Guest Berserk Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 Subject moved to Debates Section, starts out as argumentative rather than informative. nivek ******************** Every atheist and agnostic I know has been convinced, if not converted, by these two books: Malachi Martin, "Hostage to the Devil" and Howard Storm, "My Descent into Death". A well-educated skeptic once challenged me to convince him that the demonic realm exists. I could have shared some spine-tingling exorcisms performed by my family with astounding verifications. In fact, I may share some of these experiences in another post. But instead, I challenged him to read "Hostage to the Devil." I expected him to decline the challenge. I was wrong. Two weeks later, he sheepishly approached me and apologized that he was only able to cope with part of Martin's book. He had to stop when he actually began to feel the energy of evil and feel it so powerfully that he had developed acute insomnia. He was no longer a skeptic, but we lost contact; so I don't know how far his new theism extended. What makes Martin's book so potent is that it confines its focus to MAJOR exorcisms and describes their progress in numbing detail. To perform an exorcism, the Catholic church first explores every other alternative and enlists the service of psychologists and psychiatrists to try to deal with each supposed possession case in terms of psychopathology. Protestant churches are generally less rigorous in this regard and, in my view, often misdiagnose standard psychiastric disorders as possession cases. After this sifting process, Martin's cases are truly compelling. One of Martin's comments stands out. He insists that what convinces those present is not the dramatically lowering of room temperature as the entity manifests, not the fact that the entity knows those present better than they know themselves, not the psychokinetic unseen hand tossing objects (even heavy furniture) around the room, not the foreign languages being spoken by the entity, languages unknown to the victim, not even the diabolical writing on the victim's skin by an invisible hand. All these phenomena can manifest at a major exorcism. But, says Martin, what convinces those present, skeptic and believer alike, is THE PRESENCE, the unearthly presence of pure hatred. Martin claims, "There are no atheists at a major exorcism." I challenge you to read this book and discuss it with me, if for no other reason, than to get me to tone down my celebation of its power to persuade the skeptic. Howard Storm was a strident atheistic college professor. Yet during his NDE he finds himself in Hell where, after much torment, he is retrieved by Jesus and allowed a lengthy Q and A session that spans 4 chapters. What really makes the book compelling is the role of angels after his NDE in saving him from certain death and guiding his life journey. In one case, his new pastor simultaneously observes the interaction between Storm and the deceased Thomas Merton. I recently had two agnostics read this book and both were persuaded that its claims were genuine. I'd love to discuss "My Descent into Death" with you. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dio Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 Sorry, I don't have to time to read fairy tales. I'm way too busy with actual literature by people who can actually write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 Every atheist and agnostic I know has been convinced, if not converted, by these two books: Malachi Martin, "Hostage to the Devil" and Howard Storm, "My Descent into Death". Don Fascinating; every single ONE of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Rhino Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 ... I challenge you to read this book and discuss it with me, if for no other reason, than to get me to tone down my celebation of its power to persuade the skeptic... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> exorcism been there done that <yawn> And sorry but I don't have to read a book to get you to "tone down" on anything. That's what the ignore option is for. PR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 I celebrate my *powah* to tone down persons by practicing hard at range and X-ringing the half meter gongs at 750 meters and beyond... Sorry fundie, still more books based on the biggest scamboola ever written don't get much ink_time at daFatman's.. If yer so inclined to read "good mentally fulfilling fiction" try Robert A. Heinlein.. The Master got more correct in his prognosications that the bibull or any combination of the futurists and assorted jeanne dixon sorts.. He claimed no divination... n >quick edit... No one in anyones *camp* has sucessfully "exorcised" a Ballistics Party Ballot when such is well placed..< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 But, says Martin, what convinces those present, skeptic and believer alike, is THE PRESENCE, the unearthly presence of pure hatred. I have pure hatred, towards the religion that has caused me so much pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 Must be another hit-'n'-run spammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 Must be another hit-'n'-run spammer Shoot Khan, he's welcome to come back and debate his way into a good discussion, if he cares to do so.. This wasn't a book review, it was a setup for an argument, err, enlightened discussion.. n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 Every atheist and agnostic I know has been convinced, if not converted, by these two books: Malachi Martin, "Hostage to the Devil" and Howard Storm, "My Descent into Death"... BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......OH MY FUCKING GOD!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 I've read stuff on NDE's before. I've also read books on people who *think* they remember past lives. It still doesn't make me believe that the Bible is anything other than fiction. It makes me think that there MIGHT be something else out there that current science can't explain, but that we still don't have enough evidence for it. Until we have hard proof, I'm going to go on doubting. You're not going to convince a hard core athiest with stuff written in books by human beings, especially when they are written by Bible believers. The Bible is a book written by human beings, and athiests and agnostics by definition do not believe in it. I don't see why these people have such a need to convince others that fiction is real. It'd be like trying to convince a Southern Baptist that Harry Potter is the one true God...which we all know, won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 "There are no atheists at a major exorcism." Well hell ya there aren't any there. Cause how else could the myth persist otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Funny. The first thing I noticed is this goobs inability to COUNT. His Thread title indicated 3 books. He only babbled about 2. (or is the third "hidden from my sight" because I don't believe the BS?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidermonkey Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Need I say more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Berserk Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Wow! I just arrived here to test the waters. As I suspected, just a bunch of culturally unwashed buffoons incapable of seasoning their penchant for bluster with a modicum of rigor. You all remind me of a guy lurking in a tree during a George Whitefield sermon at the time of the first Great Awakening. He was too curious to stay away, but too threatened to listen. So he put his hands over his ears. Unfortunately, he was attacked by a couple of black flies and this forced him to swat them away. This in turn forced him to listen to Whitefield. His resistance was broken down and his conversion secured. I take it none of you dwebes has the guts to take your hands away from your ears and actually expose yourself to a novel argument. You actually imagine that by refusing to read a book that challenges your horizons, that this is some sign of your sophistication. Ha! That's OK with me too, I'll just rub your nose in it. As you will soon discover I'm no Fundamentalist and am more than a match for you historical illiterates (Masters from Princeton; Doctorate from Harvard). I've always believed you teach people how to treat you. I can play this game in an excruciatingly polite way if you guys display the slightest hint that you're house-broken. Or I can just toy with you and make constructive use of you as my whipping boy. I don't care. You decide. See you on other posts. Berserk P.S. I will probably post my 3rd book review tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 As I suspected, just a bunch of culturally unwashed buffoons incapable of seasoning their penchant for bluster with a modicum of rigor. Hey now, professor. You can zing us with meaningless phrases such as "culturally unwashed"....but.....I know you are but what am I? You all remind me of a guy lurking in a tree during a George Whitefield sermon at the time of the first Great Awakening. He was too curious to stay away, but too threatened to listen. So he put his hands over his ears. Unfortunately, he was attacked by a couple of black flies and this forced him to swat them away. This in turn forced him to listen to Whitefield. His resistance was broken down and his conversion secured. I take it none of you dwebes has the guts to take your hands away from your ears and actually expose yourself to a novel argument. You actually imagine that by refusing to read a book that challenges your horizons, that this is some sign of your sophistication. Ha! That's OK with me too, I'll just rub your nose in it. A novel argument? Some dude "died" and hallucinated hell? NDE's prove nothing, Berserk. As you will soon discover I'm no Fundamentalist and am more than a match for you historical illiterates (Masters from Princeton; Doctorate from Harvard). I've always believed you teach people how to treat you. I can play this game in an excruciatingly polite way if you guys display the slightest hint that you're house-broken. Or I can just toy with you and make constructive use of you as my whipping boy. I don't care. You decide. See you on other posts. Hahahahaha....oh boy. Let's whip em out and measure em too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 I see you as someone who is not interested in our point of view, only to assimilate us into your point of view. Well, Resistance is not futile, and as long as you are insensitive to our point of views and our reasons for our point of view, we have no business communicating with you. If we are to take you seriously, you must prove that you know how to prove a statement. Prove the Pythagorean Theorem in your own words, and then I will take you more seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpooky Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Hey, I'm willing to reevaluate my beliefs, but it's going to take evidence and not fantastic rhetoric. I'll try to skim through the book this summer though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirrti Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 First off, anyone with the intellegence of a gerbil knows if he wants to sway an audience into believing his point of view, you don't call them demeaning names and resort to juvenile behavior. That said, I've already read Howard Storm's story and what do I think of it? I think it's a load of crap because for one thing, one of my hobbies happens to be reading the near-death accounts of people. What I found they have in common is that those who come back say they came in contact with a being of unconditional love. There was no judgement and the experiencer was the only critic of his actions. The entity, whether a being of light or angelic life form would accept them regardless of how they lived their life. They would then come back with the message that we are to love one another and we all have a purpose in life and no one is insignificant. Storm's story teaches of the biblical god who's nothing like that. He seems to fit Storms personality more than the experiencers' description of the being they encounter. Storm's story further convinced me that the judgemental, wrathful god of the bible is fiction. The other stories convinced me there's something out there so big and magnificent we've yet to fully understand it. So no, I won't drink the grape Kool-Aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP1283 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 So no, I won't drink the grape Kool-Aid. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Wow! I just arrived here to test the waters. As I suspected, just a bunch of culturally unwashed buffoons incapable of seasoning their penchant for bluster with a modicum of rigor. I just spent yesterday at the most beautiful and moving wake for a local member of the Theater community here. A theater at our university was dedicated to this amazing man. Which is perhaps why I take greater offense today at such ignorant adjectives that I would have a few days ago. Do NOT apply the words "culturally unwashed" to me. You actually imagine that by refusing to read a book that challenges your horizons, that this is some sign of your sophistication. Ha! That's OK with me too, I'll just rub your nose in it. Do not apply such blanket words. I originally said no such thing about not picking up these books (if they were available at a used bookstore). However, as you've given us a taste of your prideful ego....I'm sure I can find something better to read. A shame, since I'm a big reader. It wouldn't have been much of a sacrifice of my time to give your books a look-see (2 or three days). As you will soon discover I'm no Fundamentalist and am more than a match for you historical illiterates (Masters from Princeton; Doctorate from Harvard). I've always believed you teach people how to treat you. P.S. I will probably post my 3rd book review tomorrow. Oh don't worry, I'm learning very quickly what type of person you are. Nice "save" on the 3rd book thing (ref my earlier post on your inability to count). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidermonkey Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 "Wow! I just arrived here to test the waters. As I suspected, just a bunch of culturally unwashed buffoons incapable of seasoning their penchant for bluster with a modicum of rigor. " You post a xtian book review in a ex-christian site and expect to get your ass kissed? There are better places for this sort of thing. Ex-C is not one of them. If I wanted to reconvert, I would have done so already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- AUB - Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 NDEs have been debunked, its a subjective effect caused by blood loss to the brain, a google search could give you all the data, lazy theist. If you choose to ignore what science has to say, then no sceptic will respect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 Berserk, man... Just walk away. Really. If that's all you got, you ain't got what it takes. You might think you do, but you don't. There people are too good for such weak attempts. Keep it up, and you'll wake up in excruciating pain, with a size seven sphincter. And provide me with much amusement. Hmmm.... on second thought, go on and keep trying. I'll go pop some popcorn.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirrti Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 http://www.near-death.com/storm.html Contains excerpts from Storm's book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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