Ex Christian Spirituality: The rough treatment

[VerbosityCat]

13 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Maybe I'm a heathen and don't know it?  

 

Where do you want to start? My primary goal would be to understand what you believe in regards to spirituality and why. I guess we'd need definitions or at least explanations as to what we are talking about to prevent what happened before.

 

HEHE maybe! Tell me where you want to start and I'll jump in. I just did a LONG reply in the spirituality forum to JoshPantera you might be interested in reading and maybe comment and discuss here.  Here's that post:

 

[VerbosityCat]

6 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

I'll distill this a little bit:

 

Assertion: I will only accept the efficacy of something if it will achieve the impossible for me. Right? This allows me to disregard it entirely when it fails to do. (black and white logic)

 

Science doesn't regrow fingers therefore science is worthless. <-- black and white logic.

 

My lawn mower cannot chop down a tree therefore: worthless.

When someone can pick up a semi-truck with a pair of tweezers, I'll believe in the power of tweezers but until then....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So true. We are talking about SUBTLE ENERGIES. what part of subtle energies is giving people the problem? Also, why do people who disregard the "power of prayer" conveniently ignore the placebo effect (which is more than just 'subjectively thinking you feel better') and the mind/body connection in the process of healing?

 

Another example besides your semi-truck/tweezers thing is... we are self-healing organisms. If I cut my finger, basically a type of "magic" happens where my body heals itself. (just because science found the "little elves" that do the healing and call them things like "cells" doesn't change the basic reality here ) But... I can't regrow limbs. (Though some species can.) But to say "since I can't regrow a limb, the body doesn't heal itself or grow new tissue" is absurd. And the people making these disingenuous arguments KNOW it's absurd.

[VerbosityCat]

14 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Maybe I'm a heathen and don't know it?  

 

Where do you want to start? My primary goal would be to understand what you believe in regards to spirituality and why. I guess we'd need definitions or at least explanations as to what we are talking about to prevent what happened before.

 

(note: capitalization is for emphasis on words, not "yelling" or "anger")

 

Beyond all THAT long esoteric stuff... the very basic general breakdown of "what I believe" and "Why"

 

I believe that we are spiritual beings having a human experience and that ultimately EVERYTHING is a part of god. From grass, to bees, to dogs and cats, to humans, etc. I believe in "souls" and that there is an evolution of both matter and spirit. I believe everything emanates from the mind of god in a sense but fully 100% accept evolution. Just because I think evolution happened and that some "outside god" didn't "create it" in some clunky weird bullshit mythological way does NOT mean I don't think it emanated out of God and IS god.

 

I don't believe this world/reality is all there is. I think "the gods" of the various religions are really just "the next level up" of soul development and that different religions/spiritual paths organically evolved to meet the spiritual growth needs of different peoples in different contexts and that imposing ANY religion onto another is harmful to them. I don't believe in any "one true truth" or one true religion and that all spiritual paths are different expressions of the divine mystery. I don't think atheists are "lesser beings". They are having a particular experience in this life and it is not my business or right to interfere with it, just as it is not their business or right to interfere with my experience in this life.

 

I personally pray to the heathen gods of my pre-christian ancestors because I most resonate with the value system, myths, stories of that people. It is the first and only thing after 20 years of spiritual wandering that felt like it BELONGED to me on a deep level and resonated in a way where I didn't feel like I was "pretending". It's just a part of me.  I see the gods as my ancestors within a larger group soul. They were at one time human and I believe current humans will one day be "gods".

 

Why do I believe all this? There is NO way to tell you WHY I believe all this... I have a lifetime of experiences and ideas that I have tried and tested and this is what WORKS for me. This makes me HAPPY. This makes me feel at peace and like the world is ultimately "okay". It is optimistic and hopeful and not nihilistic and it has made REAL measurable beneficial changes to my life and helped me to develop more into the person I want to be.

 

I think all spiritual paths are "right" in the sense that they all contain some truth that may help someone grow. But all are "wrong" in the sense that we are all like moronic 3  year olds trying to understand calculus.

 

As to "why do I even think there is ANY spiritual reality instead of NO spiritual reality" because I believe matter comes from consciousness and not the other way around. It's more elegant. It's more logical. With total materialistic atheism and evolution in that context, you have to explain WHERE ALL THE NEW INFORMATION COMES FROM. Like EVERY fucking change is a miracle. You can't just say "it's mutations" because you are talking about TOTALLY NEW SHIT coming out of nowhere. I can accept that it just does... NATURALLY but that's because I believe a consciousness animates everything ultimately. I understand you think that's "magical thinking" but I think thinking shit can just... arise for no goddamn reason is equally magical.

 

And Darwinian selection is not the magical explanation you think it is. YES I believe this happens, but it only explains HOW things are selected for and evolutionary changes happen. It doesn't explain how the options show up to begin with!

There is no changing my mind on this because I fundamentally cannot twist my mind into the goofy box where everything is material and nothing more. My brain simply DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. You can say my brain is faulty. And you have the right to that opinion, but you cannot say I have no integrity or that I'm  not being honest about my TRUE VIEWS, because I am.

 

So from that point, I explore all the different ways of viewing the world spiritually and over a long period of time, coming to believe it is nonsense to think a human being can fully comprehend "the truth" on any universal matters, whether spiritual or scientific, I have come to the view that it is not about "being right" but finding what "works for you". This is a highly personal journey.

 

I understand that hardline materialistic atheists absolutely reject anything that doesn't have a total empirical basis. FINE. But such people should at least admit that they are expressing THEIR value system. And that is about them. Not me.

 

So those are my opening thoughts.

[florduh]

10 minutes ago, VerbosityCat said:

Also, why do people who disregard the "power of prayer" conveniently ignore the placebo effect (which is more than just 'subjectively thinking you feel better') and the mind/body connection in the process of healing?

Because the "power" of prayer doesn't limit itself to the mind-body connection as demonstrated by the placebo effect. Clearly, one's mind can actually prompt the body to heal itself, within the standard limitations. Limb regeneration is out of the question but you can promote conditions that help the immune system do its work. One generally assumes that a prayer or other magical incantation can affect other people and things, but this has never been demonstrated any efficacy beyond chance. The placebo response affects only the patient who believes it. For these reasons I can dismiss prayer but recognize the placebo, though the placebo effect may be triggered by belief in prayer as well as belief in a sugar pill.

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Really the analogy is closer to you are claiming you have a grass fertiliser. You sprinkle it around, differing the quantities, sometimes watering sometimes not. Sometimes you will dance on the fertilised lawn.

 

99% of the time the lawn dies. 1% the lawn actually gets greener and you are claiming you have a fertiliser that works.

 

I'm saying that it doesn't appear your fertiliser works, in fact it seems to be more of a poison, and we haven't even determined if the 1% of the time is down to the 'fertiliser' or you just happened to water the grass plenty enough that it grew anyway. If you got it to 50/50 all you have is random chance. Once you are higher than 50/50 we can start saying that it appears your fert actually does do something that its claimed to do.

 

Meanwhile you are criticising me for pointing out that your fertiliser is unreliable and therefore I won't buy it until such a time as its shown to be reliable.

 

 

Did you try the fertilizer yourself? I mean really try it for a while. Or just read about studies done by other people who generally hate fertilizer related products?

[LogicalFallacy]

24 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Did you try the fertilizer yourself? I mean really try it for a while. Or just read about studies done by other people who generally hate fertilizer related products?

 

I assign a portion of trust relevant to the evidence provided. I don't generally count very highly the objections to a particular thing (If I did I'd be a creationist still) but by the evidence provided FOR a thing. A major problem with creationists is they spend a lot of time attacking science and talking about how people just hate god, but provide nix to actually show that their explanation is better.

 

Have you tried jumping off a building to really test for yourself whether its the fall the kills you or the impact factor? I'd say no because you take what you know, what evidence there is about humans jumping off tall objects, the scientific calculations that tell you the amount of force your body can withstand vs the force applied upon impact, and you come to the very reasonable conclusion that jumping off buildings is bad for your health. No need to personally try everything for yourself - or else we'd all be eyeballing the ocean and all coming to different unsupported conclusions.

 

However I am trying the pink roller skates thing... but it probably won't work due to my disbelief.... wait that's what they say about people not healed by prayer.

[midniterider]

8 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Come on Midnite, you can do better than a strawman. That wasn't what I was saying and you know it.

 

LF: I've told a number of Christians this; if you can pray to Jesus and get fingers to grow back you now have, at the least, a believer in the power of prayer. Similar to casting spells. Assuming you can show they work consistently I will believe in magic. 

 

...

 

There is a difference between growing back fingers and something working consistently. 

 

People I went to church with told me that Jesus consistently worked miracles in their life. Not aware of finger regrowth, however.

People who are into magic tell me of their consistent success. Once again, don't know about the fingers.

People who are not into woo tell me that science is consistent in its efficacy. Science? No fingers.

 

I'm not trying to strawman you. We just don't agree on woo, is all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I assign a portion of trust relevant to the evidence provided. I don't generally count very highly the objections to a particular thing (If I did I'd be a creationist still) but by the evidence provided FOR a thing. A major problem with creationists is they spend a lot of time attacking science and talking about how people just hate god, but provide nix to actually show that their explanation is better.

 

Fair enough.

 

Quote

 

Have you tried jumping off a building to really test for yourself whether its the fall the kills you or the impact factor? I'd say no because you take what you know, what evidence there is about humans jumping off tall objects, the scientific calculations that tell you the amount of force your body can withstand vs the force applied upon impact, and you come to the very reasonable conclusion that jumping off buildings is bad for your health. No need to personally try everything for yourself - or else we'd all be eyeballing the ocean and all coming to different unsupported conclusions.

 

I have not tried jumping off a building. I employ common sense like you do.

There is no need to personally try everything for myself, I agree.

 

Quote

 

However I am trying the pink roller skates thing... but it probably won't work due to my disbelief.... wait that's what they say about people not healed by prayer.

 

Belief is generally deemed to be an important ingredient in  magic, so  who knows what will happen. Has anyone given a time frame on this pink roller skate thing? I would say two or three weeks max otherwise we just increase the odds of random chance occurring. Anyone else have an opinion on a time frame? I havent' cast mine yet. I've been wasting too much time on writing this baloney instead.

 

I'm glad you brought up prayer. My question to myself is how to reconcile believing Jesus and prayer to be nonsense VS my choice to actually believe in magic. And that brings up an anecdote. Before I became a Christian, I was a heavy tobacco user. I'd tried quitting lots of times but wasn't successful. So one time I prayed to a non-descript god since I had no belief system yet, really... and was able to stop cold turkey. Was it god? Placebo effect? Orange Papers explanation? Dunno. But this may be a digression.

 

Reconciling disbelief in prayer or Jesus to my personal belief in magic: Christians don't do it right. Alright, now stop laughing. lol. I remember a lot of 'sending a quick prayer up to God' type of prayers, kind of a waste of time if you're not going to enter a trance/raise power/produce some gnosis , imo. Kind of like a hypnotherapist that doesn't relax you before giving a suggestion. From a chaos magic perspective, Christians aren't really very good at magic (aka prayer). Their technique sucks. Verbosity Cat said that magic is dealing with "subtle energies".  So imo you need all the help you can get. 

 

1. Christians may enter a trance if they are doing a mantra/speaking in tongues, praying or singing...but a lot of times, they are just in a beta state. Fail.

2. Make your intention a done deal. Either say it is happening or it has already happened. Christians say, "Lord, please find my car keys" instead of "I've found my car keys" or "I am finding my car keys" or "Jesus is leading me to my car keys." Dont use future tense. It's a fail.

3. Dont use negative words like no or not. "Jesus, please DONT let me lose my car keys again" becomes "Please let me loose my car keys again" with your subconscious.

 

There's a bunch of other things like correspondences that increase belief power that Christians dont use like casting during the full moon or new moon, or on a certain day or certain month that corresponds to what  you want.

 

There you have it LF. By atheist standards I am certifiably insane. lol. Have a good one.

 

 

[mwc]

12 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Did you try the fertilizer yourself? I mean really try it for a while. Or just read about studies done by other people who generally hate fertilizer related products?

     The sort of fertilizer you're suggesting that we all try isn't even known to actually do anything.  I spread it around and if I think that it's doing something then, well, I guess it's working otherwise I just keep on using it anyhow since that's what I do now.  No matter what happens I just keep tossing fertilizer around.  That's not really useful unless I have a need to spread fertilizer.

 

     And by fertilizer are we really talking about bullshit?

 

          mwc

 

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, mwc said:

     The sort of fertilizer you're suggesting that we all try isn't even known to actually do anything.  I spread it around and if I think that it's doing something then, well, I guess it's working otherwise I just keep on using it anyhow since that's what I do now.  No matter what happens I just keep tossing fertilizer around.  That's not really useful unless I have a need to spread fertilizer.

 

     And by fertilizer are we really talking about bullshit?

 

          mwc

 

 

Woo definitely isnt for everyone. We all have different interests and different talents. 

 

Ask a non woo atheist and they will give you a rundown on why woo is bs and does not work for them. 

 

Ask a prowoo person and they will tell you why it does work for them. 

 

We disagee about it. Thats ok.

[mwc]

47 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Woo definitely isnt for everyone. We all have different interests and different talents. 

 

Ask a non woo atheist and they will give you a rundown on why woo is bs and does not work for them. 

 

Ask a prowoo person and they will tell you why it does work for them. 

 

We disagee about it. Thats ok.

     Well, yeah.  If we agreed we'd probably be in the spirituality forum.  I thought this thread was here in the old Lion's Den so, you know, it would work differently than that.  I mean if a xian came here and said all this then said, "You know, atheists just don't think it works, but if you were a xian you'd think different" it wouldn't go over so well.  I guess I expected something different.  If this is the "rough treatment" for spiritualists I truly do feel sorry for each and every xian that happens along here.

 

          mwc

 

[florduh]

I think it would be interesting if our Christians had to post in the Spirituality Forum rather than the Den. Heads would explode.

[midniterider]

9 minutes ago, mwc said:

     Well, yeah.  If we agreed we'd probably be in the spirituality forum.  I thought this thread was here in the old Lion's Den so, you know, it would work differently than that.  I mean if a xian came here and said all this then said, "You know, atheists just don't think it works, but if you were a xian you'd think different" it wouldn't go over so well.  I guess I expected something different.  If this is the "rough treatment" for spiritualists I truly do feel sorry for each and every xian that happens along here.

 

          mwc

 

 

Maybe some of the players are tired of the same old debate.

[mwc]

1 minute ago, midniterider said:

 

Maybe some of the players are tired of the same old debate.

     Maybe.

 

          mwc

 

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, florduh said:

I think it would be interesting if our Christians had to post in the Spirituality Forum rather than the Den. Heads would explode.

 

Which heads?

[florduh]

14 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Which heads?

All of them. Imagine two opposing magical systems being prohibited from questioning each other.

[VerbosityCat]

23 hours ago, florduh said:

Because the "power" of prayer doesn't limit itself to the mind-body connection as demonstrated by the placebo effect. Clearly, one's mind can actually prompt the body to heal itself, within the standard limitations. Limb regeneration is out of the question but you can promote conditions that help the immune system do its work. One generally assumes that a prayer or other magical incantation can affect other people and things, but this has never been demonstrated any efficacy beyond chance. The placebo response affects only the patient who believes it. For these reasons I can dismiss prayer but recognize the placebo, though the placebo effect may be triggered by belief in prayer as well as belief in a sugar pill.

 

Okay so then we are talking about the limits of prayer then, not it's efficacy "at all". To me it's you say potato I say potahto when we are talking about placebo effect and mind/body connection or prayer.

 

I happen to agree with you with regards to prayer and "affecting others". This shit works by getting inside someone else's head, essentially. This is why I will tell a loved one I lit a candle for them because I can't "magic them better" but by letting them know I lit a candle for them, if this is something that holds power for them, that can help their  placebo effect/healing effect.

 

So I don't think me "lighting a candle" even though I do and do keep them in my thoughts because I love them, will "make them better" but if they KNOW I lit that candle and they believe that has power, it may add to the positive energy/impact of placebo effect etc.

 

It's like I have a friend who believes in Homeopathy. (like literally the "magic water" stuff). It's totally absurd but she has experienced REAL benefits to her sinus issues from using it. I would NEVER explain to her why homeopathy is bullshit because it's working for her through the placebo effect and if I tell her why it's bullshit and she believes me, then a harmless "cure" that is actually WORKING for her, stops working.

 

So yeah I'm with you on that level of things. Unless you can "get inside someone else's head" and make THEM do the work of placebo or nocebo effect for you, no, I don't believe it works that way. So we agree there.

[VerbosityCat]

6 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Maybe some of the players are tired of the same old debate.

 

I think it comes down to the fact that we do not CARE if people agree with us or not and Christians are trying to convert people. Like it takes two to have a "fight".

[VerbosityCat]

3 hours ago, florduh said:

All of them. Imagine two opposing magical systems being prohibited from questioning each other.

I wouldn't care. As long as they weren't trying to convert they could share their woo freely as far as I'm concerned.

 

(Note: I'm not arguing for this. I'm saying I specifically would not care. I don't mind interfaith discussions. But I also realize this whole site except the lion's den is a "safe space" for ex-Christians. So please don't misinterpret me. I'm just saying if the rules are nobody can question anybody then sure... that would be hilarious LOL)

[VerbosityCat]

21 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

LF: I've told a number of Christians this; if you can pray to Jesus and get fingers to grow back you now have, at the least, a believer in the power of prayer. Similar to casting spells. Assuming you can show they work consistently I will believe in magic. 

 

...

 

There is a difference between growing back fingers and something working consistently. 

 

People I went to church with told me that Jesus consistently worked miracles in their life. Not aware of finger regrowth, however.

People who are into magic tell me of their consistent success. Once again, don't know about the fingers.

People who are not into woo tell me that science is consistent in its efficacy. Science? No fingers.

 

I'm not trying to strawman you. We just don't agree on woo, is all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I want to know why science doesn't regrow fingers. Let's throw the whole thing out! I never realized until just this moment how important regrowing fingers is to ANY philosophy. Nothing can be true unless you can regrow fingers with it. I'm so glad I received this wisdom. Glory!

[Joshpantera]

One number and the mega ball. I got $4.00 out of the 1.6 billion dollar jackpot. 

 

But I'm gonna keep trying. 

 

 

 

Citation: http://loamooimoi.blogspot.com/2010/03/neville-goddard-techniques-lottery.html

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

I want to know why science doesn't regrow fingers. Let's throw the whole thing out! I never realized until just this moment how important regrowing fingers is to ANY philosophy. Nothing can be true unless you can regrow fingers with it. I'm so glad I received this wisdom. Glory!

 

Very quickly (I haven't had time to do your previous post justice in a reply.) Again this is a strawman, funny sure, but when actually discussing about prayer with fingers its because of the specific claims that God can heal, that he is all powerful, and can do anything. Great, so why doesn't he grow back fingers? Apparently he can create universes and raise the dead. However fingers growing back are an objective thing to test. There's no "I prayed and I feel better" Your finger either grows back or it doesn't. Science makes no claim it can grow back fingers. However it can give you artificial limbs so its already way ahead of the "consistency" curve than woo of any sort. (Midnite I want to talk with you about this... I had some thoughts a midnight (haha) but didn't write them down sadly)

 

Extrapolating this to woo, there is the claim that woo does stuff. For example saying a spell should have an effect on reality like making a person wear pink roller skates etc. Now if you can do that you should be able to do other things with spells/magic and it should be at least testable even if we are at a loss to explain the mechanism.

[midniterider]

15 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

One number and the mega ball. I got $4.00 out of the 1.6 billion dollar jackpot. 

 

But I'm gonna keep trying. 

 

 

 

Citation: http://loamooimoi.blogspot.com/2010/03/neville-goddard-techniques-lottery.html

 

Josh. This is the last straw. You are toying with woo here and it pains me to see you throw your life away ($2 at a time) on something illogical. Yes, I said woo. Even worse than woo. Pure one in a zillion chance. The lottery is woo because people get false hope. First they get this 'good feeling' (shudders at that), and people start having happy talk about what they would do with the money (camaraderie, fuck that!), they wait in lottery ticket lines joking and laughing ... and then  .... reality shits on them. /s

 

I guarantee that a 'real' atheist wouldn't be wasting their time on games of random chance with the odds stacked against them. /s

 

Hey, congrats on the $4.

 

[midniterider]

17 hours ago, VerbosityCat said:

 

Okay so then we are talking about the limits of prayer then, not it's efficacy "at all". To me it's you say potato I say potahto when we are talking about placebo effect and mind/body connection or prayer.

 

I happen to agree with you with regards to prayer and "affecting others". This shit works by getting inside someone else's head, essentially. This is why I will tell a loved one I lit a candle for them because I can't "magic them better" but by letting them know I lit a candle for them, if this is something that holds power for them, that can help their  placebo effect/healing effect.

 

So I don't think me "lighting a candle" even though I do and do keep them in my thoughts because I love them, will "make them better" but if they KNOW I lit that candle and they believe that has power, it may add to the positive energy/impact of placebo effect etc.

 

It's like I have a friend who believes in Homeopathy. (like literally the "magic water" stuff). It's totally absurd but she has experienced REAL benefits to her sinus issues from using it. I would NEVER explain to her why homeopathy is bullshit because it's working for her through the placebo effect and if I tell her why it's bullshit and she believes me, then a harmless "cure" that is actually WORKING for her, stops working.

 

So yeah I'm with you on that level of things. Unless you can "get inside someone else's head" and make THEM do the work of placebo or nocebo effect for you, no, I don't believe it works that way. So we agree there.

 

So are you saying that if someone's woo-ish thought process has a positive physical healing effect that you should not rob them of that by insisting their belief is crap?

Conversely, are you saying that by insisting someone's belief about their successful woo-based healing treatment is baloney that you may be harming them?

 

 

 

[midniterider]

16 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Very quickly (I haven't had time to do your previous post justice in a reply.) Again this is a strawman, funny sure, but when actually discussing about prayer with fingers its because of the specific claims that God can heal, that he is all powerful, and can do anything. Great, so why doesn't he grow back fingers? Apparently he can create universes and raise the dead. However fingers growing back are an objective thing to test. There's no "I prayed and I feel better" Your finger either grows back or it doesn't. Science makes no claim it can grow back fingers. However it can give you artificial limbs so its already way ahead of the "consistency" curve than woo of any sort. (Midnite I want to talk with you about this... I had some thoughts a midnight (haha) but didn't write them down sadly)

 

Extrapolating this to woo, there is the claim that woo does stuff. For example saying a spell should have an effect on reality like making a person wear pink roller skates etc. Now if you can do that you should be able to do other things with spells/magic and it should be at least testable even if we are at a loss to explain the mechanism.

 

I guess one difference between us is objective testing. You may need to apply testing to more, or possibly different things, than I do. Christian claims might raise a few more hackles on your neck than it does on mine. I realized that for a while I was going overboard identifying Christian posts on facebok, then ranting about them to my wife and feeling anger at these 'idiots' who merely clicked 'share.' I was actually wasting energy hating Christians/Christianity. lol I don't think that's logical. There's video games that need to be played! You know, useful shit.

 

Regarding finger regrow (extreme expectations)

 

Does something need to be all powerful to be useful? VC's friend uses homeopathy to heal her sinuses ... or maybe the placebo effect. Is that useful? Is that good or bad?

 

Neither of us are arguing in favor of Christianity (which claims omnipotence), nor do witchy people claim their magic can do 'anything', so should we retire the regrowing fingers argument in favor of some new point of contention?

 

Artificial limbs as well as everything else that science has given us, is awesome. There is no denying it. I use science created stuff all day. Science is great for some things. Materialism is great for living.

 

Is materialism what I 'should exclusively believe? Why?

Is woo something I 'should not' believe? Why not?

 

I've yet to give you a convincing argument to accept woo. My argument is not strong enough to overcome your bias and your preference.

You've yet to give me a convincing argument why woo is harmful. I was raised by agnostic atheists to use logic and I think so far that what I've heard about why woo is harmful is pretty much just bias and fluff.

 

I 'do' use logic where needed but at the same time I put a little woo spin on it for fun. I do woo and logic together.