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A Sermon for You Heathens

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Guest end3

I think we have all done this....our actions not congruent with our basal feelings towards someone....i.e., we don't act with love but choose our needs sometimes.  The key is there are many times where we don't realize in our time of need that our actions are hurting others....that if we had known, we wouldn't have chosen those actions or those words.  Our selfishness hurt someone else not as a function of intent, but as a function of ignorance.  Had I known X when I was twenty, I wouldn't have chosen an action that was not congruent with X.

 

It's not that people are necessarily bad, I think that it's largely a matter of ignorance.  They didn't want to hurt us....we didn't want to hurt them ultimately, but our actions at that time were a function of our history and circumstance.

 

My question is why are we unable, regardless of how much we would desire, to understand when our needs are greater than our love for others.  And then the ability to act in love rather than selfishness. 

 

Luke 6 supports this.....and I think Paul also said, paraphrasing....why do I do things I don't want to do. 

 

And the ultimate kicker....these "revelations" come to us over time....seemingly not on our schedule......as if there were an external something controlling our steps towards an "agape" love.

 

Pass the plate for me....this shit ain't free. 

 

 

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Sometimes our needs just genuinely are more important than others; because none of us is perfect and all of us, at times, are vulnerable.  There's nothing selfish in that.  It's just part of the human experience.

 

Deconversion would set you free from this kind of guilt, End3. 

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2 hours ago, end3 said:

I think we have all done this....our actions not congruent with our basal feelings towards someone....i.e., we don't act with love but choose our needs sometimes.  The key is there are many times where we don't realize in our time of need that our actions are hurting others....that if we had known, we wouldn't have chosen those actions or those words.  Our selfishness hurt someone else not as a function of intent, but as a function of ignorance.  Had I known X when I was twenty, I wouldn't have chosen an action that was not congruent with X.

 

It's not that people are necessarily bad, I think that it's largely a matter of ignorance.  They didn't want to hurt us....we didn't want to hurt them ultimately, but our actions at that time were a function of our history and circumstance.

 

My question is why are we unable, regardless of how much we would desire, to understand when our needs are greater than our love for others.  And then the ability to act in love rather than selfishness. 

 

Luke 6 supports this.....and I think Paul also said, paraphrasing....why do I do things I don't want to do. 

 

And the ultimate kicker....these "revelations" come to us over time....seemingly not on our schedule......as if there were an external something controlling our steps towards an "agape" love.

 

Pass the plate for me....this shit ain't free. 

 

 

 

End, you stupid douche nozzle,  

 

I ain't passing a plate for you but you're right, this shit ain't free. Ignorance like yours is expensive. 

 

Luke 6 supports this, and 'you think' you can paraphrase Paul the Apostle and make his salient and majestic point match your idiot musings?

You call this rambling stream of consciousness disjointed bullshit a sermon? 

There's going to be a kicker all right. The one where Jesus and the Apostles kick your ass for calling yourself a Christian while puking up this sissy pablum crap and calling it a sermon.  You'll be shitting sandals for weeks. 

 

I'm betting that the Heathens aren't going to be impressed with your little "sermon" either.

 

Other than that End, it's ok to put yourself first every now and again. God wants us to love our neighbor the way we love ourselves. Think about that.  It's not a sin for us to love and want and provide the best for ourselves. 

 

I'd be glad to discuss this with you End, but only if you understand that just now I don't have a ton of time to devote, and you'll have to bring Bible for what you assert, and not just some thoughts that drift through your brain.

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

End, you stupid douche nozzle,  

 

I ain't passing a plate for you but you're right, this shit ain't free. Ignorance like yours is expensive. 

 

Luke 6 supports this, and 'you think' you can paraphrase Paul the Apostle and make his salient and majestic point match your idiot musings?

You call this rambling stream of consciousness disjointed bullshit a sermon? 

There's going to be a kicker all right. The one where Jesus and the Apostles kick your ass for calling yourself a Christian while puking up this sissy pablum crap and calling it a sermon.  You'll be shitting sandals for weeks. 

 

I'm betting that the Heathens aren't going to be impressed with your little "sermon" either.

 

Other than that End, it's ok to put yourself first every now and again. God wants us to love our neighbor the way we love ourselves. Think about that.  It's not a sin for us to love and want and provide the best for ourselves. 

 

I'd be glad to discuss this with you End, but only if you understand that just now I don't have a ton of time to devote, and you'll have to bring Bible for what you assert, and not just some thoughts that drift through your brain.

 

 

 

 

Your recent reconversion appears to lack root brother.  I'll pray. 

Expensive indeed.  Lost friendships, failed marriages, bus'ed up families.  The fucking lawyers though.....you hear that S.....making money on pain...you dick.

 

Obviously the Spirit in not indwelling with you at this point, therefore I shall cite the verses I mention.

 

Luk 6:27

Unchecked Copy BoxLuk 6:27 - “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Unchecked Copy BoxLuk 6:28 - bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Unchecked Copy BoxLuk 6:29 - If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

Unchecked Copy BoxLuk 6:30 - Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

Unchecked Copy BoxLuk 6:31 - Do to others as you would have them do to you.
 
Romans 7:15-20 New International Version (NIV)

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Footnotes:

  1. Romans 7:18 Or my flesh

Specifically the verses from Romans....this passage pins it down.  Again the question is why would God not allow for us to see fully when our desire IS to see fully....even Paul apparently. 

 

Peace to you brother.......oh, and you too Prof.  Not you S, you're a dick.

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9 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Sometimes our needs just genuinely are more important than others; because none of us is perfect and all of us, at times, are vulnerable.  There's nothing selfish in that.  It's just part of the human experience.

 

Deconversion would set you free from this kind of guilt, End3. 

I do get set free when the revelation finally hits home.  It's just not on the timetable I would desire.

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4 hours ago, end3 said:

I do get set free when the revelation finally hits home.  It's just not on the timetable I would desire.

Imperfect timing is also a part of the human condition; as are imperfect desires, I might add.  Accept yourself as you are, even if jesus doesn't. 

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Free to kiss God's butt forever.

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14 hours ago, duderonomy said:

And the ultimate kicker....these "revelations" come to us over time....seemingly not on our schedule......as if there were an external something controlling our steps towards an "agape" love.

And that just pisses me off. Why didn't god let us know loud and clear and immediately, so we can hear and understand, during times of great turmoil and stress, when we tend to be foggy brained and not thinking well,  that a different action is best. Noooooooooo he is totally silent while things are being f***ed  up. AND, then later on here comes the flood of "dam" I coulda and shoulda done or said this or that and there would have been no or less hurt, suffering, permanent damage etc. God is always silent until AFTER things get messed up, THEN we realize and feel bad about the shouldas and couldas.  Where were the three stooges DURING the important event? Off to the side taking it all in, watching the show and laughing at us stupid humans??? I started deconverting when I realized the help was never available, especially at the times I needed it the most!

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18 hours ago, NeverHealed52Years said:

And that just pisses me off. Why didn't god let us know loud and clear and immediately, so we can hear and understand, during times of great turmoil and stress, when we tend to be foggy brained and not thinking well,  that a different action is best. Noooooooooo he is totally silent while things are being f***ed  up. AND, then later on here comes the flood of "dam" I coulda and shoulda done or said this or that and there would have been no or less hurt, suffering, permanent damage etc. God is always silent until AFTER things get messed up, THEN we realize and feel bad about the shouldas and couldas.  Where were the three stooges DURING the important event? Off to the side taking it all in, watching the show and laughing at us stupid humans??? I started deconverting when I realized the help was never available, especially at the times I needed it the most!

A couple things here NH.  I definitely see your point.  It's like why now, after the train wreck.  On one hand I feel regretful for not understanding any better, but on the other hand feeling thankful I think I now know the lesson for the future. 

 

And then there are the scriptures that say move on because we are being moved towards holiness, I gather. 

 

But for me, it's easy to play the blame game, not towards God really,  but towards my family, my father especially, for not teaching me any better. 

 

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4 hours ago, end3 said:

but on the other hand feeling thankful I think I now know the lesson for the future. 

 

And then there are the scriptures that say move on because we are being moved towards holiness, I gather. 

 

But for me, it's easy to play the blame game, not towards God really,  but towards my family, my father especially, for not teaching me any better. 

People like you need to join the real human race... starting at conception,  24/7/365  rage, hate, anger, malice, manipulation, beatings for anything, everything and nothing, until the welts on my body would bleed and stick to the chair at school.  A Texas Baptist preacher father and mother who think you have to beat out of children what you don't want in them; including an imagined look on their face that you don't care for. (teaching me a lesson? Being moved towards holiness?).

And tells my sister to stop the temper tantrums and fits her severely autistic child has; there is nothing wrong with him he just isn't disciplined enough! This behavior can be whipped out of him. She needs to whip him more.

 

And lets move on to adulthood...relentless physical challenges one after another endlessly and relentlessly(I still have every one of them) while doing EVERYTHING possible, mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, financially, medically, holistically, lifestyle etc. etc. To stop, prevent, reverse  mitigate.....and the shit just keeps coming at me..(teaching me a lesson?).. WHILE serving GOD 100%, all-in, living for him, renewing my mind, building and keeping strong faith, loving and turning the other cheek , 100% forgiving my crazy and violent misguide parents and sincerely loving them anyway, helping them, helping others, giving money, food, clothes, furniture etc. to the poor....

AND not one tiny bit of healing or preventing help from the three stooges not even one time for one problem.  (teaching me a lesson?).

 

That my friend is the real world for real people...not the Christians who tell me crap like; God is perfecting me; teaching me a lesson; disciplining me for my sins; and must have a really GREAT and SPECIAL PURPOSE later on for me to LET me suffer so much;  and I obviously don't have real faith or enough faith or the right kind of faith;  or I must have deep sinful or wrong attitudes, wrong thinking; or seek only the healer not the healing (I did that for a decade or two); or I didn't plant enough seed;  And my all-time favorite, I just don't know how to receive, he WANTS to heal me but I WONT LET HIM...
all the Christian crap in some ways was worse then the madness and insanity my crazy maker (a psychologist told me that is what they call moms like mine) mom and harsh, critical, judgmental, violent, coldhearted, zero compassion for human suffering (he thinks sickness is in our heads we make it up we are faking it, buck up ignore it and keep going), dad said and did to me.

 

I told God repeatedly, hey fine, OK, the upbringing from hell. Many people have to endure and go through things. BUT the relentless Physical problem hell for the rest of my life too?

 

Good Greif, God give people one or the other if you think you need to ..But NOT BOTH. It is just too much to deal with both!

 

Your evil God (who is really the devil,  they are the same entity, the Warrior god of destruction named Yahweh) didn't give a dam and didn't hear one word of this.

 

And there is  more...this is the readers digest highlights only version of my life.

And for the record, I did not cause my own problems in life like a lot of people do with their habits, choices, lifestyles, vices, abuses, neglects etc. I took actions and made choices and lived life in such a way to PREVENT, mitigate, reverse problems. I was very diligent and very careful and took excellent care of myself in every way. Still do. But in addition to a lifetime of health challenges, now I get to deal with ALL of the same health issues that getting old brings to people who took less care of themselves, who ignored/neglected or abused their health/bodies. Isn't life grand!

 

End3, join the real world...if I see one more Christian  who had such an easy life that they are beautiful, healthy, perfect and never have had a pimple or a cavity and they fall apart when they have a cold sore on their lip and say to me all upset and emotional "how do you stand it" (meaning my numerous relentless physical challenges) I might just have no choice but to resort to murder :) 

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2 hours ago, NeverHealed52Years said:

People like you need to join the real human race... starting at conception,  24/7/365  rage, hate, anger, malice, manipulation, beatings for anything, everything and nothing, until the welts on my body would bleed and stick to the chair at school.  A Texas Baptist preacher father and mother who think you have to beat out of children what you don't want in them; including an imagined look on their face that you don't care for. (teaching me a lesson? Being moved towards holiness?).

And tells my sister to stop the temper tantrums and fits her severely autistic child has; there is nothing wrong with him he just isn't disciplined enough! This behavior can be whipped out of him. She needs to whip him more.

 

And lets move on to adulthood...relentless physical challenges one after another endlessly and relentlessly(I still have every one of them) while doing EVERYTHING possible, mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, financially, medically, holistically, lifestyle etc. etc. To stop, prevent, reverse  mitigate.....and the shit just keeps coming at me..(teaching me a lesson?).. WHILE serving GOD 100%, all-in, living for him, renewing my mind, building and keeping strong faith, loving and turning the other cheek , 100% forgiving my crazy and violent misguide parents and sincerely loving them anyway, helping them, helping others, giving money, food, clothes, furniture etc. to the poor....

AND not one tiny bit of healing or preventing help from the three stooges not even one time for one problem.  (teaching me a lesson?).

 

That my friend is the real world for real people...not the Christians who tell me crap like; God is perfecting me; teaching me a lesson; disciplining me for my sins; and must have a really GREAT and SPECIAL PURPOSE later on for me to LET me suffer so much;  and I obviously don't have real faith or enough faith or the right kind of faith;  or I must have deep sinful or wrong attitudes, wrong thinking; or seek only the healer not the healing (I did that for a decade or two); or I didn't plant enough seed;  And my all-time favorite, I just don't know how to receive, he WANTS to heal me but I WONT LET HIM...
all the Christian crap in some ways was worse then the madness and insanity my crazy maker (a psychologist told me that is what they call moms like mine) mom and harsh, critical, judgmental, violent, coldhearted, zero compassion for human suffering (he thinks sickness is in our heads we make it up we are faking it, buck up ignore it and keep going), dad said and did to me.

 

I told God repeatedly, hey fine, OK, the upbringing from hell. Many people have to endure and go through things. BUT the relentless Physical problem hell for the rest of my life too?

 

Good Greif, God give people one or the other if you think you need to ..But NOT BOTH. It is just too much to deal with both!

 

Your evil God (who is really the devil,  they are the same entity, the Warrior god of destruction named Yahweh) didn't give a dam and didn't hear one word of this.

 

And there is  more...this is the readers digest highlights only version of my life.

And for the record, I did not cause my own problems in life like a lot of people do with their habits, choices, lifestyles, vices, abuses, neglects etc. I took actions and made choices and lived life in such a way to PREVENT, mitigate, reverse problems. I was very diligent and very careful and took excellent care of myself in every way. Still do. But in addition to a lifetime of health challenges, now I get to deal with ALL of the same health issues that getting old brings to people who took less care of themselves, who ignored/neglected or abused their health/bodies. Isn't life grand!

 

End3, join the real world...if I see one more Christian  who had such an easy life that they are beautiful, healthy, perfect and never have had a pimple or a cavity and they fall apart when they have a cold sore on their lip and say to me all upset and emotional "how do you stand it" (meaning my numerous relentless physical challenges) I might just have no choice but to resort to murder :) 

Have had my turn in the barrel NH, but not to the extent you describe.  Not going to try and put my Christian spin on your life, but if you would like me to, I will.  Not sure how to help other than to listen or say I'm sorry for the difficult life.  If you need to shoot, if you would just shoot off a toe or something, I might could do without a toe. 

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btw... our family had a sailboat when I was younger...your profile says you sail.  Say something in sail....starboard, port, halyard, jib, main sail....boom,  

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All my life I was indirectly told others' needs are greater than my own. My family needs me to conform. My church needs me to conform. And above all, god needs me to conform. My needs didn't come first, it was all about being a good believer, and serving god, and others, and then myself.

 

I hurt my family immensely by leaving the church. But guess what - I did not have the responsibility of sparing them this, as I was taught all my life. My needs were greater, finally. And I was allowed to act on them, to become who I really am, finally.

It's normal and acceptable to have needs. One shouldn't have to kill off an essential part of yourself to serve an invisible being, and others. The number one harm the church will do to you, is that it teaches you to ignore your own needs, and that if you're human, and struggling, and need to put your own needs first, that it's wrong.

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34 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

 One shouldn't have to kill off an essential part of yourself to serve an invisible being, and others.

 

A 'supreme' being doesn't need servants, nor worship, nor anything.

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28 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

A 'supreme' being doesn't need servants, nor worship, nor anything.

I don't think that's the point

 

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1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

All my life I was indirectly told me others' needs are greater than my own. My family needs me to conform. My church needs me to conform. And above all, god needs me to conform. My needs didn't come first, it was all about being a good believer, and serving god, and others, and then myself.

 

I hurt my family immensely by leaving the church. But guess what - I did not have the responsibility of sparing them this, as I was taught all my life. My needs were greater, finally. And I was allowed to act on them, to become who I really am, finally.

It's normal and acceptable to have needs. One shouldn't have to kill off an essential part of yourself to serve an invisible being, and others. The number one harm the church will do to you, is that it teaches you to ignore your own needs, and that if you're human, and struggling, and need to put your own needs first, that it's wrong.

Why can there not be both....who we are as well as understanding that each of us are capable of understanding that each of us needs grace.  Even Paul, as mentioned earlier, states that he does what he does not wish to do.  Jesus seemingly understood his relationship with God....knowing his purpose and who he was while simultaneously showing grace. 

 

And if I'm betting TS, you are more godly now than you were.....am I wrong?

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12 hours ago, end3 said:

Why can there not be both....who we are as well as understanding that each of us are capable of understanding that each of us needs grace.  Even Paul, as mentioned earlier, states that he does what he does not wish to do.  Jesus seemingly understood his relationship with God....knowing his purpose and who he was while simultaneously showing grace. 

 

And if I'm betting TS, you are more godly now than you were.....am I wrong?

No, I am not a "godly" person at all, as you put it, and I don't use that kind of terminology because I'm an atheist. I would call myself a person with empathy who doesn't believe in harming people, who strives to treat others like I would like to be treated. There can certainly be both as you put it...look out for the interests of others as well as yourself. That does not however mean I am obligated the put the interests of others before myself. The boundary lies where I start to suffer myself as a result of doing so. As for Paul, I have nothing positive to say about that misogynistic chauvinist whose doctrines determined much of my life in a "Pauline" church, so you'll have to excuse my gag reflex every time he is mentioned.

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17 hours ago, end3 said:

 

And if I'm betting TS, you are more godly now than you were.....am I wrong?

 

Godly, like drowning all of humanity in a great flood, for example?

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2 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Godly, like drowning all of humanity in a great flood, for example?

Or killing a new born to punish a man for having sex with another mans wife and having the husband killed in battle. What did the baby do??? This mental issue with god punishing others for what someone else did is horrific. Like us.. we are sinners and need saving because those dopy clots in the garden of Eden exercised free will. I didn't eat the fricking apple - why blame me? I'm sure some political ideologies these days get their ideas from the bible. Like a family is cut off from god for 10 generations because great grandpappy did something offensive to god.

 

What heathens say to god: You're offended!? So fucking what!?

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36 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Or killing a new born to punish a man for having sex with another mans wife and having the husband killed in battle. What did the baby do??? This mental issue with god punishing others for what someone else did is horrific. Like us.. we are sinners and need saving because those dopy clots in the garden of Eden exercised free will. I didn't eat the fricking apple - why blame me? I'm sure some political ideologies these days get their ideas from the bible. Like a family is cut off from god for 10 generations because great grandpappy did something offensive to god.

 

What heathens say to god: You're offended!? So fucking what!?

Thanks guys for picking the godly concept apart, I couldn't be bothered. I mean how many times have we had this conversation on this site@end3 and yet you persist in using concepts that most of us take issue with. Nope, we ain't godly, cus your god can be pretty much called every derogatory name under the sun for his behavior. 

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On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 12:02 PM, end3 said:

 If you need to shoot, if you would just shoot off a toe or something, I might could do without a toe. 

I have been very ill for a week and not in the greatest mood right now....soooo don't tempt me  viking.gif.42b5d0de1602d5acffb02bc57ee5ed76.gif

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On 11/20/2018 at 10:20 PM, end3 said:
On 11/20/2018 at 9:51 PM, midniterider said:

A 'supreme' being doesn't need servants, nor worship, nor anything.

I don't think that's the point

 

 

End, that's exactly the point. 

 

In fact, it's the ONLY point.    The rest is chaff, counter measures, projection, excuses, rationalizations, and fear. 

 

If God is almighty and going to 'cast' me into Hell, or if I'm going to be 'saved' and go to Heaven in your particular religious scenario, who cares? Nothing I can do about it. Choices have been made, paths determined, and outcomes decided before I was conceived and in fact, before Adam and Eve were conceived, blah blah blah...

 

But if  Biblegod created humans, and a scenario where humans would have to worship him and pray to him and proselytize for him, then he did it because he is weak and needs those things. Otherwise he could have just not created anything and kept to himself, needing nothing. No need to do anything, no need to create anything, no need to be worshiped, no need for anything. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

End, that's exactly the point. 

 

In fact, it's the ONLY point.    The rest is chaff, counter measures, projection, excuses, rationalizations, and fear. 

 

If God is almighty and going to 'cast' me into Hell, or if I'm going to be 'saved' and go to Heaven in your particular religious scenario, who cares? Nothing I can do about it. Choices have been made, paths determined, and outcomes decided before I was conceived and in fact, before Adam and Eve were conceived, blah blah blah...

 

But if  Biblegod created humans, and a scenario where humans would have to worship him and pray to him and proselytize for him, then he did it because he is weak and needs those things. Otherwise he could have just not created anything and kept to himself, needing nothing. No need to do anything, no need to create anything, no need to be worshiped, no need for anything. 

 

 

Ok, this make decent sense...even to me.  But let's suppose that God created the autonomous creation, humanity.......key word autonomous.  So much so, that the lessons this being would know vs. the autonomous creations is starkly different.  Everyone here seems to be in agreement that A&E were ignorant yet had the potential for "human nature".  I think it's fair to say they had both sides of the coin. 

 

Whether we use the language godly, or mature, or knowledgeable, what have you, I think the truth remains the same....that we are moving towards the same understanding of ourselves and care for others.

 

One of you says, where was God?  In the pew in a book in front of you?  Around you? In your heart?

 

You look at the "evil" processes God uses to move an autonomous being towards love and let me know how you would do it differently.......without taking the autonomy away.

 

Here's the verse I was thinking about:   (Sounds more like instruction and warning than predestination).

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:5 - For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:6 - and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:7 - and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:8 - For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:9 - But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:10 - Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[fn] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,

 

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4 hours ago, end3 said:

Ok, this make decent sense...even to me.  But let's suppose that God created the autonomous creation, humanity.......key word autonomous.  So much so, that the lessons this being would know vs. the autonomous creations is starkly different.  Everyone here seems to be in agreement that A&E were ignorant yet had the potential for "human nature".  I think it's fair to say they had both sides of the coin. 

 

Whether we use the language godly, or mature, or knowledgeable, what have you, I think the truth remains the same....that we are moving towards the same understanding of ourselves and care for others.

 

One of you says, where was God?  In the pew in a book in front of you?  Around you? In your heart?

 

You look at the "evil" processes God uses to move an autonomous being towards love and let me know how you would do it differently.......without taking the autonomy away.

 

Here's the verse I was thinking about:   (Sounds more like instruction and warning than predestination).

 

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:5 - For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;

 

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:6 - and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;

 

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:7 - and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.

 

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:8 - For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:9 - But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

 

Unchecked Copy Box2Pe 1:10 - Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[fn] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,

 

More of the same autonomy ie free will argument. 

We aren't moving anywhere. Human nature is human nature and can be kind, loving, altruistic, cowardly, cruel, or utterly depraved depending on the circumstances and the people involved. 

The whole Adam and Eve thing has been debunked so many times over on this site already. You persist in discussing things here with us as if we approach things from the same basis. We do not. Engage seriously in the actual debate: the lack of evidence for any deity and our need to worship one. 

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Guest end3
1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

More of the same autonomy ie free will argument. 

We aren't moving anywhere. Human nature is human nature and can be kind, loving, altruistic, cowardly, cruel, or utterly depraved depending on the circumstances and the people involved. 

The whole Adam and Eve thing has been debunked so many times over on this site already. You persist in discussing things here with us as if we approach things from the same basis. We do not. Engage seriously in the actual debate: the lack of evidence for any deity and our need to worship one. 

You're free to stop participating...

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