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TexasFreethinker

Are "pro-life" christians short-sighted?

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10 hours ago, Miriam said:

if you don't believe that a curse from a priest would harm someone, as the God is an imaginary God, why would that bother you? 

It's true that most of us on this site don't believe in bible god (or any gods for that matter).

 

The reason we are here discussing these topics is that there are many people, such as yourself, who do believe.  Many believers aren't aware of how immoral the bible is, or the problems and contradictions in the bible.  Why is it important for us to point these out?  We are hoping that good people will realize that what they've been taught or assumed isn't always accurate and will begin to think for themselves.  Several of us ex-christians became ex-christians because we did start studying the bible without blinders on. 

 

Why do I care whether people believe in the god of the bible?  One reason is that bible believers often try to push their beliefs onto others as voters and elected officials or even as terrorists.  Good people have done bad and evil things because they think their bible or god wants them to and I would like to see that come to an end.

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Citsonga - your argument is that God made the priest give an abortion - I'm afraid that makes no sense from a point of view that to assume that the law is ordained by God (or the priest is just doing what he wants) then you have to assume that God is real and you're behaving like Job, not to mention taking one verse and ignoring the rest.

 

Redneck - I must not have faith? If I have a headache and take paracetamol instead of praying for healing, I don't have faith then? God can't work through humans and medical science, he just has to work the way you want him to? If God's wisdom resides in me therefore I just have to pray for it, why have the bible at all? 

 

Texas, have patience, I'll get back to you tomorrow or the day after

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4 hours ago, TexasFreethinker said:

Why do I care whether people believe in the god of the bible?  One reason is that bible believers often try to push their beliefs onto others as voters and elected officials or even as terrorists.  Good people have done bad and evil things because they think their bible or god wants them to and I would like to see that come to an end.

 

To follow that, all belief in anything must end, including Humanism etc. because all belief can be pushed onto others, people will always find an excuse to do evil things, you don't need the bible for that.

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1 hour ago, Miriam said:

 

To follow that, all belief in anything must end, including Humanism etc. because all belief can be pushed onto others, people will always find an excuse to do evil things, you don't need the bible for that.

The point being made here is that Christianity is a meme - one that can spread wildly. It also tends to dull the rational and logical thinking abilities of humans as they take everything on blind "faith" - and that can have disastrous consequences. How many people in America are currently throwing their hands up in the air saying "god elected Trump, therefore what he's doing is god's will." Personally, I know quite a few of them.

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Any belief can become that, because people will use any belief system to justify what they want. Blaming God for your decision doesn't make Christianity the cause of all trouble in America

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On 12/25/2018 at 6:37 PM, TexasFreethinker said:

and If you believe that all aborted fetuses are going to heaven (most fundamentalists believe this from what I can tell and the Catholic church has recently issued statements affirming this over fetus purgatory) 

Huh. Is this really the majority belief? (maybe it is) In my circle of fundamentalism, back in the day, some people proudly floated the possibility that all unborn children go to hell and were created for the purpose of suffering for God's glory. If you had a problem with that it's because you were an ignorant human whose understanding is clouded by sin.

 

That's what my memory says at least. Then again they were never consistent and changed their interpretation/view based on what was most convenient for them at each moment in time.

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2 hours ago, Miriam said:

 

To follow that, all belief in anything must end, including Humanism etc. because all belief can be pushed onto others, people will always find an excuse to do evil things, you don't need the bible for that.

I think there is a difference.  With Humanism, you don't have a supernatural override, but you can with religion.  A good Humanist could say it's not good for me to fly a jet full of people into a skyscraper.  A good religious person might think the same thing, but then say, but I think god is telling me to - he wants me to sacrifice my life for him and get rid of people who don't believe the right things about him or who have offended him.  Think about the story of Abraham - a great man as far as the bible is concerned - who knew better than to kill his son, but who decided to kill him anyway since he thought his god was telling him to.

 

Same thing can happen with topics other than murder.  A good Humanist might say, I'm not a homosexual, but I think homosexuals should have equal rights and leave it at that.  A good religious person might generally believe in equal rights, but then their bible tells them that god doesn't like homosexuality and even has ordered that homosexuals be killed.  A few might advocate killing homosexuals based on that, but a large number of them have voted (at least in America) against equal rights based on religious beliefs.  Religious voters have also opposed mixed marriages, equal rights for women, and have supported slavery all based on their religious beliefs. 

 

I fully agree that bad people can be religious or non-religious.  It's the supernatural override aspect of it that concerns me and that only exists if you think that you are in contact with a god one-to-one or via his book and that god can tell you to do things - especially when those things like religious discrimination or religious terrorism are described in the book that is supposed to be a god's instructions.

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7 minutes ago, DestinyTurtle said:

Huh. Is this really the majority belief? (maybe it is) In my circle of fundamentalism, back in the day, some people proudly floated the possibility that all unborn children go to hell and were created for the purpose of suffering for God's glory. If you had a problem with that it's because you were an ignorant human whose understanding is clouded by sin.

 

That's what my memory says at least. Then again they were never consistent and changed their interpretation/view based on what was most convenient for them at each moment in time.

That's what the Southern Baptists (my denomination) taught - any child, before they reached the "age of accountability" would go to heaven when they died.  I've heard that consistently from other fundamentalists I've discussed abortion with, but I'm sure there are some who believe otherwise - god seems to have a hard time making his plans and will known in a clear way that everyone can understand.  Since Catholics get to make stuff up as they go along, my understanding is that for a long time they taught that the souls of aborted fetuses went to purgatory, but have recently said basically "Who knows?  For all we know they probably go straight to heaven."

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1 hour ago, TexasFreethinker said:

I think there is a difference.  With Humanism, you don't have a supernatural override, but you can with religion

 

Then there is nothing to discuss - you are claiming the superior high ground of a belief, saying it can't be misused. I can't debate with that.

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1 hour ago, TexasFreethinker said:

That's what the Southern Baptists (my denomination) taught - any child, before they reached the "age of accountability" would go to heaven when they died.

I think southern baptists are big on the concept of "free will" so they tend to defend a world view in which people's actions are accountable for their judgement in the afterlife. I grew up in the Calvinist tradition, where people who went to hell went to hell not because of anything they did but because God enjoyed burning them. It was much more natural in that worldview to simply accept all babies go to hell.

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3 hours ago, Miriam said:

 

Redneck - I must not have faith? If I have a headache and take paracetamol instead of praying for healing, I don't have faith then? God can't work through humans and medical science, he just has to work the way you want him to? If God's wisdom resides in me therefore I just have to pray for it, why have the bible at all? 

Precisely.  If god really is omnipotent and omniscient, he shouldn't need to use humans, human technology, human medical science, or any other human institution, up to and including the church and the bible, to get his work done or his message across.

 

Yet he does... so much so that the most effective displays of his "power" always seem to come from human sources... almost as if he doesn't actually exist, and it is simply humans doing all of the work.

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2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 If god really is omnipotent and omniscient, he shouldn't need to use humans, human technology, human medical science, or any other human institution, up to and including the church and the bible, to get his work done or his message across.

But why shouldn't he, if it's part of his creation? You're just demanding that God does exactly what you want him to, the way you want him to.

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3 hours ago, Miriam said:

Citsonga - your argument is that God made the priest give an abortion

 

It's not my argument. It's what is claimed in your own Bible in Numbers 5:11-31.

 

3 hours ago, Miriam said:

I'm afraid that makes no sense from a point of view that to assume that the law is ordained by God (or the priest is just doing what he wants) then you have to assume that God is real

 

It's relevant because you believe the Bible. You assume that the law was ordained by God, so you can't just ignore what it says. If the Bible were true, as you contend it is, then that would mean that God commanded priests to give women a potion that would cause an abortion if they were unfaithful.

 

3 hours ago, Miriam said:

you're behaving like Job

 

Not in any way, shape, or form. I'm merely pointing out to you that there is a Bible passage that has God commanding priests to perform abortions. That and other things brought up in this thread are serious problems for you.

 

3 hours ago, Miriam said:

not to mention taking one verse and ignoring the rest.

 

I'm not the one here ignoring parts of the Bible. You are. I just showed you a passage that has God himself commanding priests to perform abortions via a potion, and you are trying to sidestep it.

 

The fact is that the Bible is not a consistent whole that entirely supports your position. It's a mixed bag, and you don't seem to want to own up to the fact that your holy book has your God commanding abortions. That is a problem for you, because you claim to believe in the Bible and its God.

 

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11 minutes ago, Miriam said:

But why shouldn't he, if it's part of his creation? You're just demanding that God does exactly what you want him to, the way you want him to.

I'm demanding nothing.  I am simply asking questions based upon observations.  Putting words in my mouth, or misrepresenting my position, is intellectually dishonest on your part; but it would make it easier for you to present a strawman, if you'd prefer to do that instead of just ignoring the points I've made.

 

All that aside, why should your god not be held to the promises he made?  Did he not say that by his stripes we are healed?  So why should he need to use modern medicine to do so?  And why does he not heal amputees?  Did god not say that whatever we ask in his name, he would do?  So why can't he answer prayer without human intervention?  Didn't he name himself jehovah jireh, the provider?  So why to the needy and helpless have to depend on the charity of good samaritans?

 

I demand nothing of god; but I do expect that promise makers keep their promises.  Yet it is abundantly clear that god either can't or won't live up to the very promises he made himself.

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12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm demanding nothing.  I am simply asking questions based upon observations.  Putting words in my mouth, or misrepresenting my position, is intellectually dishonest on your part

OK - If God created everything, including humans, and that includes everything, why should he not act in the way he wants, including through humans, his own creation? Saying, "No, I want you to perform miracles, all the time, whenever I want them." looks like demanding, to me.

 

How is it not God's will if he chooses to act through humans? And when something miraculous does happen, that's just coincidence, chance, not God?

30 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

that God commanded priests to give women a potion that would cause an abortion if they were unfaithful.

Yes. This is judgement, not saying that it is right to abort children whenever you want to.

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The reason I said like Job, is this is saying to God, "You are unjust, because you judged this woman, therefore I will use that form of judgement in the way I want". It's the same as saying capital punishment means murder is given the tick by the government

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First, demonstrate that the god of the Bible has reverence for human life. It wouldn't appear so.

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3 minutes ago, florduh said:

First, demonstrate that the god of the Bible has reverence for human life.

If God cared nothing for human life, he wouldn't have sent Jesus in the first place. Love your neighbour as yourself would not be the great and second commandment. We wouldn't be told not to murder, or steal. There would be no rules at all, if God didn't care, why try and speak at all? 

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4 minutes ago, Miriam said:

The reason I said like Job, is this is saying to God, "You are unjust, because you judged this woman, therefore I will use that form of judgement in the way I want". It's the same as saying capital punishment means murder is given the tick by the government

 

Wrong. I'm simply showing you that the Bible has your God commanding the very thing that you claim to be immoral.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Miriam said:

OK - If God created everything, including humans, and that includes everything, why should he not act in the way he wants, including through humans, his own creation? Saying, "No, I want you to perform miracles, all the time, whenever I want them." looks like demanding, to me.

You will either need to quote exactly where I made the demand , "No, I want you to perform miracles, all the time, whenever I want them." Or you will need to admit that you are, in fact, deliberately misrepresenting my position (which is tantamount to lying); and offer a retraction.

 

I will continue addressing your points once you have addressed mine in an intellectually honest manner.

 

Or are you scared?

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Then capital punishment does mean it's OK for you to kill anyone? You are taking a judgement and saying it sets down that God condones abortion. If the woman was not unfaithful, no miscarriage. 

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4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You will either need to quote exactly where I made the demand , "No, I want you to perform miracles, all the time, whenever I want them." Or you will need to admit that you are, in fact, deliberately misrepresenting my position (which is tantamount to lying); and offer a retraction.

 

I will continue addressing your points once you have addressed mine in an intellectually honest manner.

 

Or are you scared?

Okey doke! Then I will do the same - you cannot say I have no faith in conclusion to something I have said, that is misrepresenting my position - were you lying? 

 

And you didn't actually answer me, there - are you scared? :) 

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4 minutes ago, Miriam said:

If God cared nothing for human life, he wouldn't have sent Jesus in the first place. Love your neighbour as yourself would not be the great and second commandment. We wouldn't be told not to murder, or steal. There would be no rules at all, if God didn't care, why try and speak at all? 

Demonstrate that those rules are unique to bible god and do not appear in any other religion which precedes christianity.

 

Demonstrate that he did, in fact, send jesus.  Use real evidence, not "the bible says."  

 

Build your case.  We'll wait.

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1 minute ago, Miriam said:

Okey doke! Then I will do the same - you cannot say I have no faith in conclusion to something I have said, that is misrepresenting my position - were you lying? 

You demonstrated a lack of faith when you chose human council over prayer.   I misrepresented nothing.

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5 minutes ago, Miriam said:

Then capital punishment does mean it's OK for you to kill anyone? You are taking a judgement and saying it sets down that God condones abortion. If the woman was not unfaithful, no miscarriage. 

 

How is it capital punishment to terminate a fetus that had not committed any crime? Are you perfectly fine with abortion if commanded by God? Do you think it's OK for the fetus to be terminated even though it had no part in the affair?

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