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Joshpantera

Ex Christian Spirituality: The rough treatment

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8 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Lets say you cast said spell once a week for a month and you did see said pink roller skates, how do you determine if its your spell having an effect on reality, or just random occurrence of seeing someone wearing a popular item in a popular colour, or as a result of heightened awareness. Its like you always remember seeing see the make of your car during a trip more than other cars. If the above is the criteria for determine spell efficiency then biblical prophesy has you guys beat! However doing this could be fun... might give it a shot.

 

You in on the experiment then? 

 

I haven't seen anyone on roller skates in years, maybe decades. Let along pink roller skates. That's pretty off the wall considering. 

 

How to Magick: 

 

 

@midniterider

 

"I see a girl on pink roller skates this week" 

 

SGRLNPNKRLRSKTSTHSWK

 

SGRLNPKTHW

 

Do I have this right so far? Draw out the above condensed sequence and then carry out the Sigil? 

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1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

 

You in on the experiment then? 

 

I haven't seen anyone on roller skates in years, maybe decades. Let along pink roller skates. That's pretty off the wall considering. 

 

How to Magick: 

 

 

@midniterider

 

"I see a girl in pink roller skates this week" 

 

SGRLNPNKRLRSKTSTHSWK

 

SGRLNPKTHW

 

Do I have this right so far? Draw out the above condensed sequence and then carry out the Sigil? 

 

Sure, that works. You could split it up into two or three parts also, reinsert some vowels to make some strange words and let it be a mantra in your head or out loud. :) 

 

 

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5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Ha that is the Assassins Creed.

 

 

It's actually a line from " Alamut by Vladimir Bartol ", published in 1938. Chaos Mages first stole it in the 1970s. Assassin's creed stole it later. So there!!! lol

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On 10/18/2018 at 7:39 AM, florduh said:

IMO, discussing Druidism, Ancient Gods, Satanism or the efficacy of the Tarot is counterproductive as such topics will always come with requests for further explanation and evidence.

 

That's the magick part of ex christian spirituality, what about Buddhist's or Hindu's. Equally delusional as christians? In need of working through their delusions? Or are we just fine to leave them be and let them work it out on their own? 

 

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9 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

Equally delusional as christians?

I think that's rather obvious. But since it's not Christianity we at Ex-C must not question it and give it a pass. Does that sound about right?

 

 

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54 minutes ago, florduh said:

I think that's rather obvious. But since it's not Christianity we at Ex-C must not question it and give it a pass. Does that sound about right?

 

 

 

So this prompts me to ask about something I've thought about occasionally since I've been here:  what if somebody deconverts from Christianity and converts to Islam?  Would it be OK for them to join ex-C and promote Islam in the Ex-Christian Spirituality forum?  Would we be allowed to confront such ideas?  Would we be able to confront other theistic ideas?  Which ones?  Where would we draw the line?  We don't want to be impatient with people who are still going though the deconversion process and still hold on to some god-beliefs.  I personally would find some vague benevolent theism much preferable to the traditional theologies.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that this should be an atheist-only community.  That would be counter-productive: it would alienate some long-standing members and it surely would repel many newcomers - it would have put me off when I first came here.  But I don't think theism should go entirely unchallenged either.   So I'm just putting this out here to see what you all think, speaking as one of the least 'spiritual' among us. 

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6 minutes ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

But I don't think theism should go entirely unchallenged either.

Do you (anyone) think Christianity and other god/magical beliefs should all be treated equally and open to scrutiny? Why or why not?

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1 hour ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

But I don't think theism should go entirely unchallenged either.   So I'm just putting this out here to see what you all think, speaking as one of the least 'spiritual' among us. 

 

That's what prompted this Den thread. Even though we have the spirituality section people still go challenged for expressing their various "beliefs" and some complaints have been made in the open about it. 

 

We happen to be talking about the magick stuff first off, but it could be anything, even Islam as you mention. The question I don't think is so much whether or not we challenge theistic beliefs, but more wheather we leave theistic challenging alone in that one particular forum, set aside as where we're supposed to leave it alone. Here and everywhere else is completely open to challenge as far as I know. The theists have to exist along atheists. They're free to make arguments or question why some of us are atheist, too. It goes both ways. Kat32 has been questioning atheism with us, in fact. We're free to question theism in return outside of the spirituality section. 

 

It would be hard not to question Islam for a lot of us, even in the spirituality section. But if someone converting from christianity to judaism gets blanked under christianity because of being Abrahamic, then I'd say a Muslim convert would be blanketed the same way. And Mormons, etc. So that tends to take away any special "safe space" some Muslim convert might try and reach for. 🤣

 

For neo pagans, Buddhists, Hindus, New Agers, etc., they've had a safe space set aside in one sub forum to discuss their "beliefs" and or "faith." 

 

This conversation is gloves off, so any one should feel free to speak their mind and opinion without possibly breaking a rule in the process. I'm of the opinion that the spiritual folks would be better off if they learn to see human spirituality through naturalist views. But that will actually blanket some of this woo woo which is atheistic and geared not towards supernatural entities, but simply human consciousness and things of a natural orientation. It's speculative about nature and human consciousness, but it's not belief in supernatural gods and beings at the same time. So this sort of thing I look at as welcome under the banner of "atheism." Even though a lot of atheists don't like the woo woo angles. Nevertheless, if it's not theism its atheism to me. And a brethren faction for atheists as far as that goes. 

 

But I can't go forcing those naturalistic spiritual views on people in the spirituality section, so I can state my views and stand by and let theistic ex christians state theirs. I don't think that it's open for me to flat out debate the issue god, belief or faith with them in there. It's a place to just state things and pretty much leave it at that. Florduh says questioning people about their beliefs is ok. So we have that going both ways. 

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20 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

 

Non-wooists close your eyes:

 

A magician is supposed to keep a log of his spellcasting and later determine if there was a positive outcome or not. For the magician, their log or 'book of shadows' isn't for the purpose of proving magic works to people who could care less, but determining what works for the magician. It's kind of contradictory though, to do that with sigil magick as the magician is supposed to forget about it after he does it. This is where I invoke the "Nothing is True, Everything is permitted" axiom and kind of ignore the belief that you need to forget about it. Still, I'm too lazy to keep a log. How to tell between coincidence and magickal efficacy? Good question. Try casting a spell for something very very unimportant yet very odd but very possible. Like, "I will see someone wearing pink roller skates within the week." Try a bunch of times. See what happens. :)

 

For me, I don't want to spend months or years doing my own spellcasting study to see if it works before I decide to  follow that path. I'll just cast something now and then, assuming it works.

 

You ignoring the belief that you should forget about it is another type of directed energy. You control what you believe and don't believe. It doesn't really matter if some high mucky muck has said xyz is THE way this works. It may only work that way because for a long time a LOT of people put all their energy into that concept. It isn't that it necessarily really "is" any one true way.

 

On another level... who even cares if something is coincidence or not. We already know from the placebo effect, the nocebo effect, and the lives of optimists and pessimists that directed energy/belief DOES work in certain circumstances. It's a crap shoot a lot of the time, though. Also, it's almost impossible to separate out your causes and effects. This is true in marketing. Someone does like 10 different marketing things, but for whatever reason 90% of those things can't be fully tracked for the results. They get a good result but they don't know which things or which combination of things is doing it. Often it's a combination snowball effect like each thing feeds the other things.

 

Nobody should be sitting around just 'directing their will' through ritual. Because it won't be as effective as going out into the world and adding other forms of energy to that  pot. Like active behaviors. Some skeptics would say... okay then the active behaviors are what does it... but let me draw you back to the optimist and the pessimist. Same behaviors very different results.

 

If you believe you can or believe you can't, you're right, is a saying for a reason.

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20 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

 

Non-wooists close your eyes:

 

A magician is supposed to keep a log of his spellcasting and later determine if there was a positive outcome or not. For the magician, their log or 'book of shadows' isn't for the purpose of proving magic works to people who could care less, but determining what works for the magician. It's kind of contradictory though, to do that with sigil magick as the magician is supposed to forget about it after he does it. This is where I invoke the "Nothing is True, Everything is permitted" axiom and kind of ignore the belief that you need to forget about it. Still, I'm too lazy to keep a log. How to tell between coincidence and magickal efficacy? Good question. Try casting a spell for something very very unimportant yet very odd but very possible. Like, "I will see someone wearing pink roller skates within the week." Try a bunch of times. See what happens. :)

 

For me, I don't want to spend months or years doing my own spellcasting study to see if it works before I decide to  follow that path. I'll just cast something now and then, assuming it works.

 

re: your last comment here... and that has an effect, too. When you believe something like that, you basically believe you have a larger degree of power and control over your own life. People who believe that way, actually DO have more control over their own lives. People who think they are subject to the whims of fate or luck or whatever don't have as good outcomes. And this is the double edged sword not just of "magic", but of any spiritual belief. There is always a negative/superstitious/harmful way you can take it and go down a path that is mentally very unhealthy. I see in atheists a hyper awareness of this that precludes for them any of the positive sides due to the potential risk of the negative.

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Claude Bristol wrote "The Magic of Believing" back in the 1940s, I think. "The Secret" and anything from CHopra and all the other New Age authors is merely a rehash of this seminal work. Even modern Witchcraft and Pagan beliefs can follow a direct path back to this book. Spoiler: He wasn't wrong.  

 

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3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

That's the magick part of ex christian spirituality, what about Buddhist's or Hindu's. Equally delusional as christians? In need of working through their delusions? Or are we just fine to leave them be and let them work it out on their own? 

 

 

Well Hindus have ancient gods. And many buddhists believe in gods or other supernatural entities. And on the pagan spectrum, on the Heathen end of things you generally have less interest in magic. I'm not saying no Heathen ever does it. Definitely they do. And you have runes which are often used in that way as well or for divination, but I've noticed the Heathen side of the pagan pool seems to be much more focused in the here and now of the "world we all agree is real more or less". There may be some focus/understanding of the gods (usually as ancestors because of the heavy leaning toward ancestor veneration), as well as mythology/legends as well as a value structure and a metaphysical cosmology (i.e. what happens when you die), but it tends to be more focused on that, which makes it for most Westerners seem a lot less grounded in woo and more like other spiritual systems. (With the striking exception that we don't "grovel/bow/beg/scrape" with the gods and don't see them as beings who are "in charge of us" or who we have to "obey". I'm almost positive the old gods are somewhat repulsed by anybody who would run around trying to "obey" them. I'd also be curious where such a list of commands could be found. There is the Havamal (words of Odin... though I don't know of anybody who believes this LITERALLY) but it's really more like shit your grandfather would tell you like "here's some wisdom I've collected that you might find useful so you don't have to reinvent the wheel."

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On 10/18/2018 at 6:10 AM, LogicalFallacy said:

Alright you bunch of magical woo people, you are in the lions den now! No safe spaces, bring your claws and Armour or get out!

 

Where I guess I don't understand the other mindset is where people have an understanding of spiritual as if it affects or is part of reality. Verbosity was talking about nature magic, and ok I'm not entirely sure what shes meaning when talking about magic, but she did use the phrase to the effect that it must be magic or spiritual because we don't know what else it is. Of course I tried to point out that even with a belief in the spiritual, that's still a flawed way of thinking about things.
@midniterider

 

 

This is what I meant when I said you didn't get what I was saying. I was using poetic language when using the term "magic" and you were taking me literally. My understanding of what magic is, is not this whiz bang harry potter magic stuff. I don't see it that way. When i say the universe is magic, I'm saying when you look at all that exists and HOW the fuck it could possibly exist and the hard question of consciousness and the bizarreness of our own existence and self-awareness of it... how is that not magic? I mean is it just that you're sort of used to it? If you lived in "Harry Potter World" I imagine all that wand waving would become just common place and mundane. The only reason it is 'magic" is because there is a muggle world for contrast. We have no contrasting "muggle world" to the absolute wonder and mystery that surrounds us. So yes, I interpret this as 'magic', but not in the way you're thinking, which was why I said you weren't getting me.

 

I'm not really a big magic/ritual type person. I see a lot of value in the runes, and I also see the value in directing your mental energy in accordance with your behavior so everything is lined up and I guess has a sort of "resonant energy" to sound all woo-y again. I like a bit of ritual for holidays and equinoxes and solstices but it isn't about 'magic'. It's about tradition and honoring things I find sacred. My ancestors, nature, etc.

 

Being in the Heathen camp I'm really more about "the ancestors" and my myths (because to me these stories are meaningful and resonate on a very deep level for me and are "mine" in a way other stories are not), and nature, and really I just see the world itself and the experience of living in this world as a very sacred experience. In fact, the way you talk about the awe of nature is WAY closer to my way of seeing the world than you think. Don't let the poetic language and way of expressing it trip you up with me. :)

 

Obviously this is not saying I don't have beliefs you would find supernatural or "woo-y". I believe my ancestors are on the "other side" and that they are not "gone" or "far away". I believe they are intimately connected to me in a real way and that we are connected on a deeper soul level as part of a larger soul group. And I believe in reincarnation. And that the old gods are ACTUAL beings (ancestors inside the soul group). So I have woo, but it's more philosophical woo than "let me change physical reality with my mind and these cool props" woo, not that I have any particular issue with the latter it's just not why I follow a more pagan path. I follow it because it's what my ancestors created. I take some old and add some new and have something that is "me".

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On 10/18/2018 at 7:39 AM, florduh said:

 

We have run into many such topics in the Spirituality Forum, but I think the thrust of the forum is or should be spirituality as opposed to bizarre woo beliefs and practices. Most people, religious or not, atheist or not, experience what some call spirituality. Awe and wonder at nature and all that. The feeling that we are all in this together whether it's obvious or not. The suspicion that there just might be something for us after death, just maybe. Though a spiritual side to existence can't be scientifically proven this is worth discussing as it is common among almost all people. Is it worth exploring? Do we need any gods to go there? Many have a feeling or sense of knowing there is "more." Let's explore that. IMO, discussing Druidism, Ancient Gods, Satanism or the efficacy of the Tarot is counterproductive as such topics will always come with requests for further explanation and evidence.

 

I don't feel a burden of proof because I don't care what you believe or don't believe and I don't think you are lesser for believing or not believing it. I believe all souls are free (not in the join my club or burn, stupid, way) and can choose who and what they become over time.

 

But I can tell you why it's important to me to have "gods". I always felt very disconnected in the modern world we live in. I appreciate many modern conveniences obviously... but I've often felt "out of time" like I don't really fully "belong here". I don't understand the shallow, vapid, consumerist way so many around me live their lives. It is comforting to me to know that people before me... people whose existence made my existence possible, thought about a lot of things very much the way I think about them. That we share many of the same values and that we tell stories in similar ways. After exploring many different spiritual paths, knowing that I am connected intimately to those who came before me even to far back to who we might call "gods", makes it possible to exist in this disconnected world because I am always connected to my own roots. It's not about what I "believe" necessarily, but about where I come from and who came before me and the similarities we have despite time and distance.

 

I don't believe the gods are "metaphysically different" from me. I believe they are simply the next level of soul development and were once human and that humans will someday be "gods" because I believe souls are a thing. Obviously that may be the giant bridge you can't walk over, and I respect that, but I can't see things any other way.

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2 hours ago, ThereAndBackAgain said:

 

So this prompts me to ask about something I've thought about occasionally since I've been here:  what if somebody deconverts from Christianity and converts to Islam?  Would it be OK for them to join ex-C and promote Islam in the Ex-Christian Spirituality forum?  Would we be allowed to confront such ideas?  Would we be able to confront other theistic ideas?  Which ones?  Where would we draw the line?  We don't want to be impatient with people who are still going though the deconversion process and still hold on to some god-beliefs.  I personally would find some vague benevolent theism much preferable to the traditional theologies.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that this should be an atheist-only community.  That would be counter-productive: it would alienate some long-standing members and it surely would repel many newcomers - it would have put me off when I first came here.  But I don't think theism should go entirely unchallenged either.   So I'm just putting this out here to see what you all think, speaking as one of the least 'spiritual' among us. 

 

When has anybody "promoted" their beliefs here in the sense of trying to convert anybody? I don't give a shit what anybody believes personally.

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

Claude Bristol wrote "The Magic of Believing" back in the 1940s, I think. "The Secret" and anything from CHopra and all the other New Age authors is merely a rehash of this seminal work. Even modern Witchcraft and Pagan beliefs can follow a direct path back to this book. Spoiler: He wasn't wrong.  

 

 

He makes a 1940's MAGA comment in the first few minutes. 😂

 

I'm listing through.

 

I went back further than this researching years ago, because the "Secret" and stuff you're talking about goes back to Robert Collier in the 20's, by name specifically, "The Secret of the Ages." I have a very old worn copy of the book on my shelf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Collier_(author)

 

It looks like Bristol came out around 20 years later. They probably both have informed the New Age I'm sure. But I'm wondering how much Collier influenced Bristol.

 

Sounds like a heavy influence the first 10 minutes going into it. By end, I see that the content is nearly identical. 

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I never heard of Collier before. Perhaps there are even more of them.

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1 hour ago, VerbosityCat said:

But I can tell you why it's important to me to have "gods".

The "why" was all I asked for. Thanks.

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13 hours ago, florduh said:

I never heard of Collier before. Perhaps there are even more of them.

 

I'm sure Collier probably took influence from 19th century Theosophy and related content. Then produced his works in the 20's and it took off further informing Bristol and others until it was a staple of the New Age. But one thing I see here is the transition from the ultra supernaturalist outlook of the 19th century Theosophists like HP Blavatsky, and what was happening in the early to mid 20th century. It was changing for sure. 

 

If you look at MR's Chaos Magick and the Sigils, they are basically drawing exactly from the sub conscious mind content. And with the Quantum Sorcery as a sub set of Chaos Magick, it's even further removed from the supernaturalism of older magick practice. The Mage has made it a completely non-theistic, non-spirit realm type of outlook. And he's trying to figure out how it is that the sub conscious mind could possibly communicate things. And comes to quantum physics and observer effect related issues, instead of gods, spirits, or whatever. 

 

This really can be direct line traced to what was going on with Collier and Bristol. But they probably trace back to previous magickal practice and content themselves. They both sort of admit as much when they cite having learned all variety of religious and spiritual traditions. I heard Bristol credit Theosophy. That's why I was thinking that the sub conscious stuff came from magick and then got into the self help world in the early to mid 19th century. Then got rehashed more recently again in the early 21st century. 

 

 

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On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 3:10 AM, LogicalFallacy said:

Alright you bunch of magical woo people, you are in the lions den now! No safe spaces, bring your claws and Armour or get out!

Great comment! Love it!

 Can I borrow "you bunch of magical woo people" ? I would really enjoy saying this to some people ! And it sooo fits what they do and believe!

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Neville Goddard produced another gospel of the sub conscious mind behind Collier and Bristol. I wonder how many of these guys there were. 

 

 

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     So spirituality is just self-help?  If you believe it you can achieve it?  All MLM is just spirituality?  I don't see why not.  It seems like it's whatever you want it to be.  That being the case there's no way to say anyone isn't spiritual and whatever anyone says or does, or doesn't, qualifies.  My typing this is pumping some sort of drug into my head and feeding my "soul" so it's probably spirituality in action.

 

          mwc

 

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1 hour ago, mwc said:

     So spirituality is just self-help?  If you believe it you can achieve it?  All MLM is just spirituality?  I don't see why not.  It seems like it's whatever you want it to be.  That being the case there's no way to say anyone isn't spiritual and whatever anyone says or does, or doesn't, qualifies.  My typing this is pumping some sort of drug into my head and feeding my "soul" so it's probably spirituality in action.

 

          mwc

 

 

I suppose the argument can be made. Especially with spiritual being wrapped up in feelings of interconnection, unity of all things, oneness between man and cosmos, etc. What is the divine? The whole of it all. What does that include? Everything. 

 

There couldn't be anything not-spiritual, not even material. There's a saying, "spirit, matter, no separation." And the seemingly dark and evil in the world gets rolled into the 'hide and seek' game that the absolute is playing with itself, basically, to summarize. 

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19 hours ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

You ignoring the belief that you should forget about it is another type of directed energy. You control what you believe and don't believe. It doesn't really matter if some high mucky muck has said xyz is THE way this works. It may only work that way because for a long time a LOT of people put all their energy into that concept. It isn't that it necessarily really "is" any one true way.

 

Great point!

 

That is an interesting concept. What if some actual alternate cause(s) for an effect was not given the time of day because some group of dogmatic experts/authorities had a fixed idea about how something 'should' work and would not even entertain other possibilities outside of their personal preference? 

 

Quote

On another level... who even cares if something is coincidence or not. We already know from the placebo effect, the nocebo effect, and the lives of optimists and pessimists that directed energy/belief DOES work in certain circumstances. It's a crap shoot a lot of the time, though. Also, it's almost impossible to separate out your causes and effects. This is true in marketing. Someone does like 10 different marketing things, but for whatever reason 90% of those things can't be fully tracked for the results. They get a good result but they don't know which things or which combination of things is doing it. Often it's a combination snowball effect like each thing feeds the other things.

 

Nobody should be sitting around just 'directing their will' through ritual. Because it won't be as effective as going out into the world and adding other forms of energy to that  pot. Like active behaviors. Some skeptics would say... okay then the active behaviors are what does it... but let me draw you back to the optimist and the pessimist. Same behaviors very different results.

 

If you believe you can or believe you can't, you're right, is a saying for a reason.

 

Regarding magic, for what I do it's not that important  that an outcome is coincidence or not. Sometimes an event occurs that directly corresponds to being a result of casting a spell. Sure, it 'could' happen without my 'wish' for it to happen, but the odds of it just happening by itself were pretty small. Because it was such a specific effect I wanted and probably not something that is 'just gonna happen by itself." :)

 

Regarding placebo effect, something I've heard before is that Bob might have healed himself because he thought that the sugar pill was a new cancer treatment...but he still died 5 years later. But you know, the same goes for conventional medicine. People on fully approved medicine still die. Does this mean the placebo effect doesn't work? Does this mean that conventional medicine doesn't work?   If someone offered you a experimental treatment for a terminal illness at a reasonable price as a clinical trial , that would 'maybe' give you a few years more of life, would you say, "Hmmmm, have 1000 scientists approved of this treatment? What evidence is there that it works? Let me spend my final weeks or months of life researching that experimental med first."

 

I suppose I could poo-poo the idea that phillips screwdrivers are actually helpful and vow never to use one. I mean, after all they just spin the screw head anyway. Why bother with one? Or I could try learning more about using the correct size instead of just announcing to my wife, "phillips screwdrivers suck.'

 

I 'know' that in some very very rare instances people who have spent all their lives playing the piano have 'supposedly' become professional concert pianists .... but the factual evidence shows that 99.9% of the world population cannot play the piano at all. So I think the handful of famous pianists is anecdotal and thus unacceptable to my rigid thinking. If  most of the world cannot play the piano, why would I think that I could either? I mean I tried it 'once.' Couldn't do it. Nope. My playing was nothing like a professional who had  been doing it since birth. Therefore, it's impossible. :)

 

The same goes for anything that I dont personally like. If I dont want to try it then it doesn't work and I'll back up that claim by quoting 1000 other people  who spent 2 minutes trying and failed at it...or merely poo-pooed the idea out of hand without giving it a fair shake...because my belief system must be maintained. /sarcasm

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Personally I believe that:

 

1. A woo-free lifestyle is a good thing for the people in whom it resonates.

2. Kind of like playing cricket. It's not my thing and I don't feel that it will cause harm to someone. Unless they fall down or something.

3. I wish woo-free people a good life with their non-woo-ness.

4. I don't want feel it is my business to change woo-free people's minds about woo.

5. I accept them as being wooists though my philosophy is the opposite of theirs.

6. My personal philosophy is not the one true way.

 

Now woo-free people:

 

1. Is a woo lifestyle a good thing for the people in whom it resonates?

2. Do you feel woo will harm someone?

3. Can you wish woo people a good life in their woo-ness?

4. Do you feel you need to change pro-woo people's minds about woo?

5. Do you accept wooists though their philosophy is opposite of yours?

6. Is non-woo the one true way?

 

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