LogicalFallacy

Shooting yourself in the foot - Pride parade bans police from supporting

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Auckland pride has banned police in uniforms from marching to show support for the LGBT community.... *facepalm* So you are banning people who might want to support you because they are wearing the 'wrong clothes'. What are you... a fucking religion?

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/11/auckland-pride-parade-loses-support-over-uniformed-police-ban.html

 

So much smh in this one. Good on the Rainbow trust for pulling funding from Auckland pride.

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All the extremes are shooting themselves in the foot.  I understand that some female celebrities are pulling away from the MeToo movement because high profile Muslim members and others are supporting openly anti-semitic Louis Farrakhan.  Feminists can't stand Transwomen because that sort of "dilutes" feminism.  White progressives claim white people are racist without apparently looking in the mirror.  The MeToo movement wants every accusation to be accepted as fact despite the actual fact that humans can lie - even women - and because of that, due process is absolutely essential.  And a female Latino(a?) manager of a Chipotle restaurant is fired for telling black men (known to "dine and dash") that they must pay first before receiving food!  Wait, she's female and Latina - how can she be racist?  How can you fire a woman that has achieved a level of power sought after by feminists?  Where are the feminist activists crying foul?  I don't know which "victim" I'm supposed to advocate for here.  It's completely insane and I don't know whether to laugh or cry!?!

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Ok, I seem to be on a rant - sorry!  I’m better with words than numbers, but let me see if I can calculate that last one out.

 

He is black and a man.  Being black makes him a victim automatically (+1), but being a man makes him an oppressor (-1).  However, since being black negates his male oppressiveness, he shouldn’t lose that point, so he gets a victim rating of 1.  She is female and Latina.  Each of those gets a point for sexism and racism, so she gets a 2.  Wait, his name sounds vaguely Muslim, so presuming he is a Muslim to some degree, he gets a point, so now they’re even.  But wait again!  She could be an immigrant or the child of an immigrant, giving her another point!  And did the story mention he had spent time in prison?  If so, he was undoubtedly there only because he is a black man, giving him another point for racism . . . 

 

Do they actually do this in their heads when deciding who to advocate for!?!

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Oh and what about the trans folk that think people should date them no matter what their preference is?  Gawd!  I need to go to bed.  Goodnight!

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22 hours ago, Daffodil said:

Oh and what about the trans folk that think people should date them no matter what their preference is?  Gawd!  I need to go to bed.  Goodnight!

 

Holy shit Daffodil you were in epic rant mode. I agree with what you've said in your posts above. Good points.

 

Happily a lot of the examples mentioned are from vocal minorities. I know of trans people hammering other trans over the last point you made. Blair white springs to mind. 

 

 

An update on the op news item: a number of other organisations have pulled funding to show solidarity with the police. Good to see some action on this nonsense. I might be liberal but I hate being associated with crazed out fuckwits. 

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On 11/20/2018 at 12:58 AM, Daffodil said:

 I don't know whether to laugh or cry!?!

As I was reading your post, I was wondering how to give you both a laughing and crying vote. It can't be done. Nonetheless, I was thinking the same as you by the time I got finished reading it.

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     Is this a case of pride going before the fall?

 

          mwc

 

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I think it's naive to conclude that historically, there haven't been tensions between the LGBTQ community and police forces, and that these have no bearing on the current situation. Maybe NZ should look further into the matter as is occurring here https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/11/24/pride-toronto-embarks-on-cross-country-federally-funded-examination-of-policing-problems.html

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27 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I think it's naive to conclude that historically, there haven't been tensions between the LGBTQ community and police forces, and that these have no bearing on the current situation. Maybe NZ should look further into the matter as is occurring here https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/11/24/pride-toronto-embarks-on-cross-country-federally-funded-examination-of-policing-problems.html

 

Oh sure there have historically. But the police have become much more accepting in recent years.

 

To go and then stamp on them for past issues when they are now trying to support you is just stupid. All this has done is result in multiple large organisations pulling support for the Auckland parade and transferring it to the Wellington one where the LGBT community there are happy for support they receive.

 

The problem is that people never end up moving beyond historical grievances because they keep returning to them. The police have acknowledged that in the past they were not as open, (entire society was not as open) to essentially punish them now is silly. What's more, this furore is kicked up by a select few - the majority of the LGBT community in Auckland wanted the police there.

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39 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Oh sure there have historically. But the police have become much more accepting in recent years.

 

To go and then stamp on them for past issues when they are now trying to support you is just stupid. All this has done is result in multiple large organisations pulling support for the Auckland parade and transferring it to the Wellington one where the LGBT community there are happy for support they receive.

 

The problem is that people never end up moving beyond historical grievances because they keep returning to them. The police have acknowledged that in the past they were not as open, (entire society was not as open) to essentially punish them now is silly. What's more, this furore is kicked up by a select few - the majority of the LGBT community in Auckland wanted the police there.

There's a difference here in that it hasn't been historical in any sense, we just had the police bungle up the case of a serial killer who was targeting that community:

"Toronto police have been criticized for failing to solve numerous cases where men went missing in Toronto’s Gay Village. Community members believed there was a serial killer on the loose for many years. Landscaper Bruce McArthur now faces murder charges in the deaths of eight men, all with ties to the city’s Gay Village."

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And you believe that bungling up a case is grounds for rejecting police support for a cause that needs support?

 

This is why I said it's shooting themselves in the foot. Another way of saying it is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

 

It's very short term thinking to go and reject offers of support from people previously resistant to offering that support. It's like a drowning man refusing to take the hand of a person that had slapped him the night previous. 

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1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

There's a difference here in that it hasn't been historical in any sense, we just had the police bungle up the case of a serial killer who was targeting that community:

"Toronto police have been criticized for failing to solve numerous cases where men went missing in Toronto’s Gay Village. Community members believed there was a serial killer on the loose for many years. Landscaper Bruce McArthur now faces murder charges in the deaths of eight men, all with ties to the city’s Gay Village."

I realize you are not necessarily agreeing with this mentality, but the truth of crime investigation is that more often than not, crimes are never solved until someone spills the secrets.  Police can only go so far in interrogating people, in following leads, etc. and successful serial killers are only successful because they are very good at what they do.  They frequently are aware of the kinds of evidence police are looking for and take pains to hide it.  Some of the most successful serial killers here in the states are only now getting prosecuted because a relative decided to get a DNA test done and it led to old evidence from decades ago.  We had a case several years ago where a woman was found murdered in her home and everyone was sure her husband had done it, but there was never enough evidence to take him to trial.  About 5 years later, the killer threatened to kill his girlfriend "like I killed that lady!"  The girlfriend went to the police and the whole crazy story came out.  The murdered woman had worked at a bank and the killer thought he could kidnap her, take her to the bank and get her to open the safe.  When she tried to explain to him that she did not know the combination and could never get it open, he got angry and killed her.  The poor husband had to spend 5 years with everyone he knew thinking he had killed his wife when he had nothing to do with it!  There was absolutely nothing remotely connecting the real killer to the woman and that is why the police never solved it on their own.  Someone with loose lips is the most common way crimes actually get solved in the real world.  Unfortunately, civilians watch TV shows where investigators find all kinds of clues left by hapless criminals in pristine conditions, get results back from DNA, blood, soil tests the same day (this usually takes months as the labs are overloaded with samples from other crimes), seem to have access to online info that no one in the real world has, have a whole army of investigators working on the same case (when there is more likely only one or two working on a case), and there is always some investigator with superhuman ability to deduce what happened -  and the crime is solved in days or hours rather than weeks or months as is usually the case.  So everyone thinks the "real" police are incompetent or flat out corrupt when that just isn't reality.

 

Sorry for the long post, but this is a sore spot for a police wife!

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And big fights breaking out between special interest groups

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/11/louisa-wall-stokes-outrage-with-pride-parade-terf-comments.html

 

Even feminists are in the gun on this one.

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2 hours ago, Daffodil said:

I realize you are not necessarily agreeing with this mentality, but the truth of crime investigation is that more often than not, crimes are never solved until someone spills the secrets.  Police can only go so far in interrogating people, in following leads, etc. and successful serial killers are only successful because they are very good at what they do.  They frequently are aware of the kinds of evidence police are looking for and take pains to hide it.  Some of the most successful serial killers here in the states are only now getting prosecuted because a relative decided to get a DNA test done and it led to old evidence from decades ago.  We had a case several years ago where a woman was found murdered in her home and everyone was sure her husband had done it, but there was never enough evidence to take him to trial.  About 5 years later, the killer threatened to kill his girlfriend "like I killed that lady!"  The girlfriend went to the police and the whole crazy story came out.  The murdered woman had worked at a bank and the killer thought he could kidnap her, take her to the bank and get her to open the safe.  When she tried to explain to him that she did not know the combination and could never get it open, he got angry and killed her.  The poor husband had to spend 5 years with everyone he knew thinking he had killed his wife when he had nothing to do with it!  There was absolutely nothing remotely connecting the real killer to the woman and that is why the police never solved it on their own.  Someone with loose lips is the most common way crimes actually get solved in the real world.  Unfortunately, civilians watch TV shows where investigators find all kinds of clues left by hapless criminals in pristine conditions, get results back from DNA, blood, soil tests the same day (this usually takes months as the labs are overloaded with samples from other crimes), seem to have access to online info that no one in the real world has, have a whole army of investigators working on the same case (when there is more likely only one or two working on a case), and there is always some investigator with superhuman ability to deduce what happened -  and the crime is solved in days or hours rather than weeks or months as is usually the case.  So everyone thinks the "real" police are incompetent or flat out corrupt when that just isn't reality.

 

Sorry for the long post, but this is a sore spot for a police wife!

I understand cases are complicated. However, the approach to crime should be the same regardless of who it is committed against, or who commits it. Police forces are not without bias, just as nobody else in this world is without bias. We've had an epidemic in this country of missing and murdered indigenous girls and women that speaks for itself. Unfortunately the sad fact of the matter is that justice has not been sought in the way that it should have been in some communities. I don't doubt that the majority of police officers out there are excellent people doing a very difficult job. I however am not one for the "shit happened get over it people" approach nor do I think that attitude is helpful at all when healing must occur between communities. It puts the responsibility for moving past the past squarely on those who were wronged, and there needs to be recognition and reconciliation and work done for improvement on both sides when things go wrong. I'm speaking in a wider sense now and not only regarding policing. When we move past things that have been difficult or hurtful historically all parties are responsible for taking part in the process. Helpful dialogue and education is what's required, not a get over it and move on attitude. And all too often that attitude only exists among those who aren't aware of the full extent of oppression and suffering that has occurred, or they just can't identify with it. 

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3 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

And you believe that bungling up a case is grounds for rejecting police support for a cause that needs support?

 

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't claim that. I'm simply saying maybe instead of always throwing judgement here and there we can think about the nuances in issues. Particularly when we don't belong to or identify with the communities in question. 

 

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31 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

 

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't claim that. I'm simply saying maybe instead of always throwing judgement here and there we can think about the nuances in issues. Particularly when we don't belong to or identify with the communities in question. 

 

 

So why did you bring up, in your words, "the police bungle up the case of a serial killer who was targeting that community:"?

 

It would seem that bungling has nothing to do with the issues, especially since that happened in Canada and isn't related to the news article in my OP. The police here have been making huge strides in support, often in the face of criticism from conservative elements, so for Auckland pride to do this is a very short sighted slap in the face.

 

No one is throwing judgement around. I'm criticising the short-sightedness of a small minority within the communities in question. The fact that Rainbow Trust also pulled support would indicate they agree with me. The Rainbow Trust is an advocate group for LGBT rights and they disagree with said members of Auckland Pride who told the police to fuck off.

 

Your entire point seems to be that there has been historical tensions in the past (true) and therefore Auckland Pride are now justified in telling the police they aren't welcome. This doesn't follow for reasons outlined above. The irony of a group that wants to be all inclusive now excluding a particular group is almost too much to bear.

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5 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

So why did you bring up, in your words, "the police bungle up the case of a serial killer who was targeting that community:"?

 

It would seem that bungling has nothing to do with the issues, especially since that happened in Canada and isn't related to the news article in my OP. The police here have been making huge strides in support, often in the face of criticism from conservative elements, so for Auckland pride to do this is a very short sighted slap in the face.

 

No one is throwing judgement around. I'm criticising the short-sightedness of a small minority within the communities in question. The fact that Rainbow Trust also pulled support would indicate they agree with me. The Rainbow Trust is an advocate group for LGBT rights and they disagree with said members of Auckland Pride who told the police to fuck off.

 

Your entire point seems to be that there has been historical tensions in the past (true) and therefore Auckland Pride are now justified in telling the police they aren't welcome. This doesn't follow for reasons outlined above. The irony of a group that wants to be all inclusive now excluding a particular group is almost too much to bear.

No, that is not my point, that they are justified in telling the police to fuck off. Obviously, telling the police they aren't welcome is doing very little to improve anything at all. If you read my above post, I was discussing why dialogue should occur on both sides, not telling people to fuck off.

My point is that you can strive to be unbiased in policing, in policy, in government, in everything else, but that at the end of the day, bias still exists although we live in a time when most organizations and communities are trying to minimalize that (some religious communities being major exceptions of course).

 

If you're asking if I take issue with your point above, I don't. I take issue with the "it's in the past, get over it" attitude for reasons stated above, so I will not repeat them.

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People need to separate jobs from ideology. Police forces include gay, straight, bi, lesbian and every race and sex. The police are not a single minded group of robots, its a massive range of humanity working together. If gay officers want to show solidarity for the community they are part of, then being excluded by the people demanding inclusion must really be a slap in the face. 

 

The thing that annoyed me most with the gay pride parades in the past is they failed on their primary goal of showing they are just normal people. When you see the man in the fishnet vest and arseless chaps being interviewed and saying "I just want to be treated like every one else" I think he missed the point. March in suits or in your normal causal wear. Show people you are just like them so they can empathise. But when you appear on a float dressed as a half naked cowboy with a studded paddle in one hand and waving a dildo with the other, you are not going to shake conservatives of their view that you are all sexual deviants. 

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53 minutes ago, Wertbag said:

People need to separate jobs from ideology. Police forces include gay, straight, bi, lesbian and every race and sex. The police are not a single minded group of robots, its a massive range of humanity working together. If gay officers want to show solidarity for the community they are part of, then being excluded by the people demanding inclusion must really be a slap in the face. 

 

The thing that annoyed me most with the gay pride parades in the past is they failed on their primary goal of showing they are just normal people. When you see the man in the fishnet vest and arseless chaps being interviewed and saying "I just want to be treated like every one else" I think he missed the point. March in suits or in your normal causal wear. Show people you are just like them so they can empathise. But when you appear on a float dressed as a half naked cowboy with a studded paddle in one hand and waving a dildo with the other, you are not going to shake conservatives of their view that you are all sexual deviants. 

That's kind of the point of a parade, is it not? Surely it's not going to be too popular with a bunch of conservatively dressed folks up there? The point of parades is to have fun and frankly you don't have to win acceptance from people by appearing to be like them - it's on them to accept you as you are. 

The thing that annoys me is that "normal" must be equated with conservative dress in the first place. Surely by now we can accept that some of us are more flamboyant even in our everyday expression, and that it's fine and completely normal. Personally I just have a problem with one group of people applying their norms to another and saying you must fit in if you want to be accepted, and you cannot stand out. 

Every workplace has a culture. You can't ignore that. Sometimes the culture is positive and healthy and accepting and sometimes not so much. A lot of work places are now working to improve cultures that have harmed individuals within their ranks or communities they interact with. 

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3 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

That's kind of the point of a parade, is it not? Surely it's not going to be too popular with a bunch of conservatively dressed folks up there? The point of parades is to have fun and frankly you don't have to win acceptance from people by appearing to be like them - it's on them to accept you as you are. 

The thing that annoys me is that "normal" must be equated with conservative dress in the first place. Surely by now we can accept that some of us are more flamboyant even in our everyday expression, and that it's fine and completely normal. Personally I just have a problem with one group of people applying their norms to another and saying you must fit in if you want to be accepted, and you cannot stand out. 

Every workplace has a culture. You can't ignore that. Sometimes the culture is positive and healthy and accepting and sometimes not so much. A lot of work places are now working to improve cultures that have harmed individuals within their ranks or communities they interact with. 

Arseless chaps are the point of the parade?  Floats showing bondage scenes to really give that great family vibe?

It is completely possible to have fun, to show people that you are reasonable, caring and decent people, and to use the parade to enforce the image that gays are not horrible, sinful, evil people.  Overly sexualised scenes fail in that mission.  Its all about the message you are sending and arseless chaps sends a very wrong message.

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An article saying Operation Shooting Foot destroys progress. I agree. Backwards if you ask me.

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/12/opinion-not-letting-police-march-destroys-35-years-of-progress.html 

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