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TexasFreethinker

Are "pro-life" christians short-sighted?

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An evangelical friend of mine posted on social media during the last election that voting for a pro-choice candidate meant the christian god would hold you accountable for the "murders" of fetuses due to that vote.

 

That's some twisted logic, to say the least - what about any sins committed by the pro-life candidate if they are elected via your vote, etc?  But, it made me start thinking that the christian "pro-life" (I prefer to call them pro-government-forced full term pregnancies) folks are thinking short term here.

 

If you believe that fetuses have souls

and If you believe that all aborted fetuses are going to heaven (most fundamentalists believe this from what I can tell and the Catholic church has recently issued statements affirming this over fetus purgatory) 

and If you believe that many, if not most, born humans are going to hell (Narrow is the gate...)

 

then, the smartest behavior- the behavior that leads to the most souls in heaven - would be to vote for pro-choice candidates and to stop trying to prevent women from making choices about their own bodies and having abortions when they decide it's the best alternative.

 

And, following the twisted logic of my evangelical friend, if you vote for pro-life candidates, or do other things to prevent abortions, you will be held responsible by the christian god for every soul who would have been aborted and gone to heaven, but instead, was born and then died "without Jesus" and went to hell.

 

Just to be clear, I don't believe fetuses or post-fetuses like me have souls, I don't believe in the christian god (or any other gods) and I believe women should have control over their own bodies.  

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Christianity uses fear, threats, and intimidation to achieve their agenda’s.  No one familiar with Christianity should be surprised by their well established tactics.

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Actually no on the very rare occasion, and I cannot believe Im saying this. I agree. Abortion is murder. 

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They are thinking short term. I understand this twisted logic all too well, and came to the same conclusion myself when i fully thought out the abortion issue from their perspective. Since according to my ex-church, less then 99.9 % of people on earth are going to heaven, but aborted fetuses are, why aren't they out there shouting on the streets for pro-choice representatives, as it would gain them more souls in heaven (then will surely end up there if these babies grow up "lost" to god).

I've been tempted to use this argument with my family, but so far I've mostly stayed away from the abortion debate due to the fact it's an explosive issue, and anything I say is used as fodder against me, and I don't care to be the focus of their ire.

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Yes.  I thought exactly the same thing, even as a christian.  Abortion is the ultimate "Get Out of Hell Free" card.

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I am pro-life, just to state my view: the bible says that we are known at conception, you may be familiar with the verse that goes, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb...Your eyes saw my unformed body..." so a fetus is still made in the image of God, and while may not by modern scientific definition be a life, if you terminate that life before it can grow into the person it will be, that is you having the power of life and death and choosing death for someone else. I am very pro contraception, though!

 

And as for killing someone so they can get into heaven, "shall we do evil so that good shall come of it?" that idea itself is literally mocked in the bible.

 

Miriam

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@Miriam

Your point of view may not be popular here but you did you homework and gave reasons to support your POV.

 

Kudos.

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4 hours ago, Miriam said:

I am pro-life, just to state my view: the bible says that we are known at conception, you may be familiar with the verse that goes, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb...Your eyes saw my unformed body..." so a fetus is still made in the image of God, and while may not by modern scientific definition be a life, if you terminate that life before it can grow into the person it will be, that is you having the power of life and death and choosing death for someone else. I am very pro contraception, though!

 

And as for killing someone so they can get into heaven, "shall we do evil so that good shall come of it?" that idea itself is literally mocked in the bible.

 

Miriam

Miriam, the idea is not so much that you should kill "someone" specifically to get them into heaven.  But rather, should a believer mind his/her own business and don't have an abortion if they don't want one, but let everyone else make their own decisions since in the long run that could end up sending more souls to heaven (if that's something that you believe in and is important to you.)

 

As for the last verse you quoted, the bible is full of stories where evil was done (multiple genocides commanded by god/Jesus for example) so that the bible's version of good could come of it.  You'll get no argument from me that that bible is full of contradictions.

 

I am glad that you are pro-contraceptive and am astounded that many people who want the government to enforce full term pregnancies are not.  Believe it or not, just because I'm pro-choice doesn't mean that I think abortions are a panacea or don't understand that abortions can be traumatic to the woman.  My personal opinion is that we should do all we can to prevent unwanted pregnancies.  However, in the end, I think it is up to each woman to make the choice about terminating a pregnancy.

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A case can be made for life beginning at conception,  but I think a stronger case can be made for abortion to be illegal if their is a heart beat. At that point, at least in my mind, it is a viable human being. I am comfortable with calling aborting a viable baby, with a heart beat, murder or at least manslaughter. 

 

Our laws are often confusing and contradicting. Aborting a viable baby isn’t even illegal, but a DUI driver that kills a pregnant woman will likely be charged with double homicide. At least one of those two scenarios is very wrong IMO. 

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59 minutes ago, Geezer said:

A case can be made for life beginning at conception,  but I think a stronger case can be made for abortion to be illegal if their is a heart beat.

 

An even much stronger case can be made regarding the beginning of brainwaves. Prior to brainwaves being present, the fetus cannot feel anything, despite having a heartbeat, so there's no cruelty factor whatsoever.

 

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12 hours ago, Miriam said:

I am pro-life, just to state my view: the bible says that we are known at conception, you may be familiar with the verse that goes, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb...Your eyes saw my unformed body..."

 

Hi Miriam - thanks for sharing your perspective.  I think the difficulty in quoting a verse to establish that the Bible (and therefore God) is Pro-Life is that you also have to look elsewhere to get a comprehensive take on how the Bible / God views human life...

 

You quoted Psalm 139:13-14, which no doubt conveys a beautiful idea - that the God of the universe knows us so intimately even before we are born...  But is that how God views things?  Or just how the author of that Psalm views things?  Are we to take anything expressed by the author of a Psalm as reflecting God's heart and make it into a doctrine?

 

If you flip literally 2 chapters backward, you'll find Psalm 137:9.  "Blessed is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!".  Should we take this psalmist's statement as reflecting God's heart too?   Should we make a doctrine out of it?  (any reason you give to discredit this psalmist's perspective can be used to discredit the psalmist in ch 139...)

 

Also, consider I Samuel 15:1-3.  "...Thus says the Lord of hosts... kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child".  This was for crimes committed by the Amalekites 400 years previously.

 

Think about it:  God ordered Israel to KILL NURSING CHILDREN.  To pull them off of their mother's breast and literally smash / beat / stab / bludgeon them to death.  

 

What did these nursing babies ever do to this God??!!

 

I find it logically incoherent to conclude - based on one psalmist's narcissistic view of his own importance - that a God who would order such unmitigated cruelty toward already-born human beings has the least regard for unborn ones.

 

That being said, as a humanist having no religious motivations, I oppose  the smashing/beating/stabbing/bludgeoning of all babies at all times, even in light of what the Amalekites did to the Israelites.

 

What about you?  Do you believe it was right for the Israelites to murder nursing babies for crimes committed 400 years earlier?

 

Would YOU obey God and hack up those babies if you were an Israelite soldier?

 

After hacking up several babies, would you have gone home and slept well that night, feeling comforted by the loving compassion God has for even not-yet-born babies?  

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52 minutes ago, Insightful said:

 

Hi Miriam - thanks for sharing your perspective.  I think the difficulty in quoting a verse to establish that the Bible (and therefore God) is Pro-Life is that you also have to look elsewhere to get a comprehensive take on how the Bible / God views human life...

 

You quoted Psalm 139:13-14, which no doubt conveys a beautiful idea - that the God of the universe knows us so intimately even before we are born...  But is that how God views things?  Or just how the author of that Psalm views things?  Are we to take anything expressed by the author of a Psalm as reflecting God's heart and make it into a doctrine?

 

If you flip literally 2 chapters backward, you'll find Psalm 137:9.  "Blessed is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!".  Should we take this psalmist's statement as reflecting God's heart too?   Should we make a doctrine out of it?  (any reason you give to discredit this psalmist's perspective can be used to discredit the psalmist in ch 139...)

 

Also, consider I Samuel 15:1-3.  "...Thus says the Lord of hosts... kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child".  This was for crimes committed by the Amalekites 400 years previously.

 

Think about it:  God ordered Israel to KILL NURSING CHILDREN.  To pull them off of their mother's breast and literally smash / beat / stab / bludgeon them to death.  

 

What did these nursing babies ever do to this God??!!

 

I find it logically incoherent to conclude - based on one psalmist's narcissistic view of his own importance - that a God who would order such unmitigated cruelty toward already-born human beings has the least regard for unborn ones.

 

That being said, as a humanist having no religious motivations, I oppose  the smashing/beating/stabbing/bludgeoning of all babies at all times, even in light of what the Amalekites did to the Israelites.

 

What about you?  Do you believe it was right for the Israelites to murder nursing babies for crimes committed 400 years earlier?

I'm too lazy to find out so I'm asking, what did the Amelekites do, what were they guilty of?

I can bet it sure wasn't as innocent as eating an apple from an apple tree and then damning all mankind not only for this 'sin' but to hell as well if they didn't believe that god sent himself down and sacrificed himself.

 

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6 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I'm too lazy to find out so I'm asking, what did the Amelekites do, what were they guilty of?

I can bet it sure wasn't as innocent as eating an apple from an apple tree and then damning all mankind not only for this 'sin' but to hell as well if they didn't believe that god sent himself down and sacrificed himself.

 

The Amalekites fought the Israelis when they were leaving Egypt and looking for a place to settle.  They were protecting their own land from a band of millions (if you believe the bible) of immigrants looking for a place to take over.  The Israeli god waited 400 years to make the Amalekites pay for this "sin" of self defense by commanding his people to kill all the Amalekites including their infants.  

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On 12/26/2018 at 12:34 PM, Miriam said:

I am pro-life, just to state my view: the bible says that we are known at conception, you may be familiar with the verse that goes, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb...Your eyes saw my unformed body..."

 

In addition to the great points raised by Insightful in response to this, I'd like to also recommend that you take the time to read Numbers 5:11-31 and really think about what it's talking about.

 

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11 hours ago, TexasFreethinker said:

The Amalekites fought the Israelis when they were leaving Egypt and looking for a place to settle.  They were protecting their own land from a band of millions (if you believe the bible) of immigrants looking for a place to take over.  The Israeli god waited 400 years to make the Amalekites pay for this "sin" of self defense by commanding his people to kill all the Amalekites including their infants.  

I have removed myself far enough away from my fundamentalism and religion that I am seriously horrified I once taught this trash. It's unbelievable that people are living (and wasting) their lives controlled by some words in a book written thousands of years ago, which happened to survive and was convenient for the early church, so they could gain control of the masses. Sometimes I just want to scream 'wake the hell up!' when I deal with my own family.

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I know about the massacres etc. committed in the Old Testament, I don't have a good answer for you there, but it's Sunday day after tomorrow and I can ask Vijay or Mark - I'll get back to you either Sunday afternoon or Monday morning. If you like, why don't you give me the exact passages (I'll take the one from Numbers) if you have them, and I'll also get a general answer?

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I just read Numbers - if you don't believe that a curse from a priest would harm someone, as the God is an imaginary God, why would that bother you? And also, in Jewish law, infidelity is punishable by death for men, too.

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5 minutes ago, Miriam said:

I just read Numbers - if you don't believe that a curse from a priest would harm someone, as the God is an imaginary God, why would that bother you? And also, in Jewish law, infidelity is punishable by death for men, too.

 

It appears that you missed the point. In Numbers 5, what is the "harm" befalling the woman?

 

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39 minutes ago, Miriam said:

I know about the massacres etc. committed in the Old Testament, I don't have a good answer for you there, but it's Sunday day after tomorrow and I can ask Vijay or Mark - I'll get back to you either Sunday afternoon or Monday morning. If you like, why don't you give me the exact passages (I'll take the one from Numbers) if you have them, and I'll also get a general answer?

Miriam, why are you looking to others for answers?

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I don't know everything - do you? If we did, there would be no need for teachers.

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28 minutes ago, Miriam said:

I don't know everything - do you? If we did, there would be no need for teachers.

No, I don't know everything. In fact, during my deconversion I figured out exactly how little I knew. (because I trusted teachers/pastors who 'taught' me)

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I trust them if they can explain adequately and I agree - if I disagree, I say so, and we discuss it. That's good teaching, not lecturing! Anyway, I'll ask, like I said.

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8 hours ago, Miriam said:

I just read Numbers - if you don't believe that a curse from a priest would harm someone, as the God is an imaginary God, why would that bother you? And also, in Jewish law, infidelity is punishable by death for men, too.

 

8 hours ago, Citsonga said:

It appears that you missed the point. In Numbers 5, what is the "harm" befalling the woman?

 

Since you didn't respond to my question, I'll help you out a little. I don't know what translation you use, but when the KJV says, "when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell," that is an idiom for miscarriage. In fact, here are a few other translations of the phrase:

  • "when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell" (NIV)
  • "when the Lord induces a miscarriage and your womb discharges" (CEB)
  • "when the Lord makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge" (NRSV)
  • "because you will have a miscarriage and your belly will swell" (VOICE)

Now, Miriam, think about this. If the God of the Bible is commanding the priest to give women a potion that will induce a miscarriage, then what act is God having the priest actually commit?

 

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9 hours ago, Miriam said:

I don't know everything - do you? If we did, there would be no need for teachers.

Isn't god supposed to know everything?  And shouldn't his spirit dwell within you?  You don't really have faith, do you?  You don't really believe that god is all he's cracked up to be.  If you did, your first thought would have been to pray for knowledge and wisdom.  But it wasn't.  Your first thought was to ask Vijay about it.  This demonstrates you have more faith in humans than you do in god.

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10 hours ago, Miriam said:

I know about the massacres etc. committed in the Old Testament, I don't have a good answer for you there, but it's Sunday day after tomorrow and I can ask Vijay or Mark - I'll get back to you either Sunday afternoon or Monday morning. If you like, why don't you give me the exact passages (I'll take the one from Numbers) if you have them, and I'll also get a general answer?

Can there be a "good" answer for genocides commanded by god and Jesus (The Father and I are One)?  If you think so, then you may be falling for the anything-god-does-is-good ploy.  If that's the answer you get from your teachers, or the god-works-in-mysterious-ways answer, then it's really not worth discussing since those arguments claim that your god is above morality.

 

The god of the bible is big on killing children and I think one of the worst stories is when Pharaoh has decided to let the Hebrew slaves leave Egypt, but bible god hardens Pharaoh's heart and makes him decree that the Hebrews can't leave.  This is a big setup so bible god can show his awesome power and send an angel of death to kill all the firstborn children of the Egyptians.  That's just pure evil. 

 

You asked for verses where bible god (and by extension Jesus) orders genocide so here are a few...

Deuteronomy 2:32-34

Deuteronomy 3:3-6

Deuteronomy 13:12-15

Deuteronomy 20:16-17

Numbers 21:2-3

I Samuel 15:2-3, 7-8

Numbers 31:7-40  (not quite full genocide - god told them they could keep virgins as sex slaves)

Joshua 6:21

Joshua 10:28-40 seven genocides in these verses

Jeremiah 50:21

 

There are so many cases that it becomes mind-numbing and you have to remember that if all these stories are true they are accounts where not only were adults wiped out, but innocent, terrified children were as well.  These were children who, as you pointed out, the bible says god knitted in their mother's womb.  If you believe that god is all-knowing, then he knew when he knitted these children that he would soon be ordering "his people" to kill them.  It's sickening.

 

 

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