, and what is both possible and realistic will vary.  Depending on how far this has gone and the mentality of those involved, overt intervention may even confirm his daughters in their positions.  After all, Christianity has a way of defending itself via a fortress mentality.

 

But, if it is realistically possible, Daffodil's approach is a good one.

 

I have a son.  We don't talk much about anything of a religious/spiritual nature these days.  He was brought up going to church.  He has listened to many a preacher (including his father on occasions).  As my own position changed, I just let slip the odd comment about the rationality of the positions being taken.  Apart from my wife once telling me that she was concerned by "snide comments", it never caused any great problem.  Softly-softly...

 

My son is now at university, never goes to church, and has no time for the nonsense. Provided LB's daughters are prepared to think for themselves, maybe just the odd comment, over time, will be all that is needed, and work better than a full frontal assault.

[quinntar]

On 9/5/2018 at 1:46 AM, L.B. said:

My wife is raising my daughters to be Christards... not relatively reasonable, thinking Christians, but full-on suburban-Christianity-deluded fools.

 

"Mom... so, my friend and I were hanging out with her other friend, who's only, like, a go to church on Sunday Christian, but like, the rest of her life, she isn't really Christian..." (How do you know, and who gave you the criteria by which you could judge accurately?)

 

"So, mom... we were watching this TV show that's really, really, really loosely based on the Bible and stuff..." (So, you're judging the writers of STORIES based on their interpretation of... STORIES. Who gave you the correct interpretation of the Bible stories, and what credentials do they possess that make them expert?)

 

I cannot believe the unfeigned, yet totally ignorant arrogance that this religion fosters in people who are clinging to it for their own selfish emotional reasons. A perusal of the most basic flowchart of logical argument would shut a thinking person up in seconds. It amazes me that not only is there no rational thinking behind what they were saying, there's actual head-nodding agreement and encouragement happening in response from my wife.

One day there will be law's against such indoctrination, I hope.

 

[Daffodil]

4 hours ago, sunstring said:

One day there will be law's against such indoctrination, I hope.

 

 

Gawd I hope not!  Just think for a moment what kinds of things could be classified as “indoctrination”.  Who gets to decide what is “indoctrination”?  Despite the damage this stuff causes, beware the unintended consequences of laws.

[quinntar]

2 hours ago, Daffodil said:

 

Gawd I hope not!  Just think for a moment what kinds of things could be classified as “indoctrination”.  Who gets to decide what is “indoctrination”?  Despite the damage this stuff causes, beware the unintended consequences of laws.

All religion will be against the law one day, I hope.

[sdelsolray]

6 hours ago, sunstring said:

All religion will be against the law one day, I hope.

 

That has a very, very low probability of occurring.

 

I hope, as time passes, fewer and fewer people will embrace, or be indoctrinated into, superstitious, magical and irrational thinking.

[quinntar]

1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

 

That has a very, very low probability of occurring.

 

I hope, as time passes, fewer and fewer people will embrace, or be indoctrinated into, superstitious, magical and irrational thinking.

If we outgrow our infantile behavior I think that is a real poss (Possibility)

[VerbosityCat]

That sounds really frustrating. I often find myself wondering why Christians can't see through it. My issue isn't that they believe weird things. Pretty much everybody in the world believes weird things. (Even Atheists. The weird things they believe just aren't religious). I mean we are all laughably and embarrassingly wrong about something, and probably most things when you get down to it. My issue is that they are believing HARMFUL weird things and harming themselves and everybody around them with it.

 

And like you said, that ignorant arrogance. It's very frustrating to deal with because if they could have the tiniest bit of humility about it, I think it would go a long way, but nope, they and they alone have THE TRUTH. They know EXACTLY how the entire universe operates. It's so simplistic and stupid, this idea that you have it "all" figured out.

 

I had a similar tongue biting moment today. I was speaking with a Christian friend about how indigenous groups (the "pagans") were persecuted and killed if they didn't convert and all the customs and cultural things we have just LOST because of this idiocy, and then she started talking about how Christians were persecuted. And I really think she was just trying to identify with me. But I'm thinking... Christians were mostly persecuted by OTHER Christians.The number of Christians truly persecuted in any real way by non-christians is so laughably small that I don't think it merits a discussion.

 

And sorry if I'm hijacking here a little, on a bit of a mini-rant of my own but it baffles me why Christians talk about pagans (like the original indigenous groups), as a "they". If your ancestors came from those areas your ancestors were forcibly converted to Christianity. They always want to identify "with" the foreign occupying force. Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome to me.

 

Like why can't they look at the history of how Christianity and see that it isn't some organic system that rose up, it was imposed. Violently. There is no such thing as peaceful mass conversion.It just doesn't happen. Any time you have large groups of people converting to a totally foreign ideology you can bet there was violence involved. People had their own cultures, their own belief systems and their own traditions that worked just fine for them.

 

 

[VerbosityCat]

On 9/4/2018 at 1:09 PM, MOHO said:

 

 

But then, from her perspective, she's probably wishing I would come back to the fold and enjoy the fundy-fuck with her. 

 

 

This. I've been out of Christianity for 20 years now, and my mother STILL thinks she can get me to come back to Jesus. Hope springs eternal, I guess. I think this is what people don't understand about "why we can't just get over it." I think most of us really could "just get over it" and "stop being mad at Christianity" if it weren't for the fact that there are people in our lives, such as family who we love who have the Jesus Stockholm Syndrome. It isn't really reasonable to ask us to just cut off our family since for many of us we are not actually in "abusive" situations, just frustrating ones. And I totally feel you on the "what could have been."

 

I do have a lot of hope in general though. There is the super fundy segment, but in general the Pew Research results are moving toward more secular everything. Even Christmas is becoming more Yule every year.  And every year Easter is bunnies and eggs and chocolate and baby chicks and flowers.

[VerbosityCat]

On 9/5/2018 at 8:15 PM, JenniferG said:

 

It's horrible to imprison a child's mind like that. I'm still traumatized by PTSD earworms of those inane Sunday School songs that randomly pop up when I'm minding my own business:

"

 

This is the one that's been stuck in my head: "It took him just a week to make the moon and the stars, the sun and the earth and Jupiter and Mars."

 

It never made sense to me that a god would make 1 planet and populate it with people and be really anal retentive about hiding himself while obsessing about if we believed in him... while also making all these other planets with  no life. WHY??? Why make those other planets? It's just so goofy.

[TruthSeeker0]

23 minutes ago, Cat987 said:

 

And sorry if I'm hijacking here a little, on a bit of a mini-rant of my own but it baffles me why Christians talk about pagans (like the original indigenous groups), as a "they". If your ancestors came from those areas your ancestors were forcibly converted to Christianity. They always want to identify "with" the foreign occupying force. Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome to me.

 

Like why can't they look at the history of how Christianity and see that it isn't some organic system that rose up, it was imposed. Violently. There is no such thing as peaceful mass conversion.It just doesn't happen. Any time you have large groups of people converting to a totally foreign ideology you can bet there was violence involved. People had their own cultures, their own belief systems and their own traditions that worked just fine for them.

 

 

I used to be one of those Christians who didn't bother to think about indigenous peoples and forced conversion at all. Somehow, when you're an xtian, and particularly a fundie, everything becomes justified as "saving souls" or "it was god's will". But what actually helped clue me in and start thinking about this was the overt racism in the church towards native people. And getting an education. That was when I became aware of what you call ignorant arrogance in the church. I think this is probably a common path in deconversion, first people critique things like hypocrisy and arrogance and behaviour that seems wrong, and then they start digging more deeply into the beliefs and doctrine as a result of that.

[VerbosityCat]

26 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I used to be one of those Christians who didn't bother to think about indigenous peoples and forced conversion at all. Somehow, when you're an xtian, and particularly a fundie, everything becomes justified as "saving souls" or "it was god's will". But what actually helped clue me in and start thinking about this was the overt racism in the church towards native people. And getting an education. That was when I became aware of what you call ignorant arrogance in the church. I think this is probably a common path in deconversion, first people critique things like hypocrisy and arrogance and behaviour that seems wrong, and then they start digging more deeply into the beliefs and doctrine as a result of that.

 

The sad thing is... we were ALL indigenous peoples with indigenous native cultures that were specifically relevant to us. And Christianity blew in and just tore it down. I mean it's hundreds and thousands of years of naturally evolving traditions and belief systems destroyed. And although they are "nicer" about it (i.e. not murdering and maiming), they're still destroying native cultures all over the world. I wonder if the people converting from their native faiths to Christianity now, have any idea what they are giving up and losing?

 

[TruthSeeker0]

Yes, that is a very good point. And one of the reasons I'm become a bit more curious about my heritage and background, but alas I can't figure out a thing really about possible "pagan" roots or beliefs. And family is the last place I could ask questions, because they largely ignore the "unbelievers", both living and dead.

[VerbosityCat]

32 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Yes, that is a very good point. And one of the reasons I'm become a bit more curious about my heritage and background, but alas I can't figure out a thing really about possible "pagan" roots or beliefs. And family is the last place I could ask questions, because they largely ignore the "unbelievers", both living and dead.

 

Do you have any idea at all about where your ancestors came from? There's likely to be a mix of some sort, in which case you can explore and see which if any mythology appeals to you. Unless you have a strong Celtic background (which of course leads to the celtic myths/gods/etc.) or have more Greek roots, if your ancestors came from Europe, there is a pretty high likelihood that they at one point followed the germanic/norse gods and customs. That spread out over a pretty wide area of northern Europe, not just scandinavia. The reason many people use the norse god names is because the germanic and norse gods are the same gods with different names but the mythology was better preserved by the norse (in Iceland.) Also it's important to realize just how much has been preserved. Like almost all the Christmas traditions for example are really pagan traditions. And a lot of them come from the norse/germanic Yule celebration. Technically Christmas overtook Saturnalia, but as it "spread", everybody pretty much had their own winter solstice celebrations. Much of what came to America in the form of Christmas customs comes to us from Yule. (I mean we even have the yule log, and the word "yuletide" in many christmas carols.)

 

Needless to say my holiday celebrations around the winter solstice haven't changed much. I celebrate with my family as always and just leave out all the Jesus parts, which leaves me with all the pagan/yule parts.

 

Most of the secular holidays we culturally celebrate are pretty pagan in nature. For me it wasn't so much about trying to reconstruct exactly what my ancestors believed or did, but seeing what remained that could be salvaged and what worked and fit naturally for me. I guess to me much of what people consider "secular" society strikes me as way more pagan than "secular" because secular implies something isn't sacred. Well it isn't sacred to Christians but there are a lot of things labeled "secular" that are plenty sacred to other people and that includes the spiritual atheist category.

 

Over time I've come to feel that the "needfor religion" so many people seem to have is a need for connection to something and some sort of "practice" or ritual or routine. I don't really think it's about "what you believe" at all. I think some people like having a sort of background assurance that "everything will be okay" (if they are inclined toward believing in something beyond this life) but for the practical matter of living I think people just want to feel connected to something.

I just want to feel like I have some sort of connection to those who came before me and I like to think they would be happy to know even centuries later that Christianity is losing its death grip on their descendants and that many are seeking to reconnect with something older.

 

There is something that really bugs me about the idea that my ancestors all were converted or died in vain clinging to their way with nobody to preserve traditions or customs or myths and pass them on. To me it's important to know that it is "continuing on" in some way (stories/myths/customs) I don't think it so much matters what people "believe about" their ancestral gods or customs or whatever. I just want to know that Christianity didn't totally beat us. That it didn't put out that flame and that we can still carry it on in our own way going forward.