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TexasFreethinker

Are "pro-life" christians short-sighted?

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1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You demonstrated a lack of faith when you chose human council over prayer.   I misrepresented nothing.

Cop out. Never mind.

 

Also, what I said was:

21 minutes ago, Miriam said:

OK - If God created everything, including humans, and that includes everything, why should he not act in the way he wants, including through humans, his own creation? Saying, "No, I want you to perform miracles, all the time, whenever I want them." looks like demanding, to me.

You did say that if God doesn't perform miracles, in the sense of magically making something happen, and instead does something through humans, then he is impotent (yes, you said not omnipotent). How is that not you saying he must do things in the way you want?

 

7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Demonstrate that those rules are unique to bible god and do not appear in any other religion which precedes christianity.

 

Demonstrate that he did, in fact, send jesus.  Use real evidence, not "the bible says."  

 

Build your case.  We'll wait.


Yep, Judaism. Which Christianity is based on. The bible is the record of what Jesus did, and his teachings. What evidence exactly do you want? 

 

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3 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

 

How is it capital punishment to terminate a fetus that had not committed any crime? 

My point was, if God causing the abortion, as an act of judgement, means abortion is acceptable by God, then executing a criminal, in judgement, by the courts, is the courts saying killing people is acceptable.

 

5 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

Are you perfectly fine with abortion if commanded by God? Do you think it's OK for the fetus to be terminated even though it had no part in the affair?

No, because I am not God. Apparently, you are not OK with abortion, because the fetus never has a part in the affair, ever. Unless that was aimed at me, and you are OK with people aborting, even though the fetus isn't responsible

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14 minutes ago, Miriam said:

And you didn't actually answer me, there - are you scared? :) 

Umm... that's the whole point of not addressing your points until you start addressing mine.  English not your first language?

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8 minutes ago, Miriam said:

 

Also, what I said was:

You did say that if God doesn't perform miracles, in the sense of magically making something happen, and instead does something through humans, then he is impotent (yes, you said not omnipotent). How is that not you saying he must do things in the way you want?

 

Please provide a direct quote of me saying this.  Remember that anyone reading this has access to the entire thread and can check for themselves whether I made these statements or not.  Or, admit that, once again, you are simply making things up (lying) in an effort not to address the points I've made.

 

Again, we'll wait.

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12 minutes ago, Miriam said:

Yep, Judaism.

Which was based on Zoroastrianism and several other ancient mid-eastern religions.  Try again.

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10 minutes ago, Miriam said:

No, because I am not God.

 

I was asking if you were OK with abortion if it was commanded by God. Are you saying you're not OK with abortion commanded by God? Or is abortion OK when God commands it?

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17 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Which was based on Zoroastrianism and several other ancient mid-eastern religions.  Try again. 

Nope. Check your own sources. And what evidence did you want about Jesus? You didn't say.

 

15 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

 

I was asking if you were OK with abortion if it was commanded by God. Are you saying you're not OK with abortion commanded by God? Or is abortion OK when God commands it? 

I would say, yes, if God commanded a judgement of abortion, especially if, according to this passage, it would be on the woman's own head for infidelity, and if assuming, because we are looking at the bible, that God is a perfect and righteous judge.  Are you saying that because of this, God has said abortion is always OK?

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25 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Remember that anyone reading this has access to the entire thread and can check for themselves whether I made these statements or not.  Or, admit that, once again, you are simply making things up (lying) in an effort not to address the points I've made.

Lets go with that, then. We will not discuss further until a moderator has checked, and determined whether I am clearly lying.

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3 minutes ago, Miriam said:

I would say, yes, if God commanded a judgement of abortion, especially if, according to this passage, it would be on the woman's own head for infidelity, and if assuming, because we are looking at the bible, that God is a perfect and righteous judge.

 

So, then, are you saying that abortion is not inherently evil?

 

5 minutes ago, Miriam said:

.Are you saying that because of this, God has said abortion is always OK?

 

I said nothing of the sort. 

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Precisely.  If god really is omnipotent and omniscient, he shouldn't need to use humans, human technology, human medical science, or any other human institution, up to and including the church and the bible, to get his work done or his message across.

 

But, since you asked. Explain to me, if you say here that God "shouldn't need to use humans etc." then aren't you saying you know what God should do? That God should do as you think he should?

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1 minute ago, Citsonga said:

I said nothing of the sort. 

I'm just taking your argument the next logical step.  God here caused an abortion in judgement, therefore it is not wrong to abort babies.

 

2 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

So, then, are you saying that abortion is not inherently evil?

Interesting question - what is evil without the morality of God? Without the concept of sin etc, is it possible to do evil, and then who decides what is evil? If it's the majority, that raises a lot of problems.

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The God character of the Bible not only kills fetuses but grown ass folks as well. Bunnies, kittens and puppies as well. He does not hold life sacred. And goddammit, you know exactly what I'm referencing.

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16 minutes ago, Miriam said:

Lets go with that, then. We will not discuss further until a moderator has checked, and determined whether I am clearly lying.

No need for a moderator.   Either you can produce the quote, or you can't.  

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12 minutes ago, Miriam said:

 

But, since you asked. Explain to me, if you say here that God "shouldn't need to use humans etc." then aren't you saying you know what God should do? That God should do as you think he should?

No.  If I said "he wouldn't need to..." then perhaps I'd be presuming too much.  As it stands, I said "he shouldn't need to..."  Subtle differences in meaning.  Especially if English isn't your first language.  Or if misrepresenting someone's position is your only go-to.

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4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No need for a moderator.   Either you can produce the quote, or you can't.   

No, I quite like the idea of getting a impassive perspective - I'll just wait and see if you are allowed to say something in other words, then get annoyed when I read in between the lines.

 

6 minutes ago, florduh said:

The God character of the Bible not only kills fetuses but grown ass folks as well. Bunnies, kittens and puppies as well. He does not hold life sacred. And goddammit, you know exactly what I'm referencing.

Sorry - if we are going to start on a completely different topic, could we start another thread? It gets a little confusing, otherwise.

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5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  If I said "he wouldn't need to..." then perhaps I'd be presuming too much.  As it stands, I said "he shouldn't need to..."  Subtle differences in meaning.  Especially if English isn't your first language.  Or if misrepresenting someone's position is your only go-to.

Check your English - wouldn't is the passive, saying shouldn't means you think otherwise

 

I still think I'll wait for a moderator, here

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4 minutes ago, Miriam said:

I'm just taking your argument the next logical step.

 

No, you're not. You're acting as though I believe the Bible is true, but I no longer do. The only reason I've brought up this Bible issue is because you say you do believe it, making its contents an issue for you.

 

8 minutes ago, Miriam said:

God here caused an abortion in judgement, therefore it is not wrong to abort babies.

 

So there are cases where abortion isn't wrong? So you don't believe abortion is murder?

 

10 minutes ago, Miriam said:

Interesting question - what is evil without the morality of God?

 

That doesn't answer the question, though I gather from your previous statement that you would not call abortion inherently evil now, right? I probably should have asked you these questions before bringing up Numbers 5, because I strongly suspect that you would've responded differently when you weren't aware that the Bible has God commanding abortions.

 

21 minutes ago, Miriam said:

Without the concept of sin etc, is it possible to do evil, and then who decides what is evil? If it's the majority, that raises a lot of problems.

 

Basing morality on the flawed writings of ancient superstitious people raises a lot of problems.

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11 minutes ago, Miriam said:

Check your English - wouldn't is the passive, saying shouldn't means you think otherwise

 

I still think I'll wait for a moderator, here

Suit yourself.  You're free to PM them at any time.

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2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Suit yourself.  You're free to PM them at any time. 

I'm new here - what are their screen names?

 

10 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

You're acting as though I believe the Bible is true, but I no longer do. The only reason I've brought up this Bible issue is because you say you do believe it, making its contents an issue for you.

For this argument to work, we must assume, only in the interests of the argument, that what the bible is saying is true. Doesn't mean I think you do

12 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

So there are cases where abortion isn't wrong? So you don't believe abortion is murder?

Yes, I believe abortion is murder. Please read what I am saying more carefully, I haven't changed my position.

 

As I said, for this to work we have to agree whether we are assuming the bible to be true, therefore God is sovereign and evil has that meaning.

14 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

Basing morality on the flawed writings of ancient superstitious people raises a lot of problems. 

I so far haven't said that how Christians behave is perfect - I have been told that if we were disbanded and you were allowed to decide what should and should not be done by your morality, the world would be a much better place. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and mind, and strength, and you shall live your neighbour as yourself. Your country was founded on those principles. I think followed properly, it wouldn't raise problems, but humans will never follow them properly.

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1 minute ago, Miriam said:

I'm new here - what are their screen names?

Florduh, Margee, buffetphan, skipnchurch.  Or you could reach out to webmdave who founded and runs this website.

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4 minutes ago, Miriam said:

Thank you!

Good luck!

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1 hour ago, Miriam said:

For this argument to work, we must assume, only in the interests of the argument, that what the bible is saying is true. Doesn't mean I think you do

 

And taking the Bible as true actually raises a lot of problems for Christianity. 

 

1 hour ago, Miriam said:

Yes, I believe abortion is murder. 

 

This also presents a problem for you. If abortion is murder and the Bible story of God commanding abortion is true, then that would mean that God was commanding murder.

 

1 hour ago, Miriam said:

Please read what I am saying more carefully, I haven't changed my position.

 

I have read your comments carefully. In what you were addressing there, I was only asking questions, so perhaps you need to read more carefully. 

 

1 hour ago, Miriam said:

I so far haven't said that how Christians behave is perfect

 

And I haven't said anything along those lines.

 

1 hour ago, Miriam said:

I have been told that if we were disbanded and you were allowed to decide what should and should not be done by your morality, the world would be a much better place.

 

If everyone would base their morality on genuine empathy and respect for each other, that would be far better than people basing their morality on ancient superstitious texts at the expense of genuine empathy and respect. 

 

1 hour ago, Miriam said:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and mind, and strength, and you shall live your neighbour as yourself. Your country was founded on those principles.

 

This nation was not founded on religion, but rather freedom of religion.

 

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3 hours ago, Miriam said:

If God cared nothing for human life, he wouldn't have sent Jesus in the first place. Love your neighbour as yourself would not be the great and second commandment. We wouldn't be told not to murder, or steal. There would be no rules at all, if God didn't care, why try and speak at all? 

 

The problem with this line of thinking is it's presupposing that the contents of the bible are true. And we know that some definitely are not true.

 

Love they neighbor, do unto others etc is a human trait found among all cultures, some who have never heard of Jesus. You also don't need God to tell you not to steal, murder etc. None of these require a God to understand why we would have these values.

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4 hours ago, Miriam said:

But why shouldn't he, if it's part of his creation? You're just demanding that God does exactly what you want him to, the way you want him to.

It really is passing strange that he appeared in the old testament but now he's nowhere to be found. 

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