Faith healing

[Kat34]

I was reading this biography of Charles Templeton (who wrote “Farewell to God”, which I’ve not read) and it mentions two instances of spontaneous healing after Charles prayed for two individuals. It doesn’t explain how he came to view these subsequent to losing his faith. I’ve often wondered how such things can be explained, or maybe they just can’t. I can see why they’d be seen as evidence for God though... though I imagine perhaps they happen in other faiths too. Any thoughts on how to reconcile such events with a non Christian worldview?

 

https://etb-former-fundamentalists.blogspot.com/2012/04/charles-templeton-inside-evangelism.html?m=1

[Dexter]

On 10/25/2018 at 9:46 AM, Kat34 said:

I was reading this biography of Charles Templeton (who wrote “Farewell to God”, which I’ve not read) and it mentions two instances of spontaneous healing after Charles prayed for two individuals. It doesn’t explain how he came to view these subsequent to losing his faith. I’ve often wondered how such things can be explained, or maybe they just can’t. I can see why they’d be seen as evidence for God though... though I imagine perhaps they happen in other faiths too. Any thoughts on how to reconcile such events with a non Christian worldview?

 

https://etb-former-fundamentalists.blogspot.com/2012/04/charles-templeton-inside-evangelism.html?m=1

 

Well, simply, somethings things happen. Even in non-religious, non-faith scenarios in hospitals, a body will do something totally unexpected without obvious explanation. A person expected to die gets better or something incurable just vanishes. This is not uncommon or undocumented. The reason I do not immediate jump to the divine as the reason for the anomaly is because if it was God or a spirit who did the healing, they are inconsistent AF. And that's the ultimate problem. A person may pray and against everyone's expectations a person gets better. Evidence of the divine, right? But would they have gotten better if the praying didn't occur? "Miraculous healings" do also occur in the absence of prayer so how do we resolve those?

 

At the end of the day, the only ones who can say they can perform miraculous healings reliably and consistently are charlatans. Other instances of faith healings have a lot of question marks and personal experience surrounding them. But to immediately point to the divine is a presupposition. Another flavor of "I can't explain it, therefore God."

 

But if you want to get into some really trippy and really well documented cases of bizarre medical effects happening, google 'The Placebo Effect'

[Joshpantera]

I've currently been reading about studies of these effects. And I agree with the sentiment below: 

 

13 minutes ago, Dexter said:

Well, simply, somethings things happen. Even in non-religious, non-faith scenarios in hospitals, a body will do something totally unexpected without obvious explanation. A person expected to die gets better or something incurable just vanishes. This is not uncommon or undocumented. The reason I do not immediate jump to the divine as the reason for the anomaly is because if it was God or a spirit who did the healing, they are inconsistent AF. And that's the ultimate problem. A person may pray and against everyone's expectations a person gets better. Evidence of the divine, right? But would they have gotten better if the praying didn't occur? "Miraculous healings" do also occur in the absence of prayer so how do we resolve those?

 

With the mind or some other explanation. 

[★ Citsonga ★]

Here is today's Curtis comic strip. I must concur with Curtis' thoughts.

[Vartan]

I think TV show healing is bull crap ~ but, I do believe it can be and  is done ~ not in Bible thrumping tent shows with shouting fresh water western preachers ~ but ```

[Hierophant]

Interesting topic. I am always frustrated by the lack of being able to know the answer. That was my biggest hangup in Christianity as well, I just wanted to know the answers, and to understand them. My initial deconversion started when all the various compartmentalized boxes of theology and reality started to overflow into each other. I could not mentally deal with so many contradictions coexisting at one time. I am still plagued by my desire to know. But more and more, I am trying to be okay with the fact that anything I may know is always tenative. This ties into the whole spontaneous healings. How is that accounted for in a strictly naturalistic world, it defies current science. As others stated, it could just be the brain doing something wacky, but how the hell does that happen? Wish I knew, like always.

[Questioningone]

I don’t trust faith healing. Lots of scam pastors and I also watched Derren Brown on this topic... it’s powerful what the mind can do. 

Lots of people have faith and still don’t get healed. 

Christianity talks about healing and that but I don’t believe all are healed just because the bible makes it out to be so

[florduh]

Sometimes people with sincere faith do not get healed and those with no faith whatsoever do. "Miracle" healings are not more prevalent in those with faith. It's silly to even entertain the validity of faith healing considering all the debunked charlatans and scientific inquiry that has been done. Heads up - this is the 21st Century and we know more about how things work than we used to.

[Kat34]

Thanks all. To be honest it’s something I know very little about, and I’ve not looked into it, I just remember reading a few examples in the past that struck me. Also not healing as such but I remember reading about C S Lewis praying that he could be with his wife in her suffering from cancer and he started to get pain in his bone marrow and then another time he prayed for her to get better in some way and her body started producing more of whatever this thing was and he simultaneously developed a deficiency in it so he thought God was taking from him to give to her. I can’t remember the details but stuff like this always seemed like evidence for little miracles. That and things like people praying and then receiving the exact amount of money they needed to keep their home for orphaned children going or whatever!

[Joshpantera]

This is just an aside, but I've been going over Dean Radin's scientific investigations of the paranormal and assorted magical practice oriented tests. Pod casts and interviews on the newest book, "Real Magic." Something interesting came up in a recent pod cast that relates to this conversation. Radin was asked about 'black magic' in the interview. His response was that shooting down the middle of esoteric literature and tradition, black magic is generally associated with influencing or manipulating some one else through your own mind, basically, without the other persons knowledge or consent. As in affecting some one else's free will or acting against their free will. Of course there's ton for people to argue just on that premise alone about whether or not anyone can actually do such a thing anyways, but that's not the point I'm after.

 

What Radin brought up is that when people are praying for someone else without the knowledge or consent of the person who's being prayed for, it's quite literally an act of 'black magic' that's really taking place through this mind oriented ritual (prayer). And he's right in that it's about at least trying to manipulate someone else against their own free will, even if the intention is a good one, like healing them or making something better. If the person doing the praying does so with consent of the other person, then it's a case of 'white magic.' But the kicker here is that praying and magic are not different. If praying is found to work, it's an act of magic that's found to work - whether white or black in nature. If it's found not to work, then it's a magical practice that isn't working. Prayer and magic are of the exact same basic principle and faith healing seems like a form of 'white magic'. 

 

Some do gooder from church (maybe your mom or grandmother even) praying towards affecting someone's will outside of their knowledge and consent, 'black magicians.'  

[L.B.]

On 11/15/2018 at 1:42 PM, Vartan said:

I think TV show healing is bull crap ~ but, I do believe it can be and  is done ~ not in Bible thrumping tent shows with shouting fresh water western preachers ~ but ```

 

Oh, yeah?

I just got out of the hospital after having a toe amputated. Tell whatever magical healer people you know to come find me on here and schedule a healing.

 

I'll wait.

[Mike]

I find it telling that God only gave the ability to regenerate limbs to salamanders.

And not one healer has ever restored a severed limb.

[mwc]

On 12/4/2018 at 8:23 AM, L.B. said:

 

Oh, yeah?

I just got out of the hospital after having a toe amputated. Tell whatever magical healer people you know to come find me on here and schedule a healing.

 

I'll wait.

     Okay.  I just hope you're ready to have your legs made the same length.

 

          mwc