Recurring fears

[Stargazer95]

1 hour ago, Kat34 said:

I’m easily triggered by things like knowing that there are very intelligent people who believe this stuff wholeheartedly or that there are atheists who become Christians etc. 

 

A person's intelligence says nothing about whether the beliefs they hold are true or not. An intelligent person can still hold silly beliefs, especially if said beliefs were ingrained into them from childhood. A lot of these intelligent people were just as indoctrinated as us, and so they carry those religious beliefs into their adulthood without ever giving them a second thought. 

 

Also, not all atheists convert to Christianity because of intellectual reasons. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the number is pretty low, though I don't have any statistics. But there are a whole bunch of reasons why a person, atheist or not, might become a Christian. Again, it doesn't matter who becomes a Christian or how intelligent is the person who holds those beliefs. What matters is the beliefs themselves and how they hold up to scrutiny. 

 

But I do get your fear. And it's incredibly sad and infuriating that religion has brainwashed us in this way, that we're scared of an invisible being and what he might do to us for not believing in him, even though he's given us no reason to believe in him. Unfortunately it will probably take a while to de-ingrain your ingrained beliefs. You're just gonna have to hang in there. And that goes for me also. 

[TruthSeeker0]

1 hour ago, Stargazer95 said:

 

A person's intelligence says nothing about whether the beliefs they hold are true or not. An intelligent person can still hold silly beliefs, especially if said beliefs were ingrained into them from childhood. A lot of these intelligent people were just as indoctrinated as us, and so they carry those religious beliefs into their adulthood without ever giving them a second thought. 

 

Also, not all atheists convert to Christianity because of intellectual reasons. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the number is pretty low, though I don't have any statistics. But there are a whole bunch of reasons why a person, atheist or not, might become a Christian. Again, it doesn't matter who becomes a Christian or how intelligent is the person who holds those beliefs. What matters is the beliefs themselves and how they hold up to scrutiny. 

 

But I do get your fear. And it's incredibly sad and infuriating that religion has brainwashed us in this way, that we're scared of an invisible being and what he might do to us for not believing in him, even though he's given us no reason to believe in him. Unfortunately it will probably take a while to de-ingrain your ingrained beliefs. You're just gonna have to hang in there. And that goes for me also. 

@Kat34Just hang in there and have patience. One thing that helps when you're triggered is remembering exactly what @Stargazer95has said here, that just because intelligent people believe in Christianity, does not make it true. Intelligent people through the ages have been duped one way or another, and it has no bearing on reality. Ultimately, people believe because they have incentive to believe, ie they would rather believe they are going to exist in the hereafter than not exist. Or then, they don't believe but hide this non belief, and remain part of the church due to the social support it gives, or because of family etc.

[Kat34]

Thanks guys, I’ll try to keep those thoughts in mind. 

As someone who never really felt god for myself, I can find it hard to identify with those who genuinely felt in relationship with Jesus. Those of you who were Christians for many years, did you feel at the time that you were truly experiencing him or were you just going through the motions? If you really felt you were in a relationship with the living god, what was the main thing that led you on the path out of faith?

[TerryZZJones]

Hello,

 

I am new to this forum and site but I am not new to the concepts of how Church is able to abuse people.

 

Your situation is completely understandable and I agree.

 

Church causes such strife in people this way and this is part of the trap of Jesuit faith.

 

Overall you are right to reject The Church on three fundamental facts:

 

1) Atrocity church does to children and innocents.

 

2) Frauds and failings in the scripture, dogma, doctrine, ritual, and other ongoings.

 

3) Failings overall of the logic and facts related to any God and religion in total.

 

For us, being associated with a Church or by being a Jesuit in the past, the problem gets simpler based on all three of those factors, and the fact Jesus defeats the faith in total.

 

For Jesus, and this ruins the Church and Vatican, we have:

 

1) Jesus does not pay for you.  This is not possible. You account for your own wrong doing.

 

2) Jesus can not decide to be a martyr and really took his own life as he saw it as required to support his faith.

 

3) Jesus as a prophet would know better than to offer his death as payment. This defeats Muslims.

 

4) Vatican admits Bible is in error.  This admits murder on heresy and ruins foundation of Papal Infallibility.

 

5) Justifications and other specious and sophist approaches in Bible that make Jesuit faith a cult or occult.

 

6) The blood debt, substitutionary death, and Holy Communion, have you partake in a 2000 year old set of murders starting with Jesus himself.

 

This will take a longer dialog and I have texts I can organize better here, but this is the best start I can make to people and they usually see through the problem better this way.

 

Jesus defeats the faith.

[TerryZZJones]

And to this question which is a good one:

"Thanks guys, I’ll try to keep those thoughts in mind. "

 

I have more if you like....

 

"As someone who never really felt god for myself, I can find it hard to identify with those who genuinely felt in relationship with Jesus. Those of you who were Christians for many years, did you feel at the time that you were truly experiencing him or were you just going through the motions? If you really felt you were in a relationship with the living god, what was the main thing that led you on the path out of faith?"

 

I had an understanding that something was ongoing and that this was far larger than me.  It came down to a number of things, some of this was supernatural or spiritual in basis and effect, has nothing to do with religions, and some was those in the Church acting in a way to invent their God.

I joined the Church later in life, not knowing I had been harmed in the past, even so as a child, and I went for answers.  Turns out they are guilty of doing serious crime to me and I did not recall it as of yet.  They then newly conspired in a marital fraud, that ended in a homicide done to me.  Church asked me to leave.


 

[TruthSeeker0]

47 minutes ago, Kat34 said:

Thanks guys, I’ll try to keep those thoughts in mind. 

As someone who never really felt god for myself, I can find it hard to identify with those who genuinely felt in relationship with Jesus. Those of you who were Christians for many years, did you feel at the time that you were truly experiencing him or were you just going through the motions? If you really felt you were in a relationship with the living god, what was the main thing that led you on the path out of faith?

I never felt I was in a relationship with him, my church didn't really push that angle. It was more like "have you asked for forgiveness today?" and god acted through other Christians, so you had to go to them, not god, for forgiveness.

What led me out of it? The problem of suffering, and having to believe that people I loved were going to hell. That's where my questioning started.

[Stargazer95]

9 hours ago, Kat34 said:

Thanks guys, I’ll try to keep those thoughts in mind. 

As someone who never really felt god for myself, I can find it hard to identify with those who genuinely felt in relationship with Jesus. Those of you who were Christians for many years, did you feel at the time that you were truly experiencing him or were you just going through the motions? If you really felt you were in a relationship with the living god, what was the main thing that led you on the path out of faith?

 

No, I never felt it, though I begged God for it many times. The closest I got was when a church member approached me after the service one day with a message from God, and told me that "God sees you" and a bunch of other vague things that I unfortunately can't remember anymore. At the time it felt so exciting to be singled out by God in that way. I remember going into the car park and feeling (or "knowing") that he was really there. I'd never felt that way before, and that was such a huge moment for me. But the moment passed, and my high wore off, and I've never felt anything like that again. 

 

I've come to really hate the relationship language actually. A relationship is supposed to be a two-way thing, and yet it's humans putting in all the work - praying, going to church, sitting through sermons, singing, reading our bibles, going to prayer meetings and bible studies, reading books on everything from understanding the bible to hearing God's voice, tithing, volunteering, seeking his will for our lives and giving up our own desires in the process, etc etc etc. And what do we get in response? Barely a whisper of acknowledgement. Seems like a pretty lame relationship if you ask me. 

[Kat34]

24 minutes ago, Stargazer95 said:

A relationship is supposed to be a two-way thing, and yet it's humans putting in all the work - praying, going to church, sitting through sermons, singing, reading our bibles, going to prayer meetings and bible studies, reading books on everything from understanding the bible to hearing God's voice, tithing, volunteering, seeking his will for our lives and giving up our own desires in the process, etc etc etc. And what do we get in response? Barely a whisper of acknowledgement. Seems like a pretty lame relationship if you ask me. 

Yes I kind of felt a bit like this too. I know there are people (including ex Christians) who genuinely felt they were in a relationship with God but that was never my experience and perhaps why I was never really able to sustain things for long and ended up dipping in and out a lot. In my 20s I know I asked God a lot to help me to want Christianity (because I thought it was true but it seemed so alien and unappealing to me in many ways) and to help me with the fears and difficulties I had with it but I never felt any kind of response. 

[Joshpantera]

 

[Kat34]

Came across this today and it summarised a lot of my thoughts about the injustices of hell quite nicely 

 

 

[ag_NO_stic]

There were 

On 10/9/2018 at 4:45 AM, Kat34 said:

OP (cut for length)

 

Sorry if others have said the same things I plan to, there were 6 pages and I don't have time to read through it all right now. In my experience, if you want to move forward, you will need to force yourself to face and come to terms with some uncomfortable facts. Let these few harsh, simple truths resonate with you:

 

1) No one knows. Many claim to know, but no one knows. We also can't do anything about this. Your response to not knowing is up to you, but your fear or non fear will not change not knowing. 

2) You cannot escape death. It is the ultimate unknown.

3) Worrying (or other responses) will not change this one bit. 

4) You can always be careful, but you can only control so much. This desire to control what happens to us is very understandable, but it was the hardest truth for me to face before I felt free. 

 

Let the experience of others on this site, in dealing with these truths, bring you deep comfort. Let the knowledge that these truths affect every person on this planet bring you comfort. You are not alone, you are not the only one scared. It's one of those topics that we have pondered forever and will continue to ponder indefinitely. Billions of people, all of us on this planet, have been taught all kinds of stories and fears of what we cannot know by our ancestors. Many of us here have been in your shoes at one point or another, it's why coming to terms with and embracing that you will die is so powerful. I think that's why many of us view life differently now. As a Christian, I did not value my life. I thought god had made everything I saw for ME, for us as humans. And then I was gonna cruise right on into an eternal heaven and never-ending bliss. If you think about it, something is only valuable if it can be lost. 

 

Consider this: We are a species of primate trying to stumble our way through life. We don't know shit. We make shit up all the time to make ourselves feel better. It makes complete sense that we will tell ourselves there is somewhere better if we "behave" in this life. That if you're "bad" then bad things happen when you die. That's "Persuade People to Do What You Want 101," the ultimate control mechanism. 

 

I still fear things a lot, I'm a very anxious person. But as soon as I accepted that my fear will not change what happens to me, which does take time, things get better. At least they did for me. Some other things that comforted me: Christians could be right, but so could Wiccans. Or Muslims. Or Catholics. Or any one particular branch of Christianity that contradict each other.....Hindus. Buddhists. Mormons. Tribes we don't even know about yet. The historical Romans and their mythology. The historical Greeks and their mythology. You realize Jews, "God's chosen people" don't even believe in hell, that's a Christian thing. The list is never ending. So what will Christians do if THEY are wrong.   

 

Also watch these. Helped me a lot too.

 

 

[Kat34]

@ag_NO_stic thank you for this... some very sound points. Like you, I’m a very anxious person. It’s good to hear you ultimately managed to arrive at some kind of peace about the not knowing for sure but feeling confident enough to reject the Christian teaching. 

 

I keep thinking about how many thousands of people through history must’ve been absolutely terrified by what they were taught and had no way of looking into things for themselves or accessing support with their fears. It’s really sad. 

[ag_NO_stic]

5 hours ago, Kat34 said:

@ag_NO_stic thank you for this... some very sound points. Like you, I’m a very anxious person. It’s good to hear you ultimately managed to arrive at some kind of peace about the not knowing for sure but feeling confident enough to reject the Christian teaching. 

 

I keep thinking about how many thousands of people through history must’ve been absolutely terrified by what they were taught and had no way of looking into things for themselves or accessing support with their fears. It’s really sad. 

 

That's because I stopped being scared and got really pissed. I went from, "please, god, don't send me to hell, I'm terrified" to "If you exist as Christians say, fuck you I'll show myself there. All the people I like are there anyway, who wants to worship your bullshit."

 

That's when things changed. I realized that even if it DOES exist, heaven would be more of a hell to me anyway. I can never worship the christian god. I pick Nietzsche! Lol

[Kat34]

12 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

That's because I stopped being scared and got really pissed. I went from, "please, god, don't send me to hell, I'm terrified" to "If you exist as Christians say, fuck you I'll show myself there. All the people I like are there anyway, who wants to worship your bullshit."

 

That's when things changed. I realized that even if it DOES exist, heaven would be more of a hell to me anyway. I can never worship the christian god. I pick Nietzsche! Lol

Well there’s definitely something in that... that’s not my idea of a loving god, one that creates hell. 

 

I am just so up and down through this process. Today was maybe my most positive day in the last 2.5 weeks, then this evening I’ve been terrified thinking about predestination and that this must be the reason I’ve never felt god, because I’m destined to be damned. And then worrying about my children and what their fate is. This is all just so fucked up, I really need to get to the point where I completely don’t believe Christianity in any way so that I can stop thinking this way. 

[TruthSeeker0]

3 minutes ago, Kat34 said:

Well there’s definitely something in that... that’s not my idea of a loving god, one that creates hell. 

 

I am just so up and down through this process. Today was maybe my most positive day in the last 2.5 weeks, then this evening I’ve been terrified thinking about predestination and that this must be the reason I’ve never felt god, because I’m destined to be damned. And then worrying about my children and what their fate is. This is all just so fucked up, I really need to get to the point where I completely don’t believe Christianity in any way so that I can stop thinking this way. 

What you need Kat, is to get out of the fear. Your mind has been conditioned that way, and that's why it's important to understand what's going on in your mind, and what you can do to calm down those fears and recognize that it's your conditioning and fear that's affecting and controlling you at this point. Have you had a chance to begin reading Winell?

[Kat34]

28 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

What you need Kat, is to get out of the fear. Your mind has been conditioned that way, and that's why it's important to understand what's going on in your mind, and what you can do to calm down those fears and recognize that it's your conditioning and fear that's affecting and controlling you at this point. Have you had a chance to begin reading Winell?

I have, yes - I think the difficulty is I’m not yet at the stage to use some of the strategies she suggests, like comforting my inner child, because the adult me is still in a place of uncertainty, fear and confusion! I don’t even really know where the stuff about predestination is coming from, I think my mind is just going over every possibility and it’s almost like there’s some sabotage there, so as soon as I start making some progress (realising so much of Christianity doesn’t make sense, isn’t really morally sound, that I’ve had no experience to make me think it could be true, I need to go with integrity over safety and stay true to myself) then I come up with something to undermine that (all of those things are because you were never chosen anyway, that’s why you’ve never felt god and it doesn’t make sense to you). 

[TruthSeeker0]

1 hour ago, Kat34 said:

I have, yes - I think the difficulty is I’m not yet at the stage to use some of the strategies she suggests, like comforting my inner child, because the adult me is still in a place of uncertainty, fear and confusion! I don’t even really know where the stuff about predestination is coming from, I think my mind is just going over every possibility and it’s almost like there’s some sabotage there, so as soon as I start making some progress (realising so much of Christianity doesn’t make sense, isn’t really morally sound, that I’ve had no experience to make me think it could be true, I need to go with integrity over safety and stay true to myself) then I come up with something to undermine that (all of those things are because you were never chosen anyway, that’s why you’ve never felt god and it doesn’t make sense to you). 

Yeah that's what I called my "religious inner voice" talking to me, and whenever it happened during my deconversion I just wouldn't give it the time of day. Eventually it stopped talking. This is likely harder for some people to shut out though, we're all different. But basically, whenever my mind came up with some shit in support of the god is true or god intends this argument, I just ignored it and refused to give it credibility. 

[ag_NO_stic]

3 hours ago, Kat34 said:

I have, yes - I think the difficulty is I’m not yet at the stage to use some of the strategies she suggests, like comforting my inner child, because the adult me is still in a place of uncertainty, fear and confusion! I don’t even really know where the stuff about predestination is coming from, I think my mind is just going over every possibility and it’s almost like there’s some sabotage there, so as soon as I start making some progress (realising so much of Christianity doesn’t make sense, isn’t really morally sound, that I’ve had no experience to make me think it could be true, I need to go with integrity over safety and stay true to myself) then I come up with something to undermine that (all of those things are because you were never chosen anyway, that’s why you’ve never felt god and it doesn’t make sense to you). 

 

Why would you want to be chosen anyway?! Gross! That's like never ending church with the constant realization that at least you're not "in hell" like those other poor motherfuckers. Yay god.

 

[TruthSeeker0]

15 minutes ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

Why would you want to be chosen anyway?! Gross! That's like never ending church with the constant realization that at least you're not "in hell" like those other poor motherfuckers. Yay god.

 

Ag has a point here. I didn't really start to think the issue through until my therapist told me personally, the idea of heaven bores him. And eventually, I came to the same conclusion. 

[Kat34]

1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Ag has a point here. I didn't really start to think the issue through until my therapist told me personally, the idea of heaven bores him. And eventually, I came to the same conclusion. 

As a teenager, the idea of heaven freaked me out - I too thought it sounded incredibly boring. But better than the alternative I figured at the time. Actually the concept of eternity generally freaked me out. I think having children is what magnifies all these fears really (and what triggered them for the first time in years), it’s for their sake that I don’t want any of this shit to be true. 

[TruthSeeker0]

23 minutes ago, Kat34 said:

As a teenager, the idea of heaven freaked me out - I too thought it sounded incredibly boring. But better than the alternative I figured at the time. Actually the concept of eternity generally freaked me out. I think having children is what magnifies all these fears really (and what triggered them for the first time in years), it’s for their sake that I don’t want any of this shit to be true. 

If you were born Muslim you'd be equally scared right now that that could be the right faith. What's more than convincing for me is, we have all these people walking the planet who are all convinced they're right, and everyone else is wrong, and it's simply determined by what country or region they were born in, or what faith they inherited from their parents.

 

Correction: nobody is born Muslim, but indoctrinated into it

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Kat, please consider that you may be mired in an obsession.  Do yourself a favor and talk with a mental health professional.

[Joshpantera]

On 10/25/2018 at 10:41 PM, Kat34 said:

As a teenager, the idea of heaven freaked me out - I too thought it sounded incredibly boring. But better than the alternative I figured at the time. Actually the concept of eternity generally freaked me out. I think having children is what magnifies all these fears really (and what triggered them for the first time in years), it’s for their sake that I don’t want any of this shit to be true. 

 

Me too. I couldn't focus on eternity for very long without having to force a change of subject. I would try to imagine the second coming in my own lifetime (because we were being told that it was right around the corner, almost there). And I couldn't imagine the possibility of just being conscious forever, from here on out, with no end. Never experiencing death. And then later I gave the whole thing up like Santa Claus. 

[ag_NO_stic]

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Me too. I couldn't focus on eternity for very long without having to force a change of subject. I would try to imagine the second coming in my own lifetime (because we were being told that it was right around the corner, almost there). And I couldn't imagine the possibility of just being conscious forever, from here on out, with no end. Never experiencing death. And then later I gave the whole thing up like Santa Claus. 

SAME! Contemplating eternity is a weird feeling and it was always unsettling to me. I never wanted to go to heaven, I just didn't want to go to hell.

[Kat34]

4 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said:

SAME! Contemplating eternity is a weird feeling and it was always unsettling to me. I never wanted to go to heaven, I just didn't want to go to hell.

Oh yes this was me. I used to think it was so unfair that we didn’t ask to be born and then had to live forever somewhere!