LostinParis Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 “God cannot be judged by human standards.” “Our finite human minds are incapable of understanding the infinite.” These Christian non-answers and loopholes are often thrown at me to shut down my questioning. And it works. How best should I respond? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Tell them it's a load of crap. Because any self-respecting person who reads the OT will conclude that that god is sadistic, cruel, and misogynistic and won't worship them anymore. If they do, they've abandoned any sense of innate morality and gone along with the crowd think and easy answers. That's what I would tell them. If they insist, I quote Dan Barker: “I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being.” 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 24, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted September 24, 2018 If we are in his image, the it follows that he is also in our image. Just saying, "It's a God thing, you wouldn't understand" is lame beyond belief. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted September 25, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted September 25, 2018 god's Mighty Plan for Salvation makes it pretty clear that god does not understand us either. Therefore, he is in no position to judge us. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 On 9/25/2018 at 11:04 AM, LostinParis said: “God cannot be judged by human standards.” “Our finite human minds are incapable of understanding the infinite.” ...... your answer is in that exact statement! If our minds are that finite that we have no capability of understanding the infinite ... we therefore have no knowledge of who or what god is ... NEITHER DO THEY! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorPoet Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 This won’t work on all christians that try those loopholes, because they all believe in their own versions of christianity, but it can be helpful. If they are the type that would claim that “we have morality because god wrote his moral code in our hearts” or something similar, then you can tell them that you are perfectly qualified to judge god because you are doing so according to his own standard. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 I like to reference the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and suggest that all of humanity now has an inalienable right to judge anything and everything, including gods. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConsiderTheSource Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 Why do we keep on meeting them on their playfield????? Come on people! Item 1. Provide proof of existance. Item 2. So what? We are best off understanding as much as we can. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToHellWithMe Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 You cannot really trump them without making up similar lies. On the other hand, if you accuse them of making things up, the question is why do you argue with someone who isn't acting in good faith? You have to step above that. Like, plead on meta level: "don't you see how that's a bit unfair?" Of course there are cards to play against that as well. Etc, etc. Just give up and simply state your own beliefs. Who says you have to defend them? Just state them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostinParis Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 4 hours ago, Realist said: ...... you answer is in that exact statement! If our minds are that finite we have no capability of understanding the infinite ... we therefore have no knowledge of who or what god is ... NEITHER DO THEY! Yes! They say that nobody is able to know the mind of god but are quite sure that he hates homosexuals. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 8 hours ago, LostinParis said: “God cannot be judged by human standards.” “Our finite human minds are incapable of understanding the infinite.” ... this also reminds me of Christopher Hitchen's quote: "All we know is how little we know. That's been for many years my definition of an educated person." I would suggest to them that IF there is such a thing as a personal god that they know, they have such an obnoxiously high opinion of themselves ... they know this one true god .. the one who helps them score goals in football ... when they pray to him has an interest whether they pass an exam for instance, when he does not give one flying fuck about a poor starved child somewhere on this planet about to die through starvation and malnutrition! It is not hard to see their god is one made in man's own image and passed on through indoctrination! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostinParis Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 3 hours ago, WarriorPoet said: This won’t work on all christians that try those loopholes, because they all believe in their own versions of christianity, but it can be helpful. If they are the type that would claim that “we have morality because god wrote his moral code in our hearts” or something similar, then you can tell them that you are perfectly qualified to judge god because you are doing so according to his own standard. I love this answer! If god created us then surely our sense of right and wrong came from him. Therefore he is liable by these same standards. Unless one believes in Divine Command Theory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 9 hours ago, florduh said: If we are in his image, the it follows that he is also in our image. Just saying, "It's a God thing, you wouldn't understand" is lame beyond belief. He he he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 10 hours ago, LostinParis said: “God cannot be judged by human standards.” “Our finite human minds are incapable of understanding the infinite.” These Christian non-answers and loopholes are often thrown at me to shut down my questioning. And it works. How best should I respond? Shove your fingers in your ear's & sing la de da do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 13 hours ago, LostinParis said: “God cannot be judged by human standards.” “Our finite human minds are incapable of understanding the infinite.” These Christian non-answers and loopholes are often thrown at me to shut down my questioning. And it works. How best should I respond? The god virus has these defense mechanisms, they may be the lamest of cop outs but they get the job done. I would probably proceed by asking "if the human mind is incapable of understanding the infinite then how do you presume to know god's plan for your life and humanity". Likely they'll respond by referring to the bible which you counter by asking how they understand that too. This will either land you in an infinite loop ("the bible is the word of god, I know god by the bible") or you will corner them far enough where they will rage quit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
older Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 On 9/25/2018 at 5:43 AM, RealityCheck said: Likely they'll respond by referring to the bible which you counter by asking how they understand that too. And you can remind them that the Devil also quotes the scriptures, so how do they know they are following the right one? Perhaps Christianity is a construct of the Devil and the true religion is something else. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 Want to shut them down? Try this: You’re right! I can’t judge something that does not exist. 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 On 9/24/2018 at 4:04 PM, LostinParis said: “God cannot be judged by human standards.” “Our finite human minds are incapable of understanding the infinite.” These Christian non-answers and loopholes are often thrown at me to shut down my questioning. And it works. How best should I respond? "Fuck Off!" generally works well for me.... kevinL 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 On 9/24/2018 at 4:58 PM, florduh said: If we are in his image, the it follows that he is also in our image. Just saying, "It's a God thing, you wouldn't understand" is lame beyond belief. Is this why we find ourselves/god in jail so often? What's it take to bail Haysus out? Wait if he gets cut loose, why am I still here? Fuck this "..with you in the spirit shit!" Haysus, Hep me! Oh, he is a ghost, nevermind.... Florduh, send bail money! kevin,broke'nincarcerated4dumbinpublik,L 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedouin Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 We can only judge our actions by the impact they have on ourselves and others. That’s all we have. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1989 Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 On 9/24/2018 at 11:57 PM, Astreja said: I like to reference the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and suggest that all of humanity now has an inalienable right to judge anything and everything, including gods. I would argue that not only do we have the right to judge, but the capability as well, as we know good and evil as well as God does. On 9/25/2018 at 3:27 AM, LostinParis said: I love this answer! If god created us then surely our sense of right and wrong came from him. Therefore he is liable by these same standards. Unless one believes in Divine Command Theory... Believe it or not, this was the straw that broke the camel's back of my deconversion. Again, we know good and evil, and can point out evil in the face of God, such as it is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 Tell your Christian friends to continually and sincerely pray for an objective understanding of God and religion, while launching into to a years long study of the history of both, getting information from the internet, as well as information from their church. Then come back and talk to you. They will likely decide they don't want to do that. If so, ask them why not? Are they afraid of what they will find? My turning point was when I prayed to find the truth through my own study, no matter where it led me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawthorne Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 On 9/24/2018 at 7:04 PM, LostinParis said: “God cannot be judged by human standards.” “Our finite human minds are incapable of understanding the infinite.” These Christian non-answers and loopholes are often thrown at me to shut down my questioning. And it works. How best should I respond? This person needs to realize that the burden of proof that his god exists is on his shoulders. There are hundreds of god candidates out there. Why should I believe that his version of god is the true one. If there is a God--and I have seen no convincing evidence that there is--and this God has a message for me, he would make sure that I get it clearly and with no reason to doubt, as only God could do. I think this quote from Richard Carrier pretty much nails it: If God wants something from me, he would tell me. He wouldn't leave someone else to do this, as if an infinite being were short on time. And he would certainly not leave fallible, sinful humans to deliver an endless plethora of confused and contradictory messages. God would deliver the message himself, directly, to each and every one of us, and with such clarity as the most brilliant being in the universe could accomplish. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 On 9/24/2018 at 6:04 PM, LostinParis said: “God cannot be judged by human standards.” “Our finite human minds are incapable of understanding the infinite.” These Christian non-answers and loopholes are often thrown at me to shut down my questioning. And it works. How best should I respond? Tell them that their statement is nothing but a tactic to shut down conversation. It's equivalent to saying "just shut up and quit thinking." Tell them that they need to go away and read the Bible from beginning to end and notice how the god changes from the beginning to the end, how they've been taught their whole lives to impose their New Testament beliefs on the Old Testament, and once they've read it then maybe they'll be able to have a reasonable conversation. Turn it around on them -- shut them down by pointing out that their answers are non-answers and that until they've done some reasoning they aren't worth talking to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 On 9/24/2018 at 7:04 PM, LostinParis said: “God cannot be judged by human standards.” “Our finite human minds are incapable of understanding the infinite.” These Christian non-answers and loopholes are often thrown at me to shut down my questioning. And it works. How best should I respond? This is actually a valid argument. There is absolutely no reason that we should expect to be able to understand God, His mind, His will, His plan, or anything else about Him. But it works both ways. Christianity is specifically a claim to know the will of God. Hence, on this line of reasoning, there can never be any reason to think that it is correct. So much, then, for Christianity. 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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