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Franklin Graham: Attempted rape not a crime. Kavanaugh "respected" his victim by not finishing.

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4 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

You realize it was the state controlling speech in Germany right? The same thing you are advocating which is give the state power to control speech.

That relates exactly to my point, that those with power will control the message.

This is a tough area, because the intent in implementing this legislation is crucial. If the protection of core rights that we recognize today in most western societies (ie those for example in the canadian charter of rights) is the intent of legislation, I would argue the intent is justified. They key point is, what is the intent of the legislation. Is the intent of the legislation to prevent the dissemination of clearly hateful information that seeks to destroy the rights of some group of people? Or is the intent of the legislation to privilege the rights of some people and limit those of others?

Ultimately, the implementation of such legislation only works in a system where there are checks and balances on a democratic government. And where there is clear legislation determining when speech becomes harassment or assault etc.

I actually prefer what New Zealand has adopted in regards to harassment or assault. If someone wants to get in your face in a public space and tell you your rights don't matter, you're a piece of scum and you're going to hell etc, and they continue to verbally assault you and don't shut up after you've told them to walk, then they can live with the consequences as outlined in the legislation.

 

4 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I'm all for curbing hateful speech but who's deciding this? Until someone can identify a decent system that only curbs objectively hateful speech, and not criticism, then giving too much power to the state to ban what you don't like or find offensive is dangerous. That's exactly how religions maintain control - curb criticism by saying anything detrimental said about the religion is to be punished.

 

However we gone clean off topic here and we clearly don't see eye to eye on speech, even though we agree that it would be desirable to eliminate hate speech if possible.

 

Back to the harassment issue, how would you see anti speech laws working? Do you make it illegal to compliment a woman by telling her she looks beautiful? You run into a raft of problems. One you can say that and it just be a genuine compliment certainly not deserving of punishment, and two you could say it in a manner that is totally creepy. How to distinguish? Also some, maybe a lot of women like to have compliments thrown their way - make it illegal and you are depriving them too. This goes for any speech that anyone wants banned. There are many complex factors, and many solutions lead straight to the road to no speech unless state sanctioned. 

It's complicated, and for that reason I think legislation in regards to what constitutes harassment or assault makes more sense. I'd reiterate what i said above about hate speech legislation and the protection of rights. Yes, freedom of speech is a right, but I think hate speech legislation, with the intent of protecting rights, also serves this purpose and limits the abuse of freedom of speech, to pursue an agenda that seeks to undermine the rights of others.

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The saddest part about this whole ordeal is that it has revealed just how many people don't understand the point of the presumption of evidence. People seem to think it's some kind of dichotomy, where we are forced to assume that either all accusers are liars or all the accused are guilty before any trial takes place. Because the neutral stance of "We don't know until evidence is examined." apparently doesn't exist. Because, you know, it's not like investigation before conclusion is the basis of all post-enlightenment era scientific inquiry or anything oh wait it fucking is.

 

And then the media is fully complacent in this idiocracy. With supposedly respectable journal outlets such as Washington Post publishing articles that can be summarized as "Zomg!!11oneone!!! Kavanaugh refused to give a straight answer to a loaded gatcha question!!! He guilty!!!oneone111!!" and then some right wing forums posting nonsense such as "ZOMG DR FORD WAS HYPNOTIZED!!!!!". It's like the entire collective of humanity has lost all sense of reason.

 

The saddest part is, we fucking know better. When it comes to legit any other crime, such as burglary or whatever, people are fully capable of understanding that we don't raise our pitchforks until we know who stole the cookie from the cookie jar. It's just with sex-related crimes in the brink of self-destructive gender identity politics ( I refuse to call it feminism. Feminism is a dead movement that no longer exists. ) we seem to think that it's either #BelieveAllWomen or #AllWomenAreLying.

 

What the hell happened to #BelieveEvidence?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jedah said:

What the hell happened to #BelieveEvidence?

In this case, politics under the Trump reign happened. They weren't interested in any kind of investigation or evidence.

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Speaking of evidence - this  libertarian blog article was most interesting. I specifically mention libertarian because sadly if it was from any remotely left wing source then "#Fakenews" would probably be the response.

 

I've mentioned before I'm on the fence with BK vs Ford. After  reading this blog, assuming everything could be fact checked I'd be much more on Fords side.

 

https://www.fff.org/2018/10/09/christine-fords-corroborating-evidence/

 

@Jedah You spoke of evidence. What are your thoughts after reading the blog? (Also considering the only other 'witness' was BK's best friend so not exactly an unbiased witness.)

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3 hours ago, Jedah said:

The saddest part about this whole ordeal is that it has revealed just how many people don't understand the point of the presumption of evidence.

 

Did you mean presumption of innocence? 

 

Another observation I had: a Supreme Court hearing is not a trial, yet people were acting as if this one was. So what is a Senate "hearing" anyway? The Senators are supposed to simply ask the nominee some questions and then vote based on those answers. If they don't like the answers, they vote no for confirmation. It isn't complicated. 

 

Ford made an accusation that was utterly unprovable even within a trial setting

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26 minutes ago, Blood said:

Ford made an accusation that was utterly unprovable even within a trial setting

 

This is true. Even with corroborating evidence there still wasn't enough to convict BK beyond reasonable doubt. This leads me to a societal issue I've been thinking about, and one for which I have no solution. How many people do face situations like Fords? Lets assume for arguments sake that she is telling the truth. We are 'God' and we know BK attempted to rape her. No witnesses that will stand for her, not enough evidence to probably even bring a trial. To bring a trial you must have enough evidence that any reasonable person should be able to declare a person guilty or not guilty. So our problem is that we have a crime, but no way to prove it, and no way to get justice for the victim. And I find myself thinking how often does this happen? How many people don't report rape simply because they know how the system works and that they have no evidence with which to bring a case. A flaw in our justice system perhaps? Doe's this justify public courts, when all you can do, assuming again it actually happened, is essentially do your own trial by public opinion. I sympathise with those caught in such a situation, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to say, yes that's ok in that case, for fear of the wider damage allowing false accusations to get a life of its own.

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49 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

This is true. Even with corroborating evidence there still wasn't enough to convict BK beyond reasonable doubt. This leads me to a societal issue I've been thinking about, and one for which I have no solution. How many people do face situations like Fords? Lets assume for arguments sake that she is telling the truth. We are 'God' and we know BK attempted to rape her. No witnesses that will stand for her, not enough evidence to probably even bring a trial. To bring a trial you must have enough evidence that any reasonable person should be able to declare a person guilty or not guilty. So our problem is that we have a crime, but no way to prove it, and no way to get justice for the victim. And I find myself thinking how often does this happen? How many people don't report rape simply because they know how the system works and that they have no evidence with which to bring a case. A flaw in our justice system perhaps? Doe's this justify public courts, when all you can do, assuming again it actually happened, is essentially do your own trial by public opinion. I sympathise with those caught in such a situation, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to say, yes that's ok in that case, for fear of the wider damage allowing false accusations to get a life of its own.

This is the problem we face today, with most rape and sexual assault cases. And this is why most victims suffer in silence, and most do not get justice. In some countries, this is also a cultural issue, in that if the woman brings it up, shame and guilt are heaped on her and she's called a whore etc, and in some cases her own family may abandon her as a result. Cultural and societal factors also enable rape.

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5 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

This is the problem we face today, with most rape and sexual assault cases.

 

I'm not sure if you can state its most cases. I was thinking the situation with no corroborating evidence is less common than ones with evidence. Rape, at least in the US, is prosecuted at the same rates as many other violent crimes meaning a lot of rapists are caught and charged. A major problem is not coming forward at the time, and another major problem will be in Ford's situation as teens where they are probably less likely for various reasons to report it to anyone (Even parents).


 

Quote

 

And this is why most victims suffer in silence, and most do not get justice.


 

 

Again the term "most" needs quantifying. Most based on what? If most victims suffer in silence then we don't know how many there actually are because they are silent. 

 

5 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

In some countries, this is also a cultural issue, in that if the woman brings it up, shame and guilt are heaped on her and she's called a whore etc, and in some cases her own family may abandon her as a result. Cultural and societal factors also enable rape.

 

Yes but that's far less the case in Western Societies than in say India which has horrific rape rates and a worse culture surrounding rape. If you want to know what an actual rape culture looks like look at India. Some Middle Eastern and African countries are not far behind.

 

However if you gave most friends, family, etc of rape victims in the west permission, they wouldn't blame the rape victim they would beat the snot out of the rapist. Or at least here in NZ that's the case.

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I think people are still confused about what happened. There is no presumption of innocence in a job interview. Sure, the allegations might not have been provable in a trial,  although we'll never really know,  because a proper investigation was not done. But that does not matter. The way he reacted in itself should disqualify him from the supreme court. As should the fact that he clearly lied to the senate on multiple occasions.

 

The allegations are concerning,  but not proven.  Granted.  He still should not have been confirmed. But what do I know?

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There is so much naivete in here.  People assume that someone who seeks high office is supposed to be perfect, and that is ludicrous. They believe a purely partisan accuser with ZERO evidence, and because her story fits their narrative and agenda, well, she must be believed under any and all circumstances. Ya'll need to GET A LIFE. 

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On October 1, 2018 at 11:56 AM, TruthSeeker0 said:

You are so out of touch with how the world is for women today on the public streets and in public areas, let alone private ones, that it's rather hilarious. Also, stop making claims like "majority" - you have no evidence.

Rape laws and the effectiveness of rape laws are two very different things.

 

My daughter has a handgun carry permit. When she goes for a run she is armed. It's an unfortunate reality of the times. I would recommend single women that date, run, or go for walks take steps to protect themselves whether you do so alone or with someone else. 

 

I read today a female employee at a Starbucks was attacked by a customer and severely beaten. Another customer was armed     and killed the attacker. It was ruled a justifiable shooting. If you have no way to defend yourself you become a victim. 

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2 hours ago, Geezer said:

 

My daughter has a handgun carry permit. When she goes for a run she is armed. It's an unfortunate reality of the times. I would recommend single women that date, run, or go for walks take steps to protect themselves whether you do so alone or with someone else. 

 

I read today a female employee at a Starbucks was attacked by a customer and severely beaten. Another customer was armed     and killed the attacker. It was ruled a justifiable shooting. If you have no way to defend yourself you become a victim. 

 Why is the onus on women to protect themselves and make sure they're not stuck in situations with men that are potentially dangerous? Why is the onus not on educating men and changing this male culture that objectifies women, making sure they get the message that abuse/harassment/rape isn't acceptable? Take the problem at its root and fix it. Yes, there are men that will always abuse regardless. But there are also many that are influenced by the myriad messages of society and culture, those sent by the current President himself. As long as society continues to question why a woman went out to have fun, got drunk, and got raped because she couldn't defend herself, and blames her for being in that situation instead of the male who actually raped her, we have a problem.

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7 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Again the term "most" needs quantifying. Most based on what? If most victims suffer in silence then we don't know how many there actually are because they are silent.

Fine, we shall insert little/some/many in all of the above, based on personal perspective/opinion/stats/whatever.

I choose many, because I speak from personal experience as a woman. I wasn't referring to rape alone. There is a lot of stuff that falls in the assault category. Groping for one thing is common, and it happens in the most mundane of circumstances, like having your butt grabbed from behind in a cemetery in the dead of winter, by a passing cyclist. Or having the guy next to you on the train place his hand on your leg as if it's of no consequence. A good many of us women pass these off of as nothing worth reporting, and I'd bet the majority of us do, because it's just seen to be 'silly'. The level of tolerance women have for this kind of behaviour, letting it pass, is way up there. And because guys get a pass on this, I'd venture to say a good many of these dudes then test the boundaries and see what else they can get away with as a result.  In this discussion people are pointing out there are different levels of severity of assault. Yes, there are, and I recognize that. But the problem I see is that there isn't only a need to penalize the severe ones, there is a need for men to recognize that verbally harassing, assaulting, or raping women is part of a wider problem that needs attention. Yes, there are many of you here who are all too aware of this. It's the DJ Trumps of the day that need this education.

7 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Yes but that's far less the case in Western Societies than in say India which has horrific rape rates and a worse culture surrounding rape. If you want to know what an actual rape culture looks like look at India. Some Middle Eastern and African countries are not far behind.

This is the equivalent of saying, look, it's worse elsewhere, therefore we don't have a problem. Maybe you didn't intend it that way, but that's how it's coming across. As it stands now, we have a problem with a good many men (again, insert your own perspective here regarding 'many') in western society understanding where the boundary is.

7 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

However if you gave most friends, family, etc of rape victims in the west permission, they wouldn't blame the rape victim they would beat the snot out of the rapist. Or at least here in NZ that's the case.

That's fine. I was pointing out that there are cultural differences, not making a case that it's the same everywhere. 

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Leave it to Vagina Nazis to take a horrific act and turn it into a political weapon and use it as a threat whether it happened or not.  By their definition all men are guilty.  

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4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

 Why is the onus on women to protect themselves and make sure they're not stuck in situations with men that are potentially dangerous? Why is the onus not on educating men and changing this male culture that objectifies women, making sure they get the message that abuse/harassment/rape isn't acceptable? Take the problem at its root and fix it. Yes, there are men that will always abuse regardless. But there are also many that are influenced by the myriad messages of society and culture, those sent by the current President himself. As long as society continues to question why a woman went out to have fun, got drunk, and got raped because she couldn't defend herself, and blames her for being in that situation instead of the male who actually raped her, we have a problem.

 

That is simply not the reality of the world. Most men are good guys that deeply respect women. There is a small minority that doesn't think that way and they are dangerous. Ultimately, as I noted, it comes down to each and every single citizen choosing to protect themselves or become defensely victims. That is unfortunate, but it is also reality. 

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8 minutes ago, Geezer said:

 

That is simply not the reality of the world. Most men are good guys that deeply respect women. . 

 

Again we run into the problem of quantifying "most". How do we know this is the case? I think it's intuitively true and I tend to agree but at the moment we have claims of most men that and most woman this and it's all based on personal extrapolated experience, intuition and inference. I think this is a major factor in differences in opinions on this wider topic. 

 

We all agree rape is bad but we don't agree on how big a problem it is simply because we don't have and probably can't get accurate data at this stage.

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3 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Again we run into the problem of quantifying "most". How do we know this is the case? I think it's intuitively true and I tend to agree but at the moment we have claims of most men that and most woman this and it's all based on personal extrapolated experience, intuition and inference. I think this is a major factor in differences in opinions on this wider topic. 

 

We all agree rape is bad but we don't agree on how big a problem it is simply because we don't have and probably can't get accurate data at this stage.

Maybe try actually listening to women then, instead of intuitively tending to agree with men. Women can talk until they are blue in the face on this topic but it doesn't make any difference. Maybe the only option we do have after all is just banding together as women, and getting mad about it, and protesting etc, because it does appear that things fall on deaf ears, (or if not deaf ears, then ones that ask for evidence, and since there is no evidence, disbelief).  It's an area where I'm incredibly cynical of any cultural/societal change actually occurring, for these very reasons. It seems it's too much to demand respect for our bodies. And again, I say that based on experience. Anyway, this is a topic over which I get sarcastic and upset quite frequently, so I'm moving on.

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27 minutes ago, Geezer said:

 

That is simply not the reality of the world. Most men are good guys that deeply respect women. There is a small minority that doesn't think that way and they are dangerous. Ultimately, as I noted, it comes down to each and every single citizen choosing to protect themselves or become defensely victims. That is unfortunate, but it is also reality. 

Sheesh. Men, once again telling women what is and isn't their reality. Enough already. I'm done here.

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On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 1:23 PM, TruthSeeker0 said:

You actually don't have a right and aren't entitled to speak for what women experience, because you aren't women.

That is a terrible argument.  Firstly in the Western world we absolutely have the right to talk on any subject, you don't have authority to block discussion based on gender.

Second, if you actually want to make a change, educate men and push that cultural shift, then throwing out statements that cut half the population out of the conversation doesn't achieve that goal.  We need more conversations not less.

Third, Your life experience makes you an expert only on you.  Women are unique individuals with a vast diverse array of values, beliefs, education, strengths and weaknesses, so your personal experience will not match all woman purely based on your gender.

Fourth, the whole statement seems very contradictory in that one moment you are happy to say exactly what men think, feel and why the act the way they do, then in the next say you can't understand a gender if you aren't part of that gender.  If you believe that then it should go both ways.

Fifth, to base an ethical discussion on being part of the group or unable to talk about it just doesn't practically work.  Ever owned slaves?  Can't talk about that.  Ever been part of the Nazi party?  Well then you don't have the right to talk about that.

 

My take away from this conversation is that you can't base the truth on emotion.  Emotions are great for empathy and human bonding, but in a legal or policy discussion they lead to anger at the world.  If you don't have a target of your feelings of lack of control, helplessness and fear then you end up lashing out indiscriminately.  This is worse for everyone, in that every guy is looked at as a potential predator while every woman is seen as a potential victim.

Emotion makes you believe anecdotal evidence and jump to conclusions based on limited knowledge.  It makes you more easily fooled by scams, frauds and supernatural claims.  "He seemed such a genuine guy, really believed what he spoke about.  Why would I disbelieve his testimony?"  or "the poor woman is heart broken because her child is autistic, she blames vaccines and who could argue with a victim of big pharma like that?"

So far I've not seen any practical suggestions as to what should be done to change society in a positive way.  Ideas like making hate speech/offensive language illegal always fall at the most basic questions (how do you define the term?  Who gets to choose?  What is the punishment?). 

 

The only idea that I've pushed is more discussions, more conversations and thereby more education.  I believe we are already heading that way with the media attention focused on sexual crime issues but we will likely see people going too far in both directions before we manage to settle on a more reasonable middle ground.  We have to demand that evidence is required but that doesn't mean victims are not believed only that we understand we cannot convict without evidence.  Women need to report crimes as soon as they happen and to feel supported in doing so, and in turn guys need to know that they will be treated as innocent until proven guilty.

With the reducing crime rates, increasing awareness and increasing education I believe we are already heading in the right direction.  Perhaps I'm just an optimist?

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6 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Sheesh. Men, once again telling women what is and isn't their reality. Enough already. I'm done here.

 

I get it. You hate men. I'm sure you have reasons for your hatred of men. I am truly sorry for whatever has caused you to feel so negative about men. 

 

I can tell you, from a male perspective, you women aren't a bundle of joy to be around 23/7 365 days a year either. 

 

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6 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Again we run into the problem of quantifying "most". How do we know this is the case? 

 

There is a difference between speaking in generalities and summerizing well researched data and submitting that data as fact. It seems to me, but I admit I haven't run the numbers, that most (there is that word again)  of the posts on this site are opinion based. When that is not the case the poster normally (another bad word choice) would reference a particular scholar or scholars and a specific book, paper, or theory that is intended to validate the posters POV or beliefs.

 

Therefore, when I say "most" I am intentionally generalizing what is essentially a personal opinion, thought, or POV. It is really not necessary to point out that my statement isn't accurate, because it should be obvious that I am simply expressing a personal opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 10/12/2018 at 12:12 AM, Geezer said:

 

I get it. You hate men. I'm sure you have reasons for your hatred of men. I am truly sorry for whatever has caused you to feel so negative about men. 

 

I can tell you, from a male perspective, you women aren't a bundle of joy to be around 23/7 365 days a year either. 

 

You know, I actually wouldn't presume to know anything about the male experience of things, nor how the majority of women treat men, the level of respect they have for men, and how deeply they respect them. Simply because I'm not a male, therefore how can I speak to their experience? But feel free to behave that way if you want. 

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5 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

You know, I actually wouldn't presume to know anything about the male experience of things, nor how the majority of women treat men, the level of respect they have for men, and how deeply they respect them. Simply because I'm not a male, therefore how can I speak to their experience? But feel free to behave that way if you want. 

 

Having been married to the same woman for 53 years,  as well as being the father of a daughter, I have gained some insight into the workings of the female mind. 

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19 minutes ago, Geezer said:

 

Having been married to the same woman for 53 years,  as well as being the father of a daughter, I have gained some insight into the workings of the female mind. 

 

Geezer,

 

In her mind, you are white and male, therefore you are automatically ignorant, even when you're not.  Wonder what color of cat she has to keep her company?  😻

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