The Psychology Behind Prayer and Ritual

[TheRedneckProfessor]

https://www.psychologistworld.com/superstition

 

Repeating the same behavior and hoping for different results.

[Guest end3]

Pardon my lack of science here, but they were actually being fed....you turn around two or three time and food comes out doesn't seem superstitious to me....more, I do the trick and get a reward....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Yes, they were being fed... randomly.  This means that not every time they did their little dance resulted in a reward.  But they got the reward often enough to make them keep trying.  This is mirrored by people whose prayers are "answered" just often enough to feed their confirmation bias and keep them praying, even when it yields no result.  

[florduh]

It seems to be the same mechanism that is at work in the slot machines and lottery ticket scams. You can occasionally win a bit or at least hear about someone else who won so you keep on throwing money away.

 

Gotta go. I hear machine number 13 is overdue and 13 is my lucky number to boot. Kiss me for luck!

[quinntar]

[midniterider]

Do we have replication and subsequent consensus? God I hope so.

[midniterider]

 

14 hours ago, end3 said:

Pardon my lack of science here, but they were actually being fed....you turn around two or three time and food comes out doesn't seem superstitious to me....more, I do the trick and get a reward....

 

Every time I typed on a keyboard for two weeks, the magic fairies  dropped money into my bank account. So I just kept doing it. It worked for years!

[Realist]

.. the get out of line for unanswered prayer was always "no is an answer too!" 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 hours ago, midniterider said:

Do we have replication and subsequent consensus? God I hope so.

Here, let me Google that shit for you :

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=replication+of+the+pigeon+superstition&oq=replication+of+the+pigeon+su&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j33.25496j1j7&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[Guest end3]

8 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

 

Every time I typed on a keyboard for two weeks, the magic fairies  dropped money into my bank account. So I just kept doing it. It worked for years!

Lol,  I'm still having trouble with this experiment.  We know for a fact they were fed.  We don't know whether we are conditioned the same way...no way to tell.  Junk science I say.

[TruthSeeker0]

Yeah it's always easy to write stuff off when there's any implication that it might have something to do with your beliefs, lol. 

Probably explains why I gave up with prayer shortly after being confirmed. "No is an answer too" is something I just didn't accept. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 hours ago, end3 said:

Lol,  I'm still having trouble with this experiment.  We know for a fact they were fed.  We don't know whether we are conditioned the same way...no way to tell.  Junk science I say.

God damn it End3.  Fucking Randomly.  How is this so diffucult for you to understand that the word "randomly" is the operative word.  You're just being willfully ignorant at this point.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

God damn it End3.  Fucking Randomly.  How is this so diffucult for you to understand that the word "randomly" is the operative word.  You're just being willfully ignorant at this point.

Okay.  I was being an asshole there.  I know better than to respond when I have a headache.  So, here's what is going on in the mind of the pigeon during the experiment:

 

"Hey, I just got a bit of food for no apparent reason."  This happens a few times, randomly.  Then the pigeons starts to wonder why he is getting these random. treats.  Suddenly, it occurs to the pigeon that, maybe, the treats aren't random after all.  Maybe the pigeon himself is doing something that might be causing the treats to be given him.  So the bird pays attention to what he was doing just before the last treat was delivered.  Lo and behold, he was doing his little dance.  He forms a connection in his mind between getting treats and doing his little dance.  From that moment on, every time he feels the need to get some food, he starts doing his little dance.  The problem is, though, that the food is still being given randomly, which means that the majority of the times the bird dances, he gets nothing.  But, every once in a while, he does his dance and actually does get the food.  This feeds the bird's superstition that the dance is what causes the food to come.  And he goes around singing, "I'm a bird, motherfucker; I'm a bird.  Look at me, motherfucker; I'm a bird."  We know, or at least those of us who aren't trying to be dumb on purpose, know, that what is really happening is carefully orchestrated "coincidence".

 

What happens when a believer prays for something simple, like finances or lost car keys?  Sometimes the prayer gets answered in the manner in which the believer had hoped.  This forms a connection in the believer's mind that the prayer is what caused the outcome.  But such answers are random as well.  More often than not, the believer would have eventually found his keys or had a windfall of cash, even without he had prayed.  And, more often than not as well, the prayer is simply not answered in the way the believer had hoped, especially if the prayer were something more "difficult", like praying for Uncle Don to be cured of the prostate cancer that eventually killed him, or for grandpa to come out of the coma he was in for three weeks before finally crossing over to that far distant shore where we will all meet by and by.  However, because of the connection already established in the believer's mind, the prayers that are answered favorably reinforce the confirmation bias, whereas the prayers that are answered unfavorably, or simply not at all, are explained away as god working in mysterious ways.  Just as the pigeon continues doing his little dance with the expectation of receiving food every time, so the believer continues to pray and expects a favorable outcome, despite knowing full well that god either can't or won't regrow an amputated leg or resurrect a favorite childhood pet.  This is Einstein's definition of insanity.  The believer knows that his prayers are unlikely to be answered favorably (if at all), as more often than not, the answer is either, "No" or "Not yet."  But he prays anyway.  He therefore repeats the same behavior, while expecting different results.  He does this because of the few times his prayers are "answered" exactly as he had hoped, without realizing that what he is experiencing is nothing more than statistical coincidence.  If he prays everyday for his finances, while holding down a job and budgeting his money, eventually his prayer will be "answered"; but the fact that he prayed last night for his finances and today received his tax return in the mail is nothing more than coincidence, same as the pigeon receiving food shortly after he twirls around.

 

Please don't pretend not to understand this, End3.  When you pull that particular stunt (which is somewhat often), it is as annoying as it is unproductive.  As for it being "junk science" perhaps you should click on the google link I provided above and see how many times this experiment has been replicated and peer reviewed.  As a scientist yourself, you should respect and appreciate the gravity of the (overwhelming) evidence.  Have a good day.

[readyforchange]

Really good breakdown and comparison RedNeckProf

[Guest end3]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 10:35 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Okay.  I was being an asshole there.  I know better than to respond when I have a headache.  So, here's what is going on in the mind of the pigeon during the experiment:

 

"Hey, I just got a bit of food for no apparent reason."  This happens a few times, randomly.  Then the pigeons starts to wonder why he is getting these random. treats.  Suddenly, it occurs to the pigeon that, maybe, the treats aren't random after all.  Maybe the pigeon himself is doing something that might be causing the treats to be given him.  So the bird pays attention to what he was doing just before the last treat was delivered.  Lo and behold, he was doing his little dance.  He forms a connection in his mind between getting treats and doing his little dance.  From that moment on, every time he feels the need to get some food, he starts doing his little dance.  The problem is, though, that the food is still being given randomly, which means that the majority of the times the bird dances, he gets nothing.  But, every once in a while, he does his dance and actually does get the food.  This feeds the bird's superstition that the dance is what causes the food to come.  And he goes around singing, "I'm a bird, motherfucker; I'm a bird.  Look at me, motherfucker; I'm a bird."  We know, or at least those of us who aren't trying to be dumb on purpose, know, that what is really happening is carefully orchestrated "coincidence".

 

What happens when a believer prays for something simple, like finances or lost car keys?  Sometimes the prayer gets answered in the manner in which the believer had hoped.  This forms a connection in the believer's mind that the prayer is what caused the outcome.  But such answers are random as well.  More often than not, the believer would have eventually found his keys or had a windfall of cash, even without he had prayed.  And, more often than not as well, the prayer is simply not answered in the way the believer had hoped, especially if the prayer were something more "difficult", like praying for Uncle Don to be cured of the prostate cancer that eventually killed him, or for grandpa to come out of the coma he was in for three weeks before finally crossing over to that far distant shore where we will all meet by and by.  However, because of the connection already established in the believer's mind, the prayers that are answered favorably reinforce the confirmation bias, whereas the prayers that are answered unfavorably, or simply not at all, are explained away as god working in mysterious ways.  Just as the pigeon continues doing his little dance with the expectation of receiving food every time, so the believer continues to pray and expects a favorable outcome, despite knowing full well that god either can't or won't regrow an amputated leg or resurrect a favorite childhood pet.  This is Einstein's definition of insanity.  The believer knows that his prayers are unlikely to be answered favorably (if at all), as more often than not, the answer is either, "No" or "Not yet."  But he prays anyway.  He therefore repeats the same behavior, while expecting different results.  He does this because of the few times his prayers are "answered" exactly as he had hoped, without realizing that what he is experiencing is nothing more than statistical coincidence.  If he prays everyday for his finances, while holding down a job and budgeting his money, eventually his prayer will be "answered"; but the fact that he prayed last night for his finances and today received his tax return in the mail is nothing more than coincidence, same as the pigeon receiving food shortly after he twirls around.

 

Please don't pretend not to understand this, End3.  When you pull that particular stunt (which is somewhat often), it is as annoying as it is unproductive.  As for it being "junk science" perhaps you should click on the google link I provided above and see how many times this experiment has been replicated and peer reviewed.  As a scientist yourself, you should respect and appreciate the gravity of the (overwhelming) evidence.  Have a good day.

The point I'm trying to make is the pigeons were fed, period, to later invoke a response.  We can't say this is true for prayer because we have no way of proving a person was initially "fed" from God. 

 

If you want an argument for prayer, it might be this:  If a person is prays then their attitude is "open" to something they want to see...and affirmation of the confirmation bias....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 minutes ago, end3 said:

The point I'm trying to make is the pigeons were fed, period, to later invoke a response.  We can't say this is true for prayer because we have no way of proving a person was initially "fed" from God. 

 

If you want an argument for prayer, it might be this:  If a person is prays then their attitude is "open" to something they want to see...and affirmation of the confirmation bias....

People have also been "fed"; coincidence has existed since time immemorial.   Randomly, both positive and negative coincidences occur; and there have been as many "answered" prayers as there have been positive coincidences.  So, unfortunately,  the pigeons were no more or less conditioned, than humans have been, since both species are part of the same nature and susceptible to the same random coincidences.  

[Guest end3]

16 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

People have also been "fed"; coincidence has existed since time immemorial.   Randomly, both positive and negative coincidences occur; and there have been as many "answered" prayers as there have been positive coincidences.  So, unfortunately,  the pigeons were no more or less conditioned, than humans have been, since both species are part of the same nature and susceptible to the same random coincidences.  

Ok, show me how God has randomly fed people...  The pigeons, food comes out of the feeder. 

[Guest end3]

53 minutes ago, end3 said:

Ok, show me how God has randomly fed people...  The pigeons, food comes out of the feeder. 

Oh come on....I'm helping y'all.  Where's the love....

[TruthSeeker0]

2 hours ago, end3 said:

Ok, show me how God has randomly fed people...  The pigeons, food comes out of the feeder. 

I can't believe this is even a question. Bwahahah. Things happen randomly in this universe. Aint no god got shit to do with it. Some call it luck or fate. You just happen to call it god.

[Guest end3]

19 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I can't believe this is even a question. Bwahahah. Things happen randomly in this universe. Aint no god got shit to do with it. Some call it luck or fate. You just happen to call it god.

Whoa whoa whoa....isn't this the entire ongoing diatribe from the website......"SHOW ME PROOF!!!".  Yeah, things happen randomly.  The pigeons get fed randomly invoking a response.  Show me where God has fed people to invoke ANY response.  And  y'all have the goddamn audacity to use this as an example..  If you would pull you head out ma'am, we could tout this as an equal example for God's existence. 

 

Also, none of you have a clue what ultimately would be random with respect to answered prayers. 

 

Please sthu unless you can use your brain.....PLEASE.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, end3 said:

Ok, show me how God has randomly fed people...  The pigeons, food comes out of the feeder. 

god's not real.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

12 hours ago, end3 said:

Whoa whoa whoa....isn't this the entire ongoing diatribe from the website......"SHOW ME PROOF!!!".  Yeah, things happen randomly.  The pigeons get fed randomly invoking a response.  Show me where God has fed people to invoke ANY response.  And  y'all have the goddamn audacity to use this as an example..  If you would pull you head out ma'am, we could tout this as an equal example for God's existence. 

 

Also, none of you have a clue what ultimately would be random with respect to answered prayers. 

 

Please sthu unless you can use your brain.....PLEASE.

Actually, we do.  Scientific studies have been attempted to demonstrate the efficacy of prayers.  If you have the courage to Google the results, you might learn what the rest of us already know.  If not, you can be the cowardly lion to the rest of us brainless strawmen (which, incidently, describes your counter-arguments quite well).  Now if only we had a tin man and a Dorothy... I'll pray about that.

[midniterider]

The pigeons that were doing the weird little dances had been slain in the spirit. They were Pigecostals.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, midniterider said:

The pigeons that were doing the weird little dances had been slain in the spirit. They were Pigecostals.

They also did experiments with evan-quail-icals. 

[quinntar]

I have a strange experience to relate.

 

About 2 months ago I was lying in bed late in the afternoon, then a feeling of what I could describe as a warm fuzzy feeling started burning in my heart. No more than 2-3 minute's later the phone rang, I answered it to a minister who said he thought to call me after he was praying for me.

 

After the call ended the feeling left me, then I thought on this experience for a while and figured prayer work's by sending signals to people.

 

Or I'm a empath