No Police brutality- No Racism=No Problem?

[Geezer]

COLIN KAEPERNICK has created quite a stir with his protest against social injustice. I have no problem with his protest, it's his Constitutional right to protest injustice, or what he perceives to be injustice. I'm find myself wondering if there isn't a much more serious and pressing problem though, that is being swept under the rug. 

 

Injustice is often in the eye of the beholder. One man's justice is another man's injustice. Police brutality is a legitimate issue and one that needs to be addressed but I don't think that is the most pressing problem in the black community. 

 

The casualty and the death rates for social injustice and police brutality pale in comparison to black on black shootings and fatalities.  Every day in this country many, many, black men, women, and children die at the hands of a black gunman. And it seems to have been put on the back burner by the civil rights activist, and I find myself wondering why. That is until I thought it through. 

 

This isn't a racists issues, it's black on black crime. It isn't a police brutality issue, it's black on black crime. It isn't a civil rights issue because there is no ethnic or government villain to persecute or more importantly to sue. No lawsuit, no money. Apparently if there is no possibility of monetary gain then the problem isn't worth the time, money, and effort it would take to try and solve it or at least significantly reduce the casualties.

 

It seems like every single day a young black man dies at the hands of another young black man near the major metropolitan city where I live. It is so common unless there are multiple deaths the local news doesn't even report it any more. Yesterday a school bus was shot at. A young female student was injured and taken to the hospital with non-life threatening injuries. Was that shooting intentional or, and probably more likely, the bus just happened to be in the line of fire. In all likelihood it was an attempted gang assassination that went badly. 

 

No one will be taking a knee this week at any NFL game protesting this senseless killing that plagues most cities, including rural communities now. It appears this problem has been relegated to the closet in the hope that people will continue to pretend that it isn't a major problem that is getting worse day by day. Many black communities are virtual war zones now with causalities that are exceeding actual war zones causalities and nobody seems to care. Why is that? 

 

 

[florduh]

There is crime, poverty, gangs and all that, but part of the problem feeding the hopelessness in some neighborhoods is institutionalized murder of blacks by our duly authorized officers of the peace. White folks don't seem too interested in reigning the cops, hence the attempt to draw attention to that particular issue. Maybe poverty and oppression creates the gang problem and resorting to violence out of frustration. Crazy, huh?

[1989]

I think it was a site affiliated with the Black Lives Matter movement that stated that with Black-on-Black crime people are generally caught and prosecuted.  When the police shoot someone they generally don't even get prosecuted at all, much less convicted.  It's this dichotomy that leads to protests and stuff.  Of course now that the African Americans have further lost faith in the police added to retribution for anyone who cooperates with them leads to crime waves in places like Chicago happening.  I don't see this getting better anytime soon.

[Geezer]

If police are killing young black men without cause, then the grand juries apparently are in on this conspiracy. Either that, or the actual  evidence indicates the officers actions were justifiable. Wow! Is that even a possibility?

 

My son was a reserve police officer in Charleston SC when he was in the Navy. I just found that out recently. He told me it didn't take him long to figure out he didn't want to be in law enforcement for a career. He's been a fireman for 21 years now & I am delighted he chose the fire dept for his career. 

 

Before you judge the police too harshly why not ask the local police dept. for a ride along in a patrol car,at night, in a high crime area. When you're judging someone else it's good to walk in their shoes for awhile and see what they are up against. I can't imagine why anyone would want to be a policeman in this day and age.

 

And all of what I just posted has nothing to do with black on black crime, which is the topic of this thread. 

[Geezer]

I do understand that many factors go into an individual forming their world view and personal experiences are a major contributor to that process. I also realize the actions of a few rotten apples is not indicative of the majority. 

 

The stats I've seen indicate black on black fatalities far exceed other forms of violent death in the black community. And this appears to be true in every major metropolitan city in the country and the death rate continues to climb. I am aware there is no single reason for this,  and some communities are attempting to address the problem. 

 

I've not seen any stats that indicate police actions & racism are the primary cause of these deaths by violance. It appears that guns are the primary cause of these deaths. And gang violance is the often the source of these deaths. 

 

Drugs are a contributing factor too, but I'm not listing OD's as death by a violent act. And death by drug OD crosses racial & economic lines. Obviously drugs are a huge problem for every community with no solution in sight. 

[♦ nivek ♦]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

There is crime, poverty, gangs and all that, but part of the problem feeding the hopelessness in some neighborhoods is institutionalized murder of blacks by our duly authorized officers of the peace. White folks don't seem too interested in reigning the cops, hence the attempt to draw attention to that particular issue. Maybe poverty and oppression creates the gang problem and resorting to violence out of frustration. Crazy, huh?

 

<Deleted an entire few paragraphs of contra-bullshit>

 

Christ on a broken set of crutches.

 

kFL

 

 

 

[florduh]

1 hour ago, Geezer said:

If police are killing young black men without cause, then the grand juries apparently are in on this conspiracy. Either that, or the actual  evidence indicates the officers actions were justifiable. Wow! Is that even a possibility?

 

My son was a reserve police officer in Charleston SC when he was in the Navy. I just found that out recently. He told me it didn't take him long to figure out he didn't want to be in law enforcement for a career. He's been a fireman for 21 years now & I am delighted he chose the fire dept for his career. 

 

Before you judge the police too harshly why not ask the local police dept. for a ride along in a patrol car,at night, in a high crime area. When you're judging someone else it's good to walk in their shoes for awhile and see what they are up against. I can't imagine why anyone would want to be a policeman in this day and age.

 

And all of what I just posted has nothing to do with black on black crime, which is the topic of this thread. 

 

To assume that all the unarmed blacks who get killed or have the shit beat out of them for a good reason requires a special kind of disconnect. There are tons of videos and otherwise reported stories involving unarmed, compliant and sometimes even restrained victims of police abuse and murder. I used to know a cop who talked about cruising the ape yards and rattling a few cages. Hello?

 

I was attempting to provide some contributing factors for rampant crime and violence in poor black neighborhoods. 

[Geezer]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

 

To assume that all the unarmed blacks who get killed or have the shit beat out of them for a good reason requires a special kind of disconnect. There are tons of videos and otherwise reported stories involving unarmed, compliant and sometimes even restrained victims of police abuse and murder. I used to know a cop who talked about cruising the ape yards and rattling a few cages. Hello?

 

I was attempting to provide some contributing factors for rampant crime and violence in poor black neighborhoods. 

 

I've read your posts for years now & I've considered you to be a pretty level headed intelligent guy. I don't recall you being as provocative as you've been in your recent post. You're making accusations that do not reflect the majority of situations, the way the average police officer responds to a call, or the reality of the level of gun violance in this country.

 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that body cams provide video evidence of what happens when an officer responds to a call. Those cams should go along way in protecting the citizen from an abusive cop & an officer from an out of control citizen. 

 

As as far as the rest of your thoughts, I will simply say we have had different life experiences. My life experiences do not coincide with your life experiences. I will say an incident occurred 2 blocks from my office a few years ago. Late at night a car was parked off the street in an odd place. People were in the car so an officer stopped to investigate. A drug deal was going down. When the officer approached the car one of the occupants shot him in the head killing him instantly.

 

I just wanted to point out how dangerous it is to be a police officer. I haven't kept track but I know a number of officers have been killed in the line of duty this year, and that isn't unusual. I'm just pointing out there are 2 sides to every story.

[Geezer]

5 hours ago, florduh said:

There is crime, poverty, gangs and all that, but part of the problem feeding the hopelessness in some neighborhoods is institutionalized murder of blacks by our duly authorized officers of the peace. White folks don't seem too interested in reigning the cops, hence the attempt to draw attention to that particular issue. Maybe poverty and oppression creates the gang problem and resorting to violence out of frustration. Crazy, huh?

 

Institional murder of blacks by police? A charge like that requires evidence. 

 

I have a close friend that taught school in the "hood" for 40 years. A good many of her students became very successful in life. Many others did not and ended up in prison. Their home environment had a lot to do with who succeeded and who didn't. 

 

Lack of an education and job skills will almost certainly guarantee a life of poverty and probably crime. Even the most dedicated teacher cannot achieve 100% success. Both the student and their parents have some personal responsibility in the learning process and as we all learn early on in life, "Life ain't fair". There will be winners and losers. 

[Geezer]

I will add this thought too. It seems that even those in poverty somehow manage to have an IPhone. The police are fully aware that it's highly likely someone is video taping them every time they respond to a call, especially in a high crime area. 

 

That is just one more protection a private citizen has against being assaulted by a rogue Police Officer. And I do acknowledge there are rogue police officers. Those need to be eliminated from the force. 

 

[1989]

5 hours ago, Geezer said:

If police are killing young black men without cause, then the grand juries apparently are in on this conspiracy. Either that, or the actual  evidence indicates the officers actions were justifiable. Wow! Is that even a possibility?

 

I don't think it's a conspiracy, but a general presumption of innocence coupled with a high-level of discretion allotted to police officers.  Why would a cop lie about his use of force?  Why would cops plant evidence?  Why do we need the Innocence Project?  Being a cop is dangerous, I get it.  But not every cop is innocent, even when a perp is resisting lethal force is supposed to be the last resource in their arsenals.  The police are people just like everyone else and eventually prone to mistakes, sometimes lethal ones, and they should be accountable on some level for it.

[Geezer]

5 minutes ago, 1989 said:

 

I don't think it's a conspiracy, but a general presumption of innocence coupled with a high-level of discretion allotted to police officers.  Why would a cop lie about his use of force?  Why would cops plant evidence?  Why do we need the Innocence Project?  Being a cop is dangerous, I get it.  But not every cop is innocent, even when a perp is resisting lethal force is supposed to be the last resource in their arsenals.  The police are people just like everyone else and eventually prone to mistakes, sometimes lethal ones, and they should be accountable on some level for it.

 

I agree. As you note not every cop is innocent, but that doesn't mean every cop is guilty either.  Guilt and innocence has to be decided on a case by case basis by virtue of the evidence. And I personally think the officer should get the benefit of the doubt when the evidence isn't crystal clear, but I can understand others might see that differently. 

 

These situations are not always black and white, there are often gray areas. I watch a lot of Datelines & 48 Hours & I'm often mystified by some of the verdicts juries come back with. Juries have been known to arrive at verdicts for reasons that have nothing to do with the evidence, or so it seems to me. 

 

Your reference to the innocence project has more to do with the interpretation & admittance of evidence & court proceedings than anything the police officer might have been involved in. The creditability of our court system & the admittance of evidence is a whole different issue and I have a lot of problems with all of that. What is or is not admissible evidence often determines the accused innocence or guilt. I have no doubt there are a lot of innocent people in prison, but that is a different issue.

[1989]

1 hour ago, Geezer said:

I agree. As you note not every cop is innocent, but that doesn't mean every cop is guilty either.  Guilt and innocence has to be decided on a case by case basis by virtue of the evidence. And I personally think the officer should get the benefit of the doubt when the evidence isn't crystal clear, but I can understand others might see that differently.  

 

Absolutely not every cop is guilty, and yes, the evidence should determine guilt or innocence.  But...

 

1 hour ago, Geezer said:

What is or is not admissible evidence often determines the accused innocence or guilt.

 

So the system can be rigged on technicalities.  I'm not entirely comfortable with the police policing their own, however.  If the police, the detectives, and the prosecutors are supposed to be on the same side, and one of them is guilty, well, I'd rather have an outside agency be the judge of who's done what.

 

I admit that there's a wave of mass hysteria when it comes to police shootings and abuse when it directly affects African-Americans.  Perceived systematic abuse has broken down common sense and observation when it comes from these things, especially from the Left, who seem to just want to stick it to "The Man".  Of course, the Right's explanation that the cops are never wrong isn't helpful either.

[Geezer]

I'm certain you are aware most police dept's have an Internal Affairs Dept that investigates charges of officer misconduct and/or illegal activities. Many also have a private citizens board that look into charges of office misconduct. 

 

In other words the police do police themselves and these are not sham investigations. Police Dept's don't want bad cops any more than the citizens do. IA officers are generally not popular with the regular officers. 

[1989]

I actually almost mentioned Internal Affairs in my previous post, but decided against it.  I know they're not popular, but I'm not at all familiar with the inner workings of an IA investigation or where (or to who) it leads.  I guess I don't live in a big enough community to get all that.  Our Police Chief was indicted on several drug charges, but he was our only cop at the time, so he got away with it for a while.  I think the city next door has a cop or two, and the one over from that has somewhere between 4 and 6.

[Geezer]

1 hour ago, 1989 said:

I actually almost mentioned Internal Affairs in my previous post, but decided against it.  I know they're not popular, but I'm not at all familiar with the inner workings of an IA investigation or where (or to who) it leads.  I guess I don't live in a big enough community to get all that.  Our Police Chief was indicted on several drug charges, but he was our only cop at the time, so he got away with it for a while.  I think the city next door has a cop or two, and the one over from that has somewhere between 4 and 6.

 

A separate IA dept is usually limited to large metropolitian police departments, but the local AG would normally investigate smaller police departments, or the State Police IA or similar dept would investigate small police dept.

 

In any case some independent authority would investigate charges of misconduct by a police officer. 

[Insightful]

Wow, so much can be said here.  First off, I appreciate everyone's genuine attempts to be civil and respectful of one another.  Second, I wonder if this should be moved to "off topic".  It's an important discussion, but I'm not seeing the tie-in to the ex-Christian experience;  both the original post and responses could offend people unnecessarily.

 

This topic is beyond loaded with all sorts of straw-man arguments (in general).  I hope we can all agree that:

 

1.  Not all police officers are racist persecutors of black people

 

2.  Some police officers have indeed displayed excessive and unwarranted brutality against black Americans that does indeed appear racially motivated or influenced.

 

3.  Not all black recipients of police brutality were innocent and complaint martyrs

 

4.  Many black recipients of police brutality were being compliant and/orwere falsely suspected of having a weapon, etc.

 

5. In the vast majority of cases police officers are honorable men and women, Heroes of our communities who risked their lives for the public well-being. Their lives are valuable.

 

6.  Black Americans have intrinsic dignity and worth by virtue of their Humanity.  It is imperative that they be afforded the full consideration given to humans of other races.  Their lives are valuable.

 

I hope that everyone regardless of which side they land on can agree with these basic principles.

 

Now I'll add my subjective opinion:

 

As a non-black person, which I also assume Geezer is (am i wrong?), I would definitely refrain from weighing in on what the most important issue is to the black community.  I think we non black people do best to listen and learn from the black community and Trust their own opinions regarding what issues matter most to them.

 

I do not have a lot of black friends, but I do have some.  And this issue of police brutality is very important to them.

 

Just like as a non gay person, I would have no business saying that the fight for marriage equality is not the most important issue in the gay community.

 

Ultimately I don't think it's about the NUMBER of people killed by police brutality versus the number of people killed by black on black crime.

 

It's about the outrage that any American would be treated differently based on the color of their skin - especially by those committed to upholding and enforcing Justice.

 

Everyday crime is indeed sad, unfortunate, and problematic.  But Racial Injustice is an affront to the essence of America.

 

 

 

 

 

[Geezer]

https://nypost.com/2017/09/26/all-that-kneeling-ignores-the-real-cause-of-soaring-black-homicides/

 

Black Lives Matter protests over the weekend.

Nearly 900 additional blacks were killed in 2016 compared with 2015, bringing the black homicide victim total to 7,881. Those 7,881 “black bodies,” in the parlance of Ta-Nehisi Coates, are 1,305 more than the number of white victims (which in this case includes most Hispanics) for the same period, though blacks are only 13 percent of the nation’s population.

The increase in black homicides last year comes on top of a previous 900-victim increase between 2014 and 2015.

Who is killing these black victims? Not whites, and not the police, but other blacks.

In 2016, the police fatally shot 233 blacks, the vast majority armed and dangerous, according to the Washington Post. The paper categorized only 16 black male victims of police shootings as “unarmed.” That classification masks assaults against officers and violent resistance to arrest.

Contrary to the Black Lives Matter narrative, the police have much more to fear from black males than black males have to fear from the police. In 2015, a police officer was 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male was to be killed by a police officer.

Black males have made up 42 percent of all cop-killers over the last decade, though they are only 6 percent of the population. That 18.5 ratio undoubtedly worsened in 2016, in light of the 53 percent increase in gun murders of officers — committed vastly and disproportionately by black males.

Among all homicide suspects whose race was known, white killers of blacks numbered only 243.

 

I realize there is an organized effort to refocus this narrative to police brutality and claim the number of unarmed blacks shot by police is grossly larger than the actual statistics report. I believe this is done intentionally for political reasons. Civil rights court cases produce both power and money. As I originally noted, black on black crime has no political significance. It certainly does not help the civil rights agenda. And that should be clearly apparent when the City of Chicago and it's current mayor are unbiasedly examined. 

 

The black neighborhoods in Chicago are a virtual war zone and killing ground and the mayor has "no comment". 

[florduh]

So this Dallas cop walks into the wrong apartment by mistake and kills the black guy who was living there. The Dallas police are investigating - - - the dead black guy.

 

Only the latest example of the mindset that creates conditions people want to protest and change. Cop just made an honest mistake but hey, that monkey must have been up to something, right?

[Geezer]

22 minutes ago, florduh said:

So this Dallas cop walks into the wrong apartment by mistake and kills the black guy who was living there. The Dallas police are investigating - - - the dead black guy.

 

Only the latest example of the mindset that creates conditions people want to protest and change. Cop just made an honest mistake but hey, that monkey must have been up to something, right?

 

The officer in question has been charged with manslaughter & I cannot imagine any possible way she will avoid going to prison. I think she is telling the truth about what happened, at least as she wants to remember it, but that doesn't matter.  Mistake or not she killed an innocent man and she will have to face the consequences for her actions. 

 

I was not aware that the Dallas Police are investigating the victim. That sounds like "fake" news. I can't imagine why they would do that. An unarmed man in his own apartment, what possible grounds would they have to investigate him? I would like to know the source of that story. 

[Jagdish]

She kept telling the 911 operator how very tired she was. If I were that exhausted I would have been relieved to get to my floor and not gone up one extra.

[Jagdish]

On 9/14/2018 at 8:28 AM, Geezer said:

 

I was not aware that the Dallas Police are investigating the victim. That sounds like "fake" news. I can't imagine why they would do that. An unarmed man in his own apartment, what possible grounds would they have to investigate him? I would like to know the source of that story. 

Yes the Dallas cops "investigated" his apartment and made a big deal of the fact that they found marijuana therein. This from the Washington Post 

DEVELOPING,” read a tweet from the local Dallas Fox affiliate. “Search warrant: Marijuana found in Botham Jean’s apartment after deadly shooting.”   The news and the tweet, which received criticism online, had nothing to do with why Jean was killed the night of Sept. 6. But the situation was also familiar, another example of how unarmed black men who are victims in police shootings are defamed and made to look like criminals even in death as police investigations unfold, said Lee Merritt, a civil rights attorney who represents Jean’s family.

 

 

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, Jagdish said:

Yes the Dallas cops "investigated" his apartment and made a big deal of the fact that they found marijuana therein. This from the Washington Post 

DEVELOPING,” read a tweet from the local Dallas Fox affiliate. “Search warrant: Marijuana found in Botham Jean’s apartment after deadly shooting.”   The news and the tweet, which received criticism online, had nothing to do with why Jean was killed the night of Sept. 6. But the situation was also familiar, another example of how unarmed black men who are victims in police shootings are defamed and made to look like criminals even in death as police investigations unfold, said Lee Merritt, a civil rights attorney who represents Jean’s family.

 

 

 

Cops may find lots of marijuana in people's homes in Nevada since it's legal. Not a reason to kill them, though. 

[trashy]

On 9/11/2018 at 10:06 AM, Geezer said:

The casualty and the death rates for social injustice and police brutality pale in comparison to black on black shootings and fatalities.  Every day in this country many, many, black men, women, and children die at the hands of a black gunman. And it seems to have been put on the back burner by the civil rights activist, and I find myself wondering why. That is until I thought it through. 

oh good god...

 

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/23/white-supremacists-favorite-myths-about-black-crime-rates-take-another-hit-bjs-study